how to handle last year sorghum before July brassicas mix

[NorthPotter]

Last year had my first ever sorghum plot and I actually had enough frost free days for it to mature. This year, within this old sorghum plot I am rotating in my brassicas mix (planting brassicas in July). However, until July I am planting oats & crimson/red clover. Come july when I till those under I will have banked some N for the brassicas mix.
Am I rotating these correctly? If yes, then the question is how do I handle the old sorghum stalks at planting time. Should I: a)broadcast the oats/CC into the standing sorghum stalks then brushhog the stalks so the thatch mess lays overtop of the spring mix b) flatten the stalks over top of the oats/CC mix c) instead of brushhog should I lightly disc the standing stalks first, then broadcast the oats/CC afterwards d) something else? Stalks are currently 2-3' high.

If I am not rotating these correctly then what should be my spring rotation mix until my July Brassicas mix? I must plant my brassicas in July because sometimes I get frosts in mid September.

I guess it would be similar to rotation a corn crop into a clover mix the following year.

 

[dipper]

Sounds like a plan, there is no doubt brassicas benefit from the n clover makes. I'm gonna try Crimson clover myself for the first time this spring. Brassicas always seem to work out best in my small plots and large deer population

 

[Bill]

I can't answer all those questions with a knowledgable reply.

But I think oats use N so they may defeat your intention of storing it. As for the sorghum stalks, if their like corn, get them on the ground to rot, the sooner the better. Big stalks like that can be hard to disk. If it were me I'd plant then brush hog the stalks for OM.

 

[ruskbucks]

If you can I would brush hog them stalks now, then disc before planting. The best time to do it is when they are bone dry or frozen. When I used to plant corn, it was a battle with the stalks when I cut them in spring. The stalks wouldn't break up due to the moisture and they would end up plugging up my plow. It worked great when they were frozen. Another option would be to burn them.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I think Bill's correct on the oats using the N. If I remember a post by Lickcreek, he said any GRASS crop ( corn, wheat, rye, oats, triticale, sorghum, etc. ) use lots of N from the soil. Legumes replace N ( clover, alfalfa, peas, chickling vetch, etc. ). That's why he advised the rotation that he did. FWIW.

 

[wiscwhip]

If you don't "harvest" it, i.e. pull the crop off the field, most nutrients are still in the plant, thus still in the field, it just takes longer for them to cycle back through the chain to be reused by a future crop. Keep in mind, cereal grains(and other grasses as BnB stated) other than rye are net users, whereas rye is not. Rye has the ability to "pull" leached nutrients up from deeper in the soil profile than any other cereal grain due to it's massive root system. I would agree with chopping the sorghum stalks with a brush hog after spreading the new seed. One thing on the choice of crimson clover for short term use like this, it can be somewhat expensive, so if you can find another suitable annual clover for less money, you could use that in place of the crimson. This is why LC recommended berseem in most applications other than sandy soil, which he recommended crimson or some type of vetch(IIRC) in that case.

 

[NorthPotter]

But I think oats use N so they may defeat your intention of storing it. As for the sorghum stalks, if their like corn, get them on the ground to rot, the sooner the better. Big stalks like that can be hard to disk. If it were me I'd plant then brush hog the stalks for OM.

Many thanks bill. The Oats do use N but the information I read about says that they are still recommended as a cover for the crimson...a necessary part of the green manure. I do not know why.

 

[NorthPotter]

If you can I would brush hog them stalks now, then disc before planting. The best time to do it is when they are bone dry or frozen. When I used to plant corn, it was a battle with the stalks when I cut them in spring. The stalks wouldn't break up due to the moisture and they would end up plugging up my plow. It worked great when they were frozen. Another option would be to burn them.

this is a great boots on the ground tip. Thanks.

