How to grow dwarf chinkapin oaks (DCOs) from seed - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
1. If I buy a used fridge and put the DCO in that with a temp of about 40 degrees that would store them in soil OK.
Do you agree with #1.
2. Would you leave them in the rootmaker 18s or would you put the DCOs in a deep tub with growing medium to help the length of the tap root?
3. Different way - will DCO in rootmaker 18s give me a good outcome?
Thanks. I have a used fridge that may be available for $50. That seems to be the best path if it is good for the DCO.
Catscratch - I have a squirrel proof cage that I built for my seedlings. It would be where I could protect them from the tree rats.
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A used fridge would be perfect. I would keep them in the 18's since they will slowly continue to develop a root system. I personally don't worry too much about tap roots etc. I think the benefits of a more branched root system FAR outweigh the risk of delaying the development of the tap root. (Just consider what happens to tap roots with bare root trees - they get lopped off and then the trees have to develop a root system plus a taproot). Of course this is just my opinion and I'm sure there a lots of people who would disagree. Why don't you put 3 of your trays in the fridge and continue with 1 tray in the grow box and see how things turn out. That way we all learn from your various techniques. If you want, I'm sure I can spare enough DCO acorns so that you can do a 5th tray. Let me know.

I have DCO acorns in nothing more than a ziplock bag. Most have germinated but they seem to stall out if you keep your fridge as cold as possible without them freezing. I have a second fridge in the garage that I use for all my seed storage. Last year they made it just fine until I was able to start planting outside in Rootmaker 18s around first week in April.
Matt

Craigslist came through after two tries. First fridge got sold out from under me. I scrambled around and in less that 24 hours got a used fridge for $60 delivered.
I put four trays of express 18s in the new fridge plus a tub with the remainder of my DCOs on January 28th. I have attached a photo.
Thank the lord this fridge is wide enough my express 18s fit inside without any modifications. I would say I have 100 to 105 DCO in this fridge. I direct seeded some DCO earlier in the fall.

Experience has taught me to test things. Am I going to get what I should or just assume it is as advertised.
To test for the right temperature I have a regular thermometer and an indoor / outdoor thermometer in this unit. I hope within a day or so I can get dial in good on this new resource.
The photo has a red arrow showing the indoor / outdoor sensor and the blue arrow shows the regular thermometer. I am aiming for 34 degrees.
I am very motivated about establishing DCO on my farm.
Thanks for reading this thread.

My immediate question - Do I put these trays in a plastic bag or do I leave them without a bag?
I watered them all very well before I put them in the operating refrigerator.
You experienced guys - please help me get it right.
This fridge has nothing in it but "habitat items."
Thanks for any help you can extend.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
My immediate question - Do I put these trays in a plastic bag or do I leave them without a bag?
I watered them all very well before I put them in the operating refrigerator.
You experienced guys - please help me get it right.
This fridge has nothing in it but "habitat items."
Thanks for any help you can extend.
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I would be careful that the seed is not too wet in the fridge. Usually there is enough moisture in the potting mix to make it through the stratification time. If it is too wet for too long the seed will become soft and rot. Or the radicle (first) root will turn black and rot.
I would not put them in a plastic bag.
Good luck they are one of my favorite trees!

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Originally Posted by NurseryDad
I would be careful that the seed is not too wet in the fridge. Usually there is enough moisture in the potting mix to make it through the stratification time. If it is too wet for too long the seed will become soft and rot. Or the radicle (first) root will turn black and rot.
I would not put them in a plastic bag.
Good luck they are one of my favorite trees!
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DCOs don't need stratification. A refrigerator will quickly dry out any moisture. That is why they have a vegetable crisper to keep vegetables from drying out too quick.
I used an XXL Ziploc bag. I slid the tray in it and left the end open. This kept a little condensation in the bag and I didn't have to water them much. If you don't use a bag, be sure to check them regularly for moisture and water them when needed.
Thanks,
jack

Hey guys, I have these sitting in my window right now, growing away..... I hope to transplant them to their final destination here in a couple months after the threat of frost is gone...
My question is, when I pull them out of the clay pots, do I leave all the potting soil/miracle grow soil on the root, or do I try to get most of that off of there before dropping into the ground?

