Habitat consultants

[Dukslayr]

Okay, before I touch off this lightening rod let me preface this by saying am fully aware that most habitat improvement programs can be put together with the help of local agencies and through some trial, effort, blood, sweat, tears, etc. That being said a buddy of mine (who owns several hundred acres up by my farm) and I got to talking about our plans for various things. The more I got to thinking about it there are some really substantial investments that both he and I got to talking about - land improvements, ponds, tower blind locations, installation of new food plots, etc. He and I are both very experienced whitetail hunters and have both been property owners on more than one occasion/farm. We have done all of our own management and planning and have both had a nice degree of success.

All of that being said, I’m curious if anyone has enlisted the use of a consultant to help design a specific plan to meet their individual property/deer hunting goals? If anyone has used (particularly in the Midwest) any paid consultants on your properties I would be very curious to hear your feedback on a few things:

1. Who you used?
2. What it cost you?
3. Whether you were satisfied with the plan they put together for you and if, ultimately, you would use them again on another property?
4. Why or why not on the above.

I’m not looking to get into a debate about consultants and if you’d rather jut PM instead of positing back here that’s fine as well. I think about other things in my life and I employ something to assist me with almost every other significant decision - estate planning, investments, taxes, etc - and with the costs associated with major improvements to land, we are both debating why/why not consider making a small (small in respect to the overall investment we make in our improvements) investment in a consultant if they truly do add real value? Any experiences you can share from personal experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

We have used quite a few consultants that have provided very specific advice. We got general advice and a cost share program consulting with the state forester for our county. We have had several game department biologists come out, review our property, and provide some great ideas and advice over the years. We hired a private forester to conduct a timber sale and to write a forest stewardship plan collaborating with the game commission biologists. His cost was 8% of the timber sale. It was well worth the price for all his services and oversight of the timber harvest. We entered into a USDA NRCS EQIP program. That included a couple visits from USDA biologists who also had some great recommendations. There was no cost for that planning. We about broke even with the EQIP program but got a lot of good wildlife work done that would have otherwise come out of our pocket.

I don't know what your state offers, but ours offers great free resources. That and NRCS programs is where I would start. Once you have exhausted the free resources, there will be holes. In our case the hole was selling timber. We learned a lot using the free consultant resources and it helps us know what kind of questions to ask when we interviewed private foresters and found one we really like that was a great fit for us. For you, the holes may be elsewhere, perhaps someone who understand more about pond construction or something. If you find the right consultant with the right expertise in the right situation, they can save you way more money than they cost. On the other hand, you can hire a consultant that is very sharp and knows exactly what you already know, and is a waste of money.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Dukslayr]

We have used quite a few consultants that have provided very specific advice. We got general advice and a cost share program consulting with the state forester for our county. We have had several game department biologists come out, review our property, and provide some great ideas and advice over the years. We hired a private forester to conduct a timber sale and to write a forest stewardship plan collaborating with the game commission biologists. His cost was 8% of the timber sale. It was well worth the price for all his services and oversight of the timber harvest. We entered into a USDA NRCS EQIP program. That included a couple visits from USDA biologists who also had some great recommendations. There was no cost for that planning. We about broke even with the EQIP program but got a lot of good wildlife work done that would have otherwise come out of our pocket.

I don't know what your state offers, but ours offers great free resources. That and NRCS programs is where I would start. Once you have exhausted the free resources, there will be holes. In our case the hole was selling timber. We learned a lot using the free consultant resources and it helps us know what kind of questions to ask when we interviewed private foresters and found one we really like that was a great fit for us. For you, the holes may be elsewhere, perhaps someone who understand more about pond construction or something. If you find the right consultant with the right expertise in the right situation, they can save you way more money than they cost. On the other hand, you can hire a consultant that is very sharp and knows exactly what you already know, and is a waste of money.

Thanks,

Jack

Good points Jack. My father worked for the Missouri Department of Conservation for 30+ years and I’ve got plenty of intel and relationships there. I have previously had a resource forester out to help write a timber management plan, including current inventory and suggestions for improvements. The plan was pretty specific to the timber it’s self and for good reason. We’ve also had them help with TSI, EQUIP, etc. The service was also free which is also great.

