How can a neighbor get so many bucks and me none?

[BJE80]

I know lots of others talk about "doe factories," but I just have never experienced it, and it'd take some serious thought to try to come up with an accurate number of properties I've managed that had way more does than neighboring grounds, but also had way more bucks, as well...It'd be the overwhelming majority of grounds I've managed over the years.

Still, enough people talk about it that I suspect there's something too it and that my management system is the key to way it isn't happening to me. No, I'm not pretending I have some super secret system. It's just offering the deer the best food, water, cover, comfort, feeling of safety and breeding opportunities I reasonably can, while encouraging movements in a way that manufactures low impact/high odds stands.

Do I believe the mature bucks would rather be left alone? Without a doubt I do, but I think most are willing to put up with the girls, as they aren't that big of a hassle, in exchange for a better combo of food, water, cover, comfort, feeling of safety and breeding opportunities than they can get in surrounding areas. Most seem to see it as a fair trade off.

Now, compare that to Big8's situation and that's a different animal. There's a difference between not having as much peace and quiet as you'd like, do to kids and girls running around, then having to fight over and over and over again to rule the area. The longer I ride this rodeo circuit the more convinced I become that most mature bucks don't really enjoy fighting at all and would much rather avoid these legit life threatening encounters.

And it my situation its not like my neighbor doesn't have does. So that theory goes out the window.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Again, u guys in these cameras! U think they are actually a legit scouting tool. They are not!

With all due respect, you aren't using them right if you believe this. Scouting cams are a HUGE advantage IF you use them RIGHT. Can they play with your head? No doubt. Do many rely on them more than they should and use them wrong? No doubt. That said, every year I hunt grounds where I rely 100% of old fashion scouting techniques (public grounds), and would put my success rates at doing so up against anyone without fear of being embarrassed (NOT saying I'm the best in the world, but my success rates on pummeled WI public grounds do show that I can hold my own.).

At the same time, I have been managing 4-5 pieces of private grounds for many, many years now (the specific pieces keep changing, but the total number stays in that range). On them, I run the snot out of cams. I have 51 active on one large piece of ground right now, with 5 on an 80 being the low end. I have no fear of being wrong when I say that, if you use them RIGHT, scouting cams are true game changers for increasing success rates....0 fear of being wrong on that at all.

As a side note, putting a cam in the middle of that swamp WOULDN'T be the "right" way to use them. That'd be self destructive.

Don't listen to these guys over analyzing scenarios for u either. U know your area better than anybody.
Don't let it get into your head, because it is right now!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I KNOW I overanalyze hunting scenarios, deer management, deer behaviors and so on. To me doing so is actually more fun than hunting or killing a big buck ever could be. Am I right every time? Absolutely not, but man do I ever get a rush out of it when I put the pieces together and am proven right or learn something new from the overanalyzing.

Some, like you, are happy just going out and at least somewhat letting the chips fall where they may, and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. Others, like me, are always trying to better understand the "whys" of what is going on and trying to figure out how we can use that to my advantage, and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that, either...so long as you don't let that drive you nuts or suck the fun factor out of the experience. For me, it adds immensely to the fun factor.

 

[chummer]

I think I would rather have those does than bucks. They will come find them when the rut starts. I have seen one buck over 1.5 in 12 years of hunting my property before November. I have always had a few does around. Once November starts I will get a few bucks that I have never seen before. This year is opposite. I have four bucks 3.5 and up and one or two does. I guess I will find out which scenario is better. I had some nasty old does that have disappeared the last two winters so perhaps that is why these bucks set up shop. My land is part of 1000's of acres of continuous timber so if a buck likes solitude it is real easy for him to find it. I plan on hunting opening weekend to catch one of those bucks coming to my plots then I will stay out till last weekend of October. For the last 12 years I have hunted every fri-sun starting in September, that approach has failed miserably. I will get daytime photos until the first weekend of bow season then I will not get one until the last couple days of October. I would say shoot your doe then stay out and let those does hunker down there till the bucks come get them.

 

[BJE80]

I think I would rather have those does than bucks. They will come find them when the rut starts. I have seen one buck over 1.5 in 12 years of hunting my property before November. I have always had a few does around. Once November starts I will get a few bucks that I have never seen before. This year is opposite. I have four bucks 3.5 and up and one or two does. I guess I will find out which scenario is better. I had some nasty old does that have disappeared the last two winters so perhaps that is why these bucks set up shop. My land is part of 1000's of acres of continuous timber so if a buck likes solitude it is real easy for him to find it. I plan on hunting opening weekend to catch one of those bucks coming to my plots then I will stay out till last weekend of October. For the last 12 years I have hunted every fri-sun starting in September, that approach has failed miserably. I will get daytime photos until the first weekend of bow season then I will not get one until the last couple days of October. I would say shoot your doe then stay out and let those does hunker down there till the bucks come get them.