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Originally Posted by dreaming bucks
Hey guys, I have these sitting in my window right now, growing away..... I hope to transplant them to their final destination here in a couple months after the threat of frost is gone...
My question is, when I pull them out of the clay pots, do I leave all the potting soil/miracle grow soil on the root, or do I try to get most of that off of there before dropping into the ground?

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I'm presuming you did not use 18s to propagate them since I see them in clay pots. With regular smooth pots that don't root prune, there is a high likelihood of root circling or j-hooking. While the trees may look fine when young, the root constriction caused by this can retard the tree quiet a bit. So, I would recommend checking the roots and manually pruning them to remove any circling or j-hooking. This means disturbing the root system, removing the medium and planting them when dormant in the fall like bare root trees.
For folks starting them in 18s and transplanting to larger root pruning containers, the dense root system created by the air pruning stays completely intact when planting. This is why they don't have the transplant shock of bare root trees and don't experience a year of sleep, and a year of creep before they leap.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Correct.... I didn't know anything about these special root growing objects you guys use.... but it's too late now... I already moved them once, from gallon milk jugs, to these bigger clay pots....
So are you saying they would not survive if I removed them from the clay pots this Spring, and plant them out at their final destination ?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreaming bucks
Correct.... I didn't know anything about these special root growing objects you guys use.... but it's too late now... I already moved them once, from gallon milk jugs, to these bigger clay pots....
So are you saying they would not survive if I removed them from the clay pots this Spring, and plant them out at their final destination ?
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They will survive just fine......it can be a real shock on them to move them when they are little like that and already with leaves. I killed a few last year doing what you are trying to do, but I also didn't care for them.....just plant and forget.
If it was me, I would replant them in a fabric pouch....trim roots if needed....and plan on planting them in the fall while dormant, or close to dormant.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreaming bucks
Correct.... I didn't know anything about these special root growing objects you guys use.... but it's too late now... I already moved them once, from gallon milk jugs, to these bigger clay pots....
So are you saying they would not survive if I removed them from the clay pots this Spring, and plant them out at their final destination ?
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I wouldn't go quite that far. It really depends on what the roots look like when you remove them.
Here is something to consider. When I start trees in rootmakers under lights and plant them in the spring directly from 18s, survival rates aren't great if I don't provide supplemental water because the root system is pretty small. More survive than don't but they don't thrive. When I start them a little earlier and transplant to 1 gal RB2s indoors and then plant in the spring, survival rates are much better without supplemental water than planting from 18s, but they usually don't thrive. Again the root system is fairly small. When I keep them over the summer and plant them in the fall they nearly all thrive.
My recommendation would be similar to CAS, pull them from clay pots and snip the tap root manually. Then put them in a root pruning container (a 1 gal RB2 or similar container would work well). Keep them at home where you can control the environment over the summer and plant them in the fall.
Keep in mind that trees are pretty tough. We can do a lot of stuff wrong and nature can surprise us. Folks have been growing trees in smooth sided containers for years. While the trees may have issues down the road, once established, most will live.
Just to provide a little example, my first approach was to plant trees in volume from the 18s and 1 gal rb2s in the spring. Many of those trees are only a few feet tall, but a few are now between 6 and 9 feet tall after 3 years. In contrast, last year I changed my approach to planting few trees but in the fall from larger RB2s. All of these trees were in the 5' to 6'+ class and had a caliper of 3/8" to 3/4" when planted in the fall. Quite a big difference.
Thanks,
Jack

Here is a recent picture of my DCOs. The front left and rear right trays have DCOs. The rear left tray where the tops are cropped in the picture are just a few late to germinate chestnuts.