I’m mostly curious on a specific plan to set up a farm for deer hunting success. I know it sounds silly but it’s funny the things some people see that we might be completely blind to that would otherwise be obvious. Unfortunately a comprehensive plan (whether you agree with all or none of it) relative to setting up a whitetail farm isn’t a service NRCS or the MDC offers.

 

[Bill]

Don’t know about your county but our NRCS timber guy wasn’t much help for deer hunting. My only express instruction before he toured my place was “I’m not interested in board feet, I’m interested in antler inches”

All I got was recommendations for lumber growth improvement and a lecture on how I’m lucky to be alive after cutting trees the complete WRONG way :)
Guess he wasn’t impressed with my ability to hinge cut some really big stuff ;)

The only two habitat consultants I’ve been involved with are Steve Bartylla and Jeff Sturgis. Steve sold out to his partner Brooks Johnson because he landed a sweet gig. I wouldn’t be afraid to use either, but their the only ones “I” know. I’m sure there are others out there.

Brooks does everything via aerial photo’s and topo maps for about $600 and a $ back guarantee. (That’s how it used to be anyway) http://food-plots-for-deer.com

Jeff is boots on the ground and a bit more costly. https://www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com/services

So I guess it’s all what you’re looking for. Steve and Brooks did a plan for me years ago. I was happy enough with it and have implemented some of it. I’d do much more if I actually had the time.

Again I’m sure there are other guys out there.

 

[SD51555]

I had one done by Steve. It was well worth the money. When you consider what you're going to put into moving earth, seed, towers, fish, other equipment, and just the overall amount of capital you have tied up in a hunting property, don't go 99.6% of the way and stop. You can likely do it once and learn the thought process yourself and apply it next time you move.

The most valuable habitat improvement is acquisition of knowledge. The rest is just driving equipment and spreading stuff. I'm glad I made the investment before I got to blowing thousands on improvements. Now with absolute clarity, I'm moving forward, and with full confidence in my plan. That is except whether or not there'll be any deer. Small oversight there.

 

[SD51555]

In all fairness, I also pony up for the expensive soil tests and expensive up-to-date satellite maps of my property too.

 

[yoderjac]

Good points Jack. My father worked for the Missouri Department of Conservation for 30+ years and I’ve got plenty of intel and relationships there. I have previously had a resource forester out to help write a timber management plan, including current inventory and suggestions for improvements. The plan was pretty specific to the timber it’s self and for good reason. We’ve also had them help with TSI, EQUIP, etc. The service was also free which is also great.

I’m mostly curious on a specific plan to set up a farm for deer hunting success. I know it sounds silly but it’s funny the things some people see that we might be completely blind to that would otherwise be obvious. Unfortunately a comprehensive plan (whether you agree with all or none of it) relative to setting up a whitetail farm isn’t a service NRCS or the MDC offers.

Not directly but they were a great help to us. Here is an example. We already knew we wanted to clear cut some low quality hardwoods for bedding based on discussions with the forester and game department biologists. When NRCS came out to develop a plan for EQIP, one of the things their biologist suggested was having someone windrow the hardware tops in such a way that we would get both better NWSG development in the clear-cut, but also in a way to direct deer traffic. Our game department doesn't offer a specific service for setting up a farm for whitetail, but they do provide free consulting to private landowners for wildlife management. We simply told them we planned to manage primarily for Whitetail, then turkey, then quail but wanted to be generally wildlife friendly. Most of the biologists we worked with are hunters themselves and were more than happy to make suggestions regarding huntability. Keep in mind that our game department also offers a Deer Management Program where we collect samples and measurements of deer we harvest. So, huntability is a factor that improves there data collection as well.

As you say, additional eyes can offer different perspectives on any problem. We are organized as a pine far, so our comprehensive plan is a forest stewardship plan. It certainly includes timber management units and harvest plans and practices, but also includes wildlife management as an objective and includes tools like food plots, bedding, and such.