I am a pretty humble guy. And maybe you are right and my whole thought process is wrong. Maybe having those does around are overall better for my hunting than the bucks early in the season and no does. I'm willing to entertain the idea. One thing is in September it gets hard to get those bucks within range with a bow during shooting light. During November they are a lot more willing to take chances and that is when they will be around.

Interesting post for sure.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

As a P.S. to the "doe factory" post, I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen actually seen with my own eyes mature bucks pushed out of areas by other bucks. I've never once saw a doe or group of does push a mature buck off of a small food or water source. We may be talking semantics here, but I believe about the only times does "push" bucks out is when the buck decides he doesn't want to deal with their commotion and leaves 100% on his own...and the does aren't actually "pushing" him out.

That said, I have seen does chase 1.5s out before, both in yearling buck dispersal situations and just because they are both competing for a limited resource (seen them push 1.5s off of food and water sources).

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I have to at least mostly get off this for the day now....Just wanted to say thanks. I love discussing the topics I have today with others that are equally passionate about them. It's been a fun morning!

 

[SD51555]

If anyone could explain the no-bucks or vanishing-bucks phenomenon, they'd be a wealthy man. Anything we see on cam will vanish by October first. And we're on our property at most two days per month during the growing season.

 

[BJE80]

If anyone could explain the no-bucks or vanishing-bucks phenomenon, they'd be a wealthy man. Anything we see on cam will vanish by October first. And we're on our property at most two days per month during the growing season.

That certainly sounds like a food source change. Would that make sense by you?


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[wiscwhip]

I think chummer and I are on the same page. The question remains, do you really need to house those bucks on YOUR property or just have them visit during opportune times. Sure you can always point to the scenarios where they will have to travel near someone else's setups to get to your place and then run the risk of them getting shot, but they will surely leave your place during the rut regardless and they run the same risk anyway. The other thing about having mature deer(does or bucks) take up residence on your place is the fact that they know those surroundings like nothing else and sometimes if even the slightest thing is out of place they will be more apt to bust you than a deer who is not intimately familiar with your ground and everything on it. I am still not convinced that not housing mature bucks on ones property year around is a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination, just look at chummer and his situation, he can try all he wants to permanently house those deer and nature will not let it happen regardless when he gets 25' of snow every winter.

 

[BJE80]

I'm always intrigued by the brassica discussion. Sounds like yours don't get touched till December.

Mine have been getting hit pretty good for about 2 weeks now. Went out today to give a couple plots a shot of fertilizer and found a number of turnip bulbs have eaten. The greens on the plot near my house are getting browsed most every evening/night.

I've always considered my brassicas a early and late season draw. The tops early season and the tubers and bulbs late. Seems to work great as they get hit good all throughout the fall.

 

[bueller]

BJE, your place is new fairly new to you correct? It is my believe that mature bucks find their home range early in life, years before they become mature. The deer numbers in my area are down compared to 10 years ago. But my buck numbers are much higher, especially mature bucks. We've been plotting for over 5 years now. At the beginning we held few if any bucks during the year and were lucky to get a trail cam pic or two of a mature buck during the rut. Now we have mature bucks calling our place home year round. Just have to figure out how to kill them now. My feelings are that these bucks "found" our place in the first year or two of their lives and liked what they had and were comfortable enough to stick around. My new place only a mile away only has a 6 pointer and a spike or two hanging around. This is our first year with plots over there. I anticipate a substantial increase in "resident" bucks in about 3-5 years. Once the young bucks in the area find your place they will continue to frequent it throughout their life IF you provide what they need AND they feel safe doing so.

 

[BJE80]

BJE, your place is new fairly new to you correct? It is my believe that mature bucks find their home range early in life, years before they become mature. The deer numbers in my area are down compared to 10 years ago. But my buck numbers are much higher, especially mature bucks. We've been plotting for over 5 years now. At the beginning we held few if any bucks during the year and were lucky to get a trail cam pic or two of a mature buck during the rut. Now we have mature bucks calling our place home year round. Just have to figure out how to kill them now. My feelings are that these bucks "found" our place in the first year or two of their lives and liked what they had and were comfortable enough to stick around. My new place only a mile away only has a 6 pointer and a spike or two hanging around. This is our first year with plots over there. I anticipate a substantial increase in "resident" bucks in about 3-5 years. Once the young bucks in the area find your place they will continue to frequent it throughout their life IF you provide what they need AND they feel safe doing so.

Gotcha. Purchased the land in 2011. Started plotting in 2012. Got serious about plotting in 2013.