Thanks,
Jack

Need some good advice from the experienced!
I purchased a fridge and put my trays of DCO in it. I believe they have been doing well. I have an indoor outdoor temperature unit to track the temp.
My date to pull them out of the fridge is March 17th - about St. Pat's day.
I have a wire cage that allows sunlight and keeps the varmints out.
When I pull them from the fridge, can I put them direct into that outdoor cage as long as watch the temps?
Or do I put them inside my house under some grow lights with reflectors. My grow box room is taken.
I am nervous about the DCOs. I spent some money to do it right and hope I have not messed up.
Thanks for any help.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Need some good advice from the experienced!
I purchased a fridge and put my trays of DCO in it. I believe they have been doing well. I have an indoor outdoor temperature unit to track the temp.
My date to pull them out of the fridge is March 17th - about St. Pat's day.
I have a wire cage that allows sunlight and keeps the varmints out.
When I pull them from the fridge, can I put them direct into that outdoor cage as long as watch the temps?
Or do I put them inside my house under some grow lights with reflectors. My grow box room is taken.
I am nervous about the DCOs. I spent some money to do it right and hope I have not messed up.
Thanks for any help.
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Wayne,
This is my first go with DCOs as well, so others with more experience may know if DCOs have something special. I will speak to trees in rootmakers in general.
There are several indoor to outdoor issues.
1) Hard frost damaging leaves of trees started in the winter under lights.
2) Cool night temperatures and shorter day length may slow growth or stall trees that have been actively growing under lights at indoor temperatures.
3) Light sensitivity due to increased intensity of sunlight verses artificial light can cause leaf damage in trees started under lights over the winter.
4) Root damage cause by a hard frost.
With you methods of starting DCOs, 1) thru 3) don't apply since they have no top growth. The do apply for me since I started mine under lights.
Number 4) applies to both of us. I've been watching the long term weather forecast. The further out the forecast, the less reliable, but it does give you an idea for planning. Our last threat of frost generally occurs around April 15th. My general plan each year is to watch the weather forecast when we get to April 1st. I have too many trees to take them back and forth. If I don't see any nights in the first two weeks of April that are near freezing I start taking them outdoors. This applies to trees started over the winter under lights.
This year I really think we are going to have an early spring. My forecast only shows one night down to 36 degrees and the next closest is 39 degrees between now and April 15th. That is all still to far out for me to trust it. In a couple weeks, I'll check it again and I may make an early start on acclimating my actively growing trees.
My pawpaw trees are a closer match to your DCOs. They have one growing season under their belts. I kept them in a cold room over the winter and they are still dormant. I actually already took them outside. The difference is that they are in 1 gal RB2s not 18s. Even if I screwed up and we get a night around freezing, it may kill a few root tips but won't likely kill the trees with root systems that big. Also, all of these pawpaws need transplanted. I decided to wait until I see bud swell to make sure the trees are alive before taking time and resources to put them in 3 gals. Since I trust the forecast for a week or so out within a few degrees, I'm confident these will begin to break dormancy in that period. Once I transplant them, the new mix will insulate the roots even if we get a colder night after that. I am taking some risk, but at the worst case, I'll need to move 50+ trees back in doors if there is a radical change in the forecast.
In your case, the issue is the 18s. I have found that there is so little media around the roots in 18s and in 18s, roots hit the side of the cell and are directed to grow down along the side to one of the bottom holes where they are pruned. That plastic is not a great insulator and large sections of lateral roots touch it. My guess is the root system of your DCOs are pretty small. I know from a few of mine that fizzled and I dug up.
So, I would say that your could take them outside anytime as long as you monitor the temperature and are willing to take them back in if you have threat of freezing.
I wouldn't see much value in putting them under lights at this point. There is not much time to get a jumpstart and that would bring 1), 2), and 3) into the picture.
If I were you, I'd just follow you current plant and watch temperature and watering closely.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

March 16th has favorable temperatures for days to come. I had March 17th marked as the day to move the DCO out of the fridge.
One day early based upon temperatures I moved 4 rootmaker express 18s trays into my wire cage outside. I also moved one tub that has some DCO in it.
I watered all of these well because the high will be 70 degrees with winds at 15 mph out of the west. They will get 8 hours of sun in their new location.
None of these have any top growth! I think I have done this correctly.
I will be watching temperatures for the nights. If need I will move them indoors over night when necessary.
I welcome the experienced growers with DCOs to weigh in on this plan.
Thanks for reading this post. Thanks to those that have been a big help with the DCO tricks of the trade. I greatly appreciate your guidance.