I do understand what you are asking regarding the "deer consultants". Lots of big names and controversy out there over the years. Some folks seem to love them and others feel ripped off.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Dukslayr]

Don’t know about your county but our NRCS timber guy wasn’t much help for deer hunting. My only express instruction before he toured my place was “I’m not interested in board feet, I’m interested in antler inches”

All I got was recommendations for lumber growth improvement and a lecture on how I’m lucky to be alive after cutting trees the complete WRONG way :)
Guess he wasn’t impressed with my ability to hinge cut some really big stuff ;)

The only two habitat consultants I’ve been involved with are Steve Bartylla and Jeff Sturgis. Steve sold out to his partner Brooks Johnson because he landed a sweet gig. I wouldn’t be afraid to use either, but their the only ones “I” know. I’m sure there are others out there.

Brooks does everything via aerial photo’s and topo maps for about $600 and a $ back guarantee. (That’s how it used to be anyway) http://food-plots-for-deer.com

Jeff is boots on the ground and a bit more costly. https://www.whitetailhabitatsolutions.com/services

So I guess it’s all what you’re looking for. Steve and Brooks did a plan for me years ago. I was happy enough with it and have implemented some of it. I’d do much more if I actually had the time.

Again I’m sure there are other guys out there.

Good stuff as usual Bill. Thank you. I’m familiar with Higgins and Sturgis but not the other recommendation. My personal feeling is that boots on the ground is really the only way to get a real feel for any land. If you have anything you can share (plan wise) from your experience with Brooks I would love to see it. You can PM and I can get you my email as needed.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Dukslayr]

I had one done by Steve. It was well worth the money. When you consider what you're going to put into moving earth, seed, towers, fish, other equipment, and just the overall amount of capital you have tied up in a hunting property, don't go 99.6% of the way and stop. You can likely do it once and learn the thought process yourself and apply it next time you move.

The most valuable habitat improvement is acquisition of knowledge. The rest is just driving equipment and spreading stuff. I'm glad I made the investment before I got to blowing thousands on improvements. Now with absolute clarity, I'm moving forward, and with full confidence in my plan. That is except whether or not there'll be any deer. Small oversight there.

How long ago did you too work with Steve? Thank you for your insight and response.

 

[Dukslayr]

In all fairness, I also pony up for the expensive soil tests and expensive up-to-date satellite maps of my property too.

Funny stuff. I also any ponying up for “expensive soil” tests and an I also have 2 4’ high resolution laminated property maps up on my walls at the farm - one 3D topo ant one hybrid. They’re not free but sure as shit helps me plan a draw things out.

 

[Dukslayr]

Not directly but they were a great help to us. Here is an example. We already knew we wanted to clear cut some low quality hardwoods for bedding based on discussions with the forester and game department biologists. When NRCS came out to develop a plan for EQIP, one of the things their biologist suggested was having someone windrow the hardware tops in such a way that we would get both better NWSG development in the clear-cut, but also in a way to direct deer traffic. Our game department doesn't offer a specific service for setting up a farm for whitetail, but they do provide free consulting to private landowners for wildlife management. We simply told them we planned to manage primarily for Whitetail, then turkey, then quail but wanted to be generally wildlife friendly. Most of the biologists we worked with are hunters themselves and were more than happy to make suggestions regarding huntability. Keep in mind that our game department also offers a Deer Management Program where we collect samples and measurements of deer we harvest. So, huntability is a factor that improves there data collection as well.

As you say, additional eyes can offer different perspectives on any problem. We are organized as a pine far, so our comprehensive plan is a forest stewardship plan. It certainly includes timber management units and harvest plans and practices, but also includes wildlife management as an objective and includes tools like food plots, bedding, and such.

I do understand what you are asking regarding the "deer consultants". Lots of big names and controversy out there over the years. Some folks seem to love them and others feel ripped off.

Thanks,

jack

Spot on Jack. Would like to hear from those who have footed the bill for said consultants and how they felt on the back end. I think some of the outcomes have to do with expectations going into it. For example I don’t expect my accountant to get a 10k return (hell I would be happy not to pay in more) nor do I expect my financial planner to deliver 15% year over year. I’m curious about expectations set and deliverables.

 

[Bill]

If you have anything you can share (plan wise) from your experience with Brooks I would love to see it.

My actual plan is at the farm. I’d post it if I had it with me. If you go to their website there is a sample plan. That kind of shows what you’ll get on paper.

Full Disclosure. my consultation was with Steve but I’m sure Brooks was involved in putting it together. Steve and I were friends before and since.