 

[NorthPotter]

I think Bill's correct on the oats using the N. If I remember a post by Lickcreek, he said any GRASS crop ( corn, wheat, rye, oats, triticale, sorghum, etc. ) use lots of N from the soil. Legumes replace N ( clover, alfalfa, peas, chickling vetch, etc. ). That's why he advised the rotation that he did. FWIW.

Thanks. yes, I went back last night and read some of my old bookmarks and you are spot on correct. ;) For some reason LC still recommended either oats or rye in the clover rotation mix....IDK??

 

[NorthPotter]

If you don't "harvest" it, i.e. pull the crop off the field, most nutrients are still in the plant, thus still in the field, it just takes longer for them to cycle back through the chain to be reused by a future crop. Keep in mind, cereal grains(and other grasses as BnB stated) other than rye are net users, whereas rye is not. Rye has the ability to "pull" leached nutrients up from deeper in the soil profile than any other cereal grain due to it's massive root system. I would agree with chopping the sorghum stalks with a brush hog after spreading the new seed. One thing on the choice of crimson clover for short term use like this, it can be somewhat expensive, so if you can find another suitable annual clover for less money, you could use that in place of the crimson. This is why LC recommended berseem in most applications other than sandy soil, which he recommended crimson or some type of vetch(IIRC) in that case.

Many thanks. I wanted to use Rye as my cover for the clovers but for some reason oats are recommended for spring planting while rye was recommended for late summer/fall. Do you think I would be ok with the rye instead of oats in spring? Not looking to invent something new...just want to duplicate what already works.

Many thanks for info about Berseem. Last night I went back and while reading some of my old bookmarks and had seen that about berseem but had forgot about it when I posted. So now it will be a mix of berseem/crimson.

We have two recommendations for plant new seeds first then chop up stalks with brushhog after seeding.
We have one recommendation for brushhog stalks first, then disc, then plant new seeds.

I was unsure which would be best myself which is why I posted.

 

[Bill]

Dipper? Someone?,

I think for some reason winter rye needs a winter. Something to do with producing good seed heads if I remember correctly. In your case it shouldn't matter since you're going to terminate it anyway. I've planted clover in the spring with rye as a nurse crop only to terminate the rye with cleth later in the summer. It works fine.

 

[Bill]

The sooner the sorghum hits the ground to decompose the better. So either way.

 

[wiscwhip]

Bill is on the right track. Rye only needs to "vernalize"(overwinter) if you want it to produce a crop(i. e. seeds), if it is just for short term cover cropping, it will be fine as a spring planted companion crop for clover. In this case, I would go with whatever is cheaper and more available, rye or oats.

 

[ruskbucks]

Many thanks. I wanted to use Rye as my cover for the clovers but for some reason oats are recommended for spring planting while rye was recommended for late summer/fall. Do you think I would be ok with the rye instead of oats in spring? Not looking to invent something new...just want to duplicate what already works.

Many thanks for info about Berseem. Last night I went back and while reading some of my old bookmarks and had seen that about berseem but had forgot about it when I posted. So now it will be a mix of berseem/crimson.

We have two recommendations for plant new seeds first then chop up stalks with brushhog after seeding.
We have one recommendation for brushhog stalks first, then disc, then plant new seeds.

I was unsure which would be best myself which is why I posted.

I was wondering the same thing last year on why oats instead of rye. Lickcreek seems to really favor rye over oats, but in spring he suggests oats. I planted a oat/pea/clover crop last year at the end of March in N WI last year. I was really happy with the results. I had some use of deer/turkey using this plot in early spring. I sprayed the cover crop in mid June and planted brassicas 7/3. I lightly disked 3/4 of the dead oats before I planted and the other I just broadcasted the rape into the dead thatch. The part I disked, the plants did way better. They came in thicker and taller for some reason. I have to agree with Bill on the stalks get them on the ground so they can start breaking down. If you disc them after they are down it will only help decompose them. If you broadcast that small seed and then run a brushhog over it wouldn't that blow the seed everywhere to the sides of the mower? I don't know, just a thought.