The attached photo shows the DCO trays and tub in the cage with the front door open.
Thanks for viewing.

Nice setup. Keep us posted on how they work out. Mine were slow. It is looking like I'll end up with 19 if I don't lose any. I hope your method of germination give you better germination rates than I got.

The state of Tennessee is getting some risk of freezing temps for three nights (Sat, Sun and Mon.). Before dark Saturday evening I moved all of the DCOs (4 express 18s plus one tub) into my basement.
I freely admit I have concerns if I will be successful with DCO this first go-round. Have had concerns that I would mess them up and get a piece of humble pie and zero success.
This morning I watered all of the DCOs. I had them on a table top with light overhead. I was excited to see three stems above the growing media. The only time I was more excited was when my first Chinese Chestnuts put on top growth in 2015.
So 3 out of 72 in express 18s is good news for me. I will call it the beginning. All of what I have read, DCOs are particular and can take their time.
I hope for 75 to 80% success but I am not taking anything for granted. Keep in mind, hope is not a prediction.
Thanks for reading this post.

Wayne,
Wise move. The only thing I had outside was my pawpaws that were still dormant. I started transplanting some of them to larger containers on Friday, but when I saw the forecast and noticed a few were just starting to produce leaves, I decided to pull them all indoors. Right now it looks like I can take them back out on Tuesday. I don't see anything close to freezing in the extended forecast, so I may start moving my other trees outdoors including the DCOs.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
So 3 out of 72 in express 18s is good news for me.
.......
I hope for 75 to 80% success but I am not taking anything for granted. Keep in mind, hope is not a prediction.
Thanks for reading this post.
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I hope you see that kind of success as well, but don't hold your breath! I am closer to 50% on the DCOs that I have been growing. Your setup and logic is sound.....can't wait to see how it end up working!

How much growth can I expect out of my DCOs this year? I've heard that year three is when they begin to take off and it's been two years since I planted a bunch. Up till now they didn't do a whole lot. A handful may be a foot tall...

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Twig
How much growth can I expect out of my DCOs this year? I've heard that year three is when they begin to take off and it's been two years since I planted a bunch. Up till now they didn't do a whole lot. A handful may be a foot tall...
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This is my first year, so I can't tell you what to expect. I planted my DCO in 18s under lights this winter. They are still in 18s. They vary in height. The smallest two are just a couple inches tall. The largest is almost 12" tall. I'll try to remember to take an updated picture.
Thanks,
Jack

I took a picture this morning:

Thanks,
Jack

None of my DCO has been exposed to indoor light. I moved them in due to low 30 nights.
This morning they went back out in the outdoor cage. I checked this afternoon and the wind and sun dried those trays good. I watered them good.
I have 8 with sprouts about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. One might be 3/8 inch high. These showed up after exposure to sunlight. They will get good sun and temp on Wednesday. I will check weather reports on Wednesday afternoon.
Jack I thinks your DCO tray look good. Should make good trees!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
None of my DCO has been exposed to indoor light. I moved them in due to low 30 nights.
This morning they went back out in the outdoor cage. I checked this afternoon and the wind and sun dried those trays good. I watered them good.
I have 8 with sprouts about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. One might be 3/8 inch high. These showed up after exposure to sunlight. They will get good sun and temp on Wednesday. I will check weather reports on Wednesday afternoon.
Jack I thinks your DCO tray look good. Should make good trees!
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Wayne,
I don't know if mine look good or not. This is my first try with them so I don't know how there are supposed to look at this stage. There sure is a lot of variety in their growth.
I'm at the farm today. They were calling for a low of 35 on Friday so I was going to wait until the weekend to put mine trees outside. They have changed it and the low on Friday is now 37, so I'll probably start taking trees outside as soon as I get back home.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
This is my first year, so I can't tell you what to expect. I planted my DCO in 18s under lights this winter. They are still in 18s. They vary in height. The smallest two are just a couple inches tall. The largest is almost 12" tall. I'll try to remember to take an updated picture.
Thanks,
Jack
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I'm just hoping to get some growth year 3. The spring of 2014 I just planted them, caged them, and left them to fend for themselves. We had a drought that summer and a rather cold winter so I had a decent amount of die back. Surprisingly every one of them came back in the spring of 2015. Last summer most of them began to develop multiple leaders but most are still under 12". They seem to be rather slow growers at the start. I need to get some fertilizer on them soon.