I suspect the first thing they will do is ID stand locations and access to them that lets you hunt with out putting the pressure on the deer. From there the plan gets developed. Where to put bedding, food, water, deer trails screening and on, and why.

I feel like a commercial but it was worth the $500 then just to know I hadn’t screwed up in what I had already done. There were a few things boots on the ground would have helped them with but on the phone we worked out what I could see and they couldn’t.

I’ve put stands in places not on that plan but always do so with the methodology that goes into Steve’s work.

 

[Dukslayr]

My actual plan is at the farm. I’d post it if I had it with me. If you go to their website there is a sample plan. That kind of shows what you’ll get on paper.

Full Disclosure. my consultation was with Steve but I’m sure Brooks was involved in putting it together. Steve and I were friends before and since.

I suspect the first thing they will do is ID stand locations and access to them that lets you hunt with out putting the pressure on the deer. From there the plan gets developed. Where to put bedding, food, water, deer trails screening and on, and why.

I feel like a commercial but it was worth the $500 then just to know I hadn’t screwed up in what I had already done. There were a few things boots on the ground would have helped them with but on the phone we worked out what I could see and they couldn’t.

I’ve put stands in places not on that plan but always do so with the methodology that goes into Steve’s work.

Thanks Bill, and I appreciate the disclosures. I’ve spend more money on less for other things (unfortunately).

 

[SD51555]

How long ago did you too work with Steve? Thank you for your insight and response.

Maybe 3-4 years ago or so.

 

[willy]

In 2011 I hired Jim Ward for a day's boots on ground evaluation and work day when he was in the area for a sports show. He agreed to the evaluation/work day for a discounted rate close to a grand. He was at my house for the evening before the work day, we started at sunrise and ended at sunset. He left the next morning. I feel I got my monies worth in evauluation/ planning as my focus at the time was improving buck bedding on my property more than what I thought they were. This was at a time when buck beds were the rage and that's what I was thinking I needed to do. I wasn't really thinking of much else but he discussed some intense hinging in areas for manipulating deer movement and thickening things up more than I already had. We did some of that but basically an outline of the project so that I had an idea of what/where to do the manipulations later. (I had done some on a smaller scale to make the timber thicker and to get rid of ironwood trees) He thought a lot more would be beneficial.

I had learned a lot from Paul Knox and habitat manipulations/management and had started to implement his ideas that I thought fit my property including hinging prior to Jim. Basically Jim Ward confirmed my ideas and added his flavor of buck beds to the plan. In fact Jim had heard about Paul Knox's and his habitat management ideas and was going to a presentation by Paul in the near future after leaving my place. I shared with him Paul's site on Iowa Whitetail and his threads on habitat/deer/management. We had great discussions on my property and habitat management in the evenings when he was at my house. I believe Jim has grown a lot from his earlier buck beds and deer movement/habitat and deer management ideas as have I.

I took my wife down to see the hinging I had done earlier that winter and the work Jim and I had done. She about started crying as she thought I had ruined the woods and destroyed the habitat. She said no more cutting/hinging of trees.

That deer season we had good movement in front of the stands, how Jim said it would work and I got a 4.5 old buck, first buck for me off of the farm. This gave me an opportunity to present the plan I had developed based on Jim's knowledge, Paul Knox's, books I read, experiences I had and what I had gleaned from the old qdma site by many who post on here. Basically there was going to be a whole lot more hinge cutting, bull dozer work, and smaller detail work such as snow fence and water holes.

In 2013 I presented my plan to my wife and she was less than thrilled, in fact she was against what I wanted to do. This was a problem because I knew I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do if she wasn't on board. A light bulb came on, in the past on some home improvement/landscaping ideas I had she wasn't keen on I got a professional in that area to come check out the idea's feasibility. If they thought it was a good idea she was all for the project and me doing it.

Through the old site I was introduced to Steve Bartylla's ideas through what he shared. He was offering an aerial eval for 250 or 500 (I don't remember which it was) with money back if one didn't like what he came up with. I decided to see if Steve Bartylla would do and evaul and believed if he had ideas similar to what I was planning my wife would be on board. I contacted Steve Bartylla, answered his questionnaire, and sent all the photos and info he requested. We had a 2 hr phone conversation and I was set. One thing Steve always expresses in his ideas is to take the parts that will work on your property not just apply them all. That won't work.