 

[dipper]

So how is a camera going to put a buck on a property? It isn't! Your analogy to some super rich guys property, u manage and run 51 cameras on, in some awesome big buck area is a different planet than bjs 80 acres in north central wi.
Bj needs to find his best stands and hunt them at the right time. He's got to stop listening to other people and gain experience hunting his property.
Guys like u fill his head with how he could do this that or the other thing. He listens expecting all these different theories to fall into place and they don't. I've been seeing it on this and the qdma site for some time.
These guys freak out, thinking their doing something wrong because all these plans aren't falling into place. They come back to us, looking for answers, when he should be the one out there hunting and learning his property himself.
And the cycle just continues....blahblahah

 

[tooln]

I don't have an answer but I'd take doe's over not much of anything.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

So how is a camera going to put a buck on a property? It isn't! Your analogy to some super rich guys property, u manage and run 51 cameras on, in some awesome big buck area is a different planet than bjs 80 acres in north central wi.

A cam won't put a big buck on his ground and the analogy I used has absolutely nothing to do with BJ's situation, but you knew all that already. You're trying to twist up what I said in reply to your statement about "U think they are actually a legit scouting tool. They are not!" and you know it as well as I do. I'm a bit disappointed, Dipper. I thought we'd moved past you trying to twist the things I say into unrecognizable objects long ago.

I agree that BJ needs to gain experience on his property, but disagree with you over not using the resources here to further compliment those experiences.

In this thread, as well as Big8's, please show me how I'm filling "his head with how he could do this that or the other thing." I'm too lazy to go back and review what I wrote in each, but I suggested Big8 didn't change anything, unless shooting younger bucks increased his fun factor. In BJ's case, I'm not suggesting he does anything at all, outside of implementing the improvement plan he has this winter. He asked why there currently weren't any bucks on his ground. I told him I believe there is something on the neighbors' that they currently want more than on his (pretty impossible to argue with that). Based on what I know from him sharing his experiences here and with me personally, he hasn't historically had bucks on his ground. So, it sure wasn't a reach to suggest that he's trying to break their tendencies/history and get them on his ground. If I "filled his head" with anything, it was during the planning process when I said that I believe we could turn that around. In this thread, all I've done is say it will take time and then answer a ? from NH on whether I thought does drove bucks from ground or not.

With that in mind, please list out how I've been filling "his (or anyone else's) head with how he could do this that or the other thing." I really enjoy going back and forth with you dipper, but my days of doing so when you just make general statements that don't at all accurately reflect what I'm doing/saying or twisting things I wrote and try to pretend they applied to some completely different topic are long done. I'll gladly go back and forth with you on the specifics of anything, so long as it's an honest effort on BOTH sides not to misrepresent the other. Anything less than that is just mental masturbation and I don't have the time to waste on that.

 

[wiscwhip]

Steve, don't make me issue a Snake-oil Alert! ;) :p Mental masturbation, good one! I may just have to use that one myself.

 

[chummer]

I think chummer and I are on the same page. The question remains, do you really need to house those bucks on YOUR property or just have them visit during opportune times. Sure you can always point to the scenarios where they will have to travel near someone else's setups to get to your place and then run the risk of them getting shot, but they will surely leave your place during the rut regardless and they run the same risk anyway. The other thing about having mature deer(does or bucks) take up residence on your place is the fact that they know those surroundings like nothing else and sometimes if even the slightest thing is out of place they will be more apt to bust you than a deer who is not intimately familiar with your ground and everything on it. I am still not convinced that not housing mature bucks on ones property year around is a deal breaker by any stretch of the imagination, just look at chummer and his situation, he can try all he wants to permanently house those deer and nature will not let it happen regardless when he gets 25' of snow every winter.

Not to Hijack the thread but I got some great news at the dinner last weekend. An old timer that has been hunting the area for 40 year told me the stream that cuts through the center of my new property is a main migration trail. Even better I am only a couple miles from where they yard up. This 25' of snow may become a good thing.

 

[wiscwhip]

That ought to hook you up fat during the rut!

 

[SD51555]

That certainly sounds like a food source change. Would that make sense by you?
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Grand scheme of things? I would say so. Even though we've done a ton of work on our property, it hasn't begun to alter the landscape or dinner table yet. Last year we barely had a sample plot and that got mopped up in short order. If I were to score our property right now, I'd say we're the same as every other property around us with the exception of two things. We now have a half acre of good looking brassica and rye and I'm also fairly certain we've got the least amount of growing season intrusion on our property vs any within a half mile of each edge.

I'm willing to bet they're moving around with the oaks, and with the hay fields that have been cut recently.

 

[MN Slick]

I would only worry if the bucks weren't showing up in November. I guarantee that your neighbor is wondering where some of his went come rut time. I've experienced hunting a "buck" farm for lack of a better term. Awesome early season farm but if we didn't get one killed before they really starting cruising and chasing we'd be SOL.

One the farms I now hunt imports bucks during the rut. Last year my brother was complaining about no shooters on cam blah, blah. Cam check in early November revealed 4 older bucks had arrived for the rut, one of which has arrived in late October for 3 straight years. Bet the guy getting velvet and early season pics of him wonders where he goes.

The other farm I hunt has a good season long crop of bucks and lots of does BUT come rut some leave and have for 2 or 3 years and some new ones arrive.

Patience Grasshopper!