Twig,
I guess I am wondering how much you water them during the spring and summer.
I would think you would hit them in early April with fertilizer and in early to mid June. I certainly would not fertilize after July 4th. I would want them to harden off good before the fall brings the cooler temperatures.
Got any photos?

Jack.....your trees look good to me based on my experience. The variety of growth is pretty typical for them for some reason....again, they are not the easiest to grow!
I planted a single tray this year and looks like I will end up with about 12 when its all said and done....so....not too back I guess.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Twig,
I guess I am wondering how much you water them during the spring and summer.
I would think you would hit them in early April with fertilizer and in early to mid June. I certainly would not fertilize after July 4th. I would want them to harden off good before the fall brings the cooler temperatures.
Got any photos?
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I'm gonna wait till they spit leaves out to take some pics. I never watered them once I planted them. Originally they received a decent amount of shade from the surrounding ash trees but I've since been cutting them down since they're all dying.

CAS
This is my first rodeo with DCO. You have 12 out 18. I don't know about you but if I am able to get 2/3 success this year, I will be very excited. Obviously, other seeds are easier to grow to trees than DCO.
I have mine in an outdoor cage (protected setting) getting sun. I am watching weather closer than ever to not set them back.
Thanks for your contributions.

I have some DCO in a square dishwashing tub that was converted to start nuts in. It has the same soil but nothing has raised its head out of that group.
I have four trays of 18s that were in the fridge with DCO nuts. I removed my tarp off of my outdoor protection cage this morning. We had storms on Thursday and the tarp works like a charm.
I counted 35 stems above the soil out of 72. Obviously this is very preliminary - but at least they are moving - although it be slowly.
Others started sooner than I did and they have top growth. Our game is approx' 2 months behind their start time.
How small are these little stems? I only count with reading specs on (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) otherwise I would not know how many were there.
They b small!
Got 5 or 6 days of good temps - maybe they become big enough I can leave the glasses by my computer when I am outside counting. Thanks for reading this post.

I am hopeful this is the last time I have to move my DCOs. Tonight our area will have a frost and freezing temps.
Instead of covering the protective cage, I moved everything inside.
Too invested in these potential seedlings to make a bad decision now.

 

[yoderjac]

I am thankful for everyone that has taken time to help me with the DCO process. I purchased a fridge for the DCOs.
I like express 18s but would like to have more capacity next winter.
I want feedback from users that have put their DCOs in different trays to give them 80 to 90 days of chill.
The people logging our farm have put in some great roadways with nice wide banks. I can see DCOs getting used all over the farm.
What trays have your used that are great than 18 per tray?
When did you move the seedling out of the tray it was in and transplant it to a larger container?
Thanks for your help.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I am thankful for everyone that has taken time to help me with the DCO process. I purchased a fridge for the DCOs.
I like express 18s but would like to have more capacity next winter.
I want feedback from users that have put their DCOs in different trays to give them 80 to 90 days of chill.
The people logging our farm have put in some great roadways with nice wide banks. I can see DCOs getting used all over the farm.
What trays have your used that are great than 18 per tray?
When did you move the seedling out of the tray it was in and transplant it to a larger container?
Thanks for your help.
==================================
I started mine in 32s. I put them in the large ziplock bag and put them in the fridge for a month or so and then put them under lights. I transplanted them from 18s to 32s based on advice from Todd. I had no idea when to do the transplant from 32s. I'm sure it was early. I'd say most of the trees are about 4 or 5 inches when I transplanted them. They are still under lights in 18s like the picture I posted above. They are because of the slow growth, and my hazelnuts because of the late start will be my last trees to move out of 18s.
Thanks,
Jack

My DCO trays have been in my outside protective cage (dang tree rats).
Our Friday night temps & Saturday night temps are freezing range. So my DCO trays are inside in the warm.
Sunday morning they go back outside in the cage. Thus far I have avoided mistakes.
You don't really understand the meaning of the word "slow" until you start growing DCO. Twenty years ago I would lacked the necessary discipline to grow these.
Currently, I am doing rather well for the first lap around the track.
We have had severe winds recently. I have to water more frequently because the wind sure dries out the rootmaker 18s quickly. I check them in the morning and in the afternoon each day they are in the protective cage.