Steve sent a several pages long, detailed plan and I presented that to my wife. Steve even addressed my wife's concerns with hinging and I backed off on the total of my original planned hinging. She signed off on the plan. I started work immediately on the plan. I was able to implement a vast majority in the first two years after and hunting has really been incredible since. There have been five deer taken that have been 4.5 or older since 2014.

My wife and I are very happy with the habitat/deer manipulation project plan that Steve Bartylla gave us.

Steve's plan basically was exactly what he described in his free posts on the old forums and what he puts on his facebook page and in his book. (I don't have an account but I go to the page and read his posts for what he shares. It reaffirms what I'm doing/planning or shares something new that might be good to implement on my farm) He was instrumental in helping make my ideas come to fruition. Without him I know my wife would have never signed off on some of the big projects I've done.

Both consultants were great experiences but I got the most value from Steve Bartylla.

 

[willy]

In all fairness, I also pony up for the expensive soil tests and expensive up-to-date satellite maps of my property too.

SD,
Where can one get up to date satellite maps, I would love to get ones for where I'm going elk hunting. The newest ones from the sources I use are 2012. Lots has changed since then.

Thanks

 

[Dukslayr]

In 2011 I hired Jim Ward for a day's boots on ground evaluation and work day when he was in the area for a sports show. He agreed to the evaluation/work day for a discounted rate close to a grand. He was at my house for the evening before the work day, we started at sunrise and ended at sunset. He left the next morning. I feel I got my monies worth in evauluation/ planning as my focus at the time was improving buck bedding on my property more than what I thought they were. This was at a time when buck beds were the rage and that's what I was thinking I needed to do. I wasn't really thinking of much else but he discussed some intense hinging in areas for manipulating deer movement and thickening things up more than I already had. We did some of that but basically an outline of the project so that I had an idea of what/where to do the manipulations later. (I had done some on a smaller scale to make the timber thicker and to get rid of ironwood trees) He thought a lot more would be beneficial.

I had learned a lot from Paul Knox and habitat manipulations/management and had started to implement his ideas that I thought fit my property including hinging prior to Jim. Basically Jim Ward confirmed my ideas and added his flavor of buck beds to the plan. In fact Jim had heard about Paul Knox's and his habitat management ideas and was going to a presentation by Paul in the near future after leaving my place. I shared with him Paul's site on Iowa Whitetail and his threads on habitat/deer/management. We had great discussions on my property and habitat management in the evenings when he was at my house. I believe Jim has grown a lot from his earlier buck beds and deer movement/habitat and deer management ideas as have I.

I took my wife down to see the hinging I had done earlier that winter and the work Jim and I had done. She about started crying as she thought I had ruined the woods and destroyed the habitat. She said no more cutting/hinging of trees.

That deer season we had good movement in front of the stands, how Jim said it would work and I got a 4.5 old buck, first buck for me off of the farm. This gave me an opportunity to present the plan I had developed based on Jim's knowledge, Paul Knox's, books I read, experiences I had and what I had gleaned from the old qdma site by many who post on here. Basically there was going to be a whole lot more hinge cutting, bull dozer work, and smaller detail work such as snow fence and water holes.

In 2013 I presented my plan to my wife and she was less than thrilled, in fact she was against what I wanted to do. This was a problem because I knew I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do if she wasn't on board. A light bulb came on, in the past on some home improvement/landscaping ideas I had she wasn't keen on I got a professional in that area to come check out the idea's feasibility. If they thought it was a good idea she was all for the project and me doing it.

Through the old site I was introduced to Steve Bartylla's ideas through what he shared. He was offering an aerial eval for 250 or 500 (I don't remember which it was) with money back if one didn't like what he came up with. I decided to see if Steve Bartylla would do and evaul and believed if he had ideas similar to what I was planning my wife would be on board. I contacted Steve Bartylla, answered his questionnaire, and sent all the photos and info he requested. We had a 2 hr phone conversation and I was set. One thing Steve always expresses in his ideas is to take the parts that will work on your property not just apply them all. That won't work.