 

[wiscwhip]

If you broadcast that small seed and then run a brushhog over it wouldn't that blow the seed everywhere to the sides of the mower? I don't know, just a thought.

I've never personally seen an issue with this, but that's not saying it couldn't happen I suppose. Your mower deck would have to create an awful lot of suction to lift seed off the ground, given the small surface area for the "wind" to catch the seed and be able to impart that "lift" affect.

 

[kabic]

If you don't "harvest" it, i.e. pull the crop off the field, most nutrients are still in the plant, thus still in the field, it just takes longer for them to cycle back through the chain to be reused by a future crop. Keep in mind, cereal grains(and other grasses as BnB stated) other than rye are net users, whereas rye is not. Rye has the ability to "pull" leached nutrients up from deeper in the soil profile than any other cereal grain due to it's massive root system. I would agree with chopping the sorghum stalks with a brush hog after spreading the new seed. One thing on the choice of crimson clover for short term use like this, it can be somewhat expensive, so if you can find another suitable annual clover for less money, you could use that in place of the crimson. This is why LC recommended berseem in most applications other than sandy soil, which he recommended crimson or some type of vetch(IIRC) in that case.

How long does it take Rye to breakdown to make available the nutrients it pulls from deeper in the soil?

The same, more or less time than other grains?

Pair rye with a winter annual legume such as hairy vetch to offset rye’s tendency to tie up soil nitrogen in spring.

http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...Text-Version/Nonlegume-Cover-Crops/Cereal-Rye

 

[wiscwhip]

How long does it take Rye to breakdown to make available the nutrients it pulls from deeper in the soil?

The same, more or less time than other grains?


http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center...Text-Version/Nonlegume-Cover-Crops/Cereal-Rye

SARE has some great info!

I was going to say that it does decompose slower than both oats and wheat, which the SARE report confirms. The N that the rye has tied up before decomposing isn't really lessened by the addition of the vetch(or other legume crop) it is merely offset by the N that the legume produces and releases upon termination of the vetch(legume) crop. This gives you some short term N(from the legume) and some "slow release" N(from the decomposing rye) for later in the season as the rye residue continues to break down.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Whip - Thanks for reminding me ( and us ) about the rye " mining " nutrients from the soil and making them available later. I'd forgotten about THAT part of it. ( Post #6 ).

Just a FWIW - at our camp we use oats as a nurse crop for spring-planted clover. The deer eat the young oats in spring while the clover is establishing, and later on we usually mow them down to get sun on the clover. The deer usually keep a fair amount of oats thinned down to where the clover gets a good start, and once the oats are mowed, the clover explodes. Some areas we let the oats stand and they make heads & deer and turkeys clean the tops of grain. Some volunteer oats that may come up are never a bad thing !!

 

[wiscwhip]

Whip - Thanks for reminding me ( and us ) about the rye " mining " nutrients from the soil and making them available later. I'd forgotten about THAT part of it. ( Post #6 ).

Just a FWIW - at our camp we use oats as a nurse crop for spring-planted clover. The deer eat the young oats in spring while the clover is establishing, and later on we usually mow them down to get sun on the clover. The deer usually keep a fair amount of oats thinned down to where the clover gets a good start, and once the oats are mowed, the clover explodes. Some areas we let the oats stand and they make heads & deer and turkeys clean the tops of grain. Some volunteer oats that may come up are never a bad thing !!

Yup, as I said, either will work. If you're soil really needs the OM and had less than stellar pH, rye is likely the best choice in a soil building situation like that. Oats would be a better choice on soils that need less improvement. The palatability of oats makes it preferable in situations where less soil building is needed. That said, unless your soil is really in need of help, which ever is cheaper would be fine.

 

[shawnv]

The only issue is you're going from a crop that uses a lot of N to one that stores it to one that uses a lot again. I honestly would suggest a mix of buckwheat and AWP to produce some N before the brassicas.