Today is Tuesday, April 12th.
Date & High Temp
12th 64 degrees
13th 70 degrees
14th 66 degrees
15th 70 degrees
16th 73 degrees
17th 79 degrees
This information is based on the current forecast for Portland, TN
Needless to say this should be very good for my DCO trays in the outdoor protective cage. I will monitor them in the morning and evening to make sure they have enough moisture. The wind has been drying them out much sooner than normal.
Next week I will begin to monitor the lows for the week. I imagine some Chinese Chestnuts will begin to get planted in their final location after we nurse them to tolerating the full sunlight.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Three year old direct seeded DCO. I expect this one to do a lot of growing this year.

Matt

Matt.
That is a healthy looking DCO. So will it have any protection again browsing?
Do you do anything to address grass / weed competition?

It's n my yard so probably won't protect it. Yes, I need to weed eat and mulch to get rid of the competition. I planted a couple DCOs in my yard with the hopes of having my own supply of nuts one day. Problem is that the other one that I direct seeded died and I haven't replaced it yet.
Matt

 

[yoderjac]

As required it takes more time and effort to grow DCO correctly. Because of tree rats in town, I have built protective cages to protect my seedlings that grow from nuts and acorns.
This photo shows my plastic rain cover for 72 DCOs in four trays of 18s and I have 28 Sawtooth Oak in this cage also.
I leave a few inches of ventilation at the bottom. I have rain in the forecast thru Monday evening. I will protect these from becoming water logged.
Out of 72 DCO I am hopeful to at least get into the 50s on seedlings.
I have three cages with rain covers on them today (two tarps & one plastic cover). One large cage built in 2015 and two the size of the one in this photo - both built this April.
This protects the seedlings and I am not having to eliminate the squirrels.
Thanks for reading this post.

Of the 72....how many are looking good now Wayne?
I ended up with 10 of 18 from my tray.

CAS
With leaves folding out about 25 to 30 have top growth with leaves (although some small) folded out or made.
They are moving forward but I now understand sleep and creep. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I anticipate doing one or two pounds next year. Two years of messing with them should get me well established considering the other trees I hope to establish on my farm.
Photos later ...

CAS
Right now my trays are too damp. It has to do with my timing on watering and then rain hit us. I reorganized all 72 cells in order by size.
Out of 72 cells on May 2nd, I have 13 without any top growth. Some of them look dead - dead to me. I will give them approx. 3 more weeks.
This photo has my best ones - plenty of leaves and they are gaining in size each day.

Most of this tray has well defined leaves. I look forward to how this tray will appear on May 9th - one week from today.

First thing - my photo of the 3rd Best Tray did not turn out. It is raining now - so we can't share that group.
The photo in this post has the 4th best tray. A total of 13 have zero top growth. Some of the DCOs look beyond hope. I believe I should have put the nut lower in the growing media.
Do I believe part of these make it? Yes, I do believe some find the sun. I guess May is my month to wait on them.
Five of these cells have a stem above the growing media.
I hope this helps tell the progress.

Was out inspecting prior year plantings last evening and I'd like to report that the DCOs I planted in May 2014 are doing great! A handful of them are stretching to probably 3' tall but the majority of them seem to continue pushing out more leaders. I've got some weed control I need to address so I'll snap some pics the next time I'm out.

Glad to see others are having success. I posted this picture on another thread related to the hazelnuts on the left, but it is also a good one to show the current status of my DCOs which are on the right.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS

 

[yoderjac]

You can see the date on the post above was the summer of 2016 when I grew them from seed. I planted them at the farm with no protection. I lost a few to a miscommunication with my partner and his bushhog but a few survived. I was driving by today and noticed the first nuts:

Thanks,

Jack