Steve sent a several pages long, detailed plan and I presented that to my wife. Steve even addressed my wife's concerns with hinging and I backed off on the total of my original planned hinging. She signed off on the plan. I started work immediately on the plan. I was able to implement a vast majority in the first two years after and hunting has really been incredible since. There have been five deer taken that have been 4.5 or older since 2014.

My wife and I are very happy with the habitat/deer manipulation project plan that Steve Bartylla gave us.

Steve's plan basically was exactly what he described in his free posts on the old forums and what he puts on his facebook page and in his book. (I don't have an account but I go to the page and read his posts for what he shares. It reaffirms what I'm doing/planning or shares something new that might be good to implement on my farm) He was instrumental in helping make my ideas come to fruition. Without him I know my wife would have never signed off on some of the big projects I've done.

Both consultants were great experiences but I got the most value from Steve Bartylla.

Great info and write up. Thank you for sharing all of that.

 

[John-W-WI]

I have had Jeff Sturgis to my farm twice. Both visits were somewhere in the $1500 range.

Jeff knows his stuff. I highly recommend checking out his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm2kmwM1LIRjrnbqynMjTzQ

Both times he visited we spent a day in the field and an evening "around the fire". I'm not sure which I learned more from. Just chatting with someone like Jeff is worth the time. People like him have seen a LOT of properties. They have seen what works and what doesn't. I even wonder if they make stuff up and see how it turns out

With all of the time money and effort we put into our farms, I believe it's worth hiring a consultant. Even if you don't implement their plan exactly, what you learn from them is worth the expense (time and money).

-John

 

[bigbendmarine]

Utilized a largely complimentary plan from a solid land manager living in the Southeast I met on the old QDMA forum, and then a year or so later ponied up $500 for Steve Bartylla's group to do an aerial study / plan.

Both were quite detailed and very helpful.

I will say this for the Bartylla plan, after the detailed plan was given to me I didn't feel the least bit cheated that it didn't involve an on-site walk and that was having a prior plan to compare it with that DID involve an on-site visit. The questionnaire they used before even starting the plan was fairly extensive, they really pushed hard to define goals / expectations, accepted about all the additional input I could think to throw their way, and after I received an extremely detailed plan Steve fielded a ton of follow-up questions from me for about two hours on the phone and not once acted the least bit put out.

Whereas the first plan I got was focused primarily on my ground alone I could tell Steve's group went the extra mile to really measure how my property fit as a puzzle piece with neighboring properties and how to maximize buck travel during season on my own. I will add the caveat that being in North FL my terrain isn't tremendously complicated / gentle sloping with fairly straightforward features, so that made me even less concerned about having a visit.

As for results, few years before I got help with planning I was harvesting a buck a year in the 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 year range scoring close to the 100 mark that Florida uses for its Registry recognition program. Much appreciate that score is VERY LOW compared to about everything north of us, but... well... it's Florida after all. I actually had bucks quite nicer in the 110 to 130 range visiting my property during the years before I got the plans BUT for a number of reasons (mostly self-induced - less than ideal stand sites combined with allowing one friend to over-hunt / over-pressure deer in the poor stands) the visits were mostly nocturnal.

Granted the results may be anecdotal, but the first year after implementing just 20% or so of his recommendations I harvested a buck scoring 137 -- enough to put it in the top 25 Florida bucks reported that year. Three seasons have passed now since using Bartylla and each year I've met my personal goal of harvesting two 110+ bucks with scores averaging around the 120 mark. Again, appreciate those scores won't wow many (if any!) on the forum but I don't supplemental feed, primarily have only used fall attraction plots as haven't made time for summer ones (come spring I get fishing fever as bad as buck fever in the fall), and honestly only have made single digit sits each of those seasons due to picking good days and having hit-list bucks show on them.

And even three years in I bet I have only incorporated 30% or so of the recommendations thus far. Good Lord willing, as long as the neighboring properties / pressures don't change too much and we avoid health issues such as CWD I'm optimistic years ahead can be even better as mast plantings I've made mature and I hopefully incorporate more plan recommendations. Can't personally speak to whether Steve's handing over the reigns lowered the quality of reports at all, but sure can say I was happy with what I got when he was still somewhat involved.

 

[TreeDaddy]

more useful knowledge in this single thread than the entire copy of most monthly publications......that i no longer subscribe to after finding this forum

bill