I was attempting to plant fall plots utilizing the ultimate no-till method from Jeff Sturgis at WHS. The buckwheat that I planted didn't take. Can I spread my fall blend into the weeds that have taken over, cultipack, then spray with glyphosate like I would have if the buckwheat had taken?
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Buckwheat fail
- Thread starter R179P
- Start date
Bassattackr
5 year old buck +
I'd spray, broadcast then cultipack in that order. Would insure you get good coverage with the gly before you push it all over.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
If you have the luxury of living close to your property I'd spray a week in advance. If that isn't an option you can do it all in one day.
Rit
5 year old buck +
How tall are the weeds? They are not going to bend over and lay down like maturing buckwheat. More than likely they are going to pop right back up. If they aren’t very tall I’d broadcast, roll, spray, and walk away.
If they are tall weeds you might want to clip them before they go to seed, wait 7-10 days then broadcast, spray, roll etc.
If they are tall weeds you might want to clip them before they go to seed, wait 7-10 days then broadcast, spray, roll etc.
35-acre
5 year old buck +
With T&M, somehow you have to knock those weeds/plants down (the stuff that has grown now).
I don't know your situation but for me, I don't have heavy equipment. So that limits my options; they can be as simple as driving over everything with an ATV, dragging a harrow rake or fence behind the ATV, mowing it with a weed eater/push mower and spraying. As RIT pointed out you would likely have better results spraying at least once a week before. If the vegetation that is there now is tall and thick you may need to spray twice over 2 weeks or so. This field, I've got some experience and was comfortable with what I was putting into it - but it's still a bit green in this below photo (inside the yellow is the field - just helps me to see the field by drawing it in):
If you plant into fully dead matter you end up with better results (see below left - buckwheat). I did buckwheat one year early in my T&M efforts - and I had some seriously heavy clay (below right) soil it came out well but I had prepped by spraying 3 times prior. The field was just dead "hay".
Once you figure out what you're going to do to kill the vegetation, then make sure you get that seed to soil contact. I have found if I don't run over every inch of the field with my ATV tires, I don't have as much success.
I don't know your situation but for me, I don't have heavy equipment. So that limits my options; they can be as simple as driving over everything with an ATV, dragging a harrow rake or fence behind the ATV, mowing it with a weed eater/push mower and spraying. As RIT pointed out you would likely have better results spraying at least once a week before. If the vegetation that is there now is tall and thick you may need to spray twice over 2 weeks or so. This field, I've got some experience and was comfortable with what I was putting into it - but it's still a bit green in this below photo (inside the yellow is the field - just helps me to see the field by drawing it in):
If you plant into fully dead matter you end up with better results (see below left - buckwheat). I did buckwheat one year early in my T&M efforts - and I had some seriously heavy clay (below right) soil it came out well but I had prepped by spraying 3 times prior. The field was just dead "hay".
Once you figure out what you're going to do to kill the vegetation, then make sure you get that seed to soil contact. I have found if I don't run over every inch of the field with my ATV tires, I don't have as much success.
I appreciate the help. This is my first property so I'm learning as I go. I'm a couple of hours away, so multiple trips are possible but not ideal. The property is in southeast MN and I am concerned about running out of time. Some of the weeds are ankle-high and some are waist-high. I suppose I could limit my plot this year to the areas where the weeds are shorter and make a better effort next year.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
First issue is your growing zone is not in your avatar info. Hard to comment with out knowing you zone.
Second problem is you listened to Sturgis who is a BOB guy ... you know, "how to grow'em big videos".
At this stage, with still alot of unknowns ... you should ...
- Spray all the weeds immediately with glysophate.
- Go to your local feedmill and ask about food plot seeds they would recommend.
- Wait 2 weeks they mow, crimp, or till under everything standing on 1st day, 2nd day broadcast spread red & white clover, PTT, GRH, and a leafy
brassica normal to your region. Then run over with a cultipacker or anything else you can beat the seeds into the ground. They spray another round of
GLY.
- Depending on your zone, broadcast 100 lbs of winter rye per acre in late Aug or early Sept and pound it in again t get good soil contact.
Spend the next 6 months reviewing the following and you will more in 30 minutes than you'll ever learn from the BOB guys ...
Native Warm Season Grasses
Cereal Grains for Whitetals
Growing Brassicas for Whitetails
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Okay, knock em down and then they cover the shorter understory plants as they are green and leafy. The shorter story weeds/graases will simply re-emerge and still produce seeds the same season. If the weeds are tall and allow for the gly spray to reach the next stage weeds, it is a starting point. You kill the top weeds and start on the shorter stage.
Advice to a newbie/first timer based on advanced mechanical equipment is silly also.
I have done this approach on many virgin weed/grassy fields in mid summer and it ain't perfect. I did this when all I had was an ATV, a 15 gal sprayer, and a shoulder bag spreader. Not perfect, but it is a starting point.
35-acre
5 year old buck +
I'll tell you what I know based on my experience. When working T&M it helps to know the details of who you are and what you're trying to do. Or who's giving you advice and what are they basing that advice on. So, here's what I'm dealing with and what I use:
For me, I understand the drive time to some extent. I'm 90 minutes (one-way) from my property. I could make it down after work, do my thing and drive back after dark but it's not ideal. It just depends how badly I want to go and do what I need to do (like - I made that drive when I had to repair a busted window, but I wouldn't do it for simply mowing the lawn).
My field is about 1.5 acres. I have some trees planted in it and the field isn't a regular shape.
I have no heavy equipment. That means I use a 2 gallon pump sprayer and an over-the-shoulder spreader that hold about 30 lbs. I have an ATV and I have bought a drag behind harrow rake from tractor supply. It weighs about 150lbs easily and can be dragged spikes up or down depending on my needs. NOTE: It does not dig into the soil (with your soil and this type of farming you don't want to disturb the soil much anyway).
As for what I know about your situation:
The height of the weeds changes everything for me too.
You also didn't mention how big of an area you're trying to do. That plays into the response a little.
Plus I'm making an assumption that you're like me and don't have heavy equipment. That's what drew me to the T&M process and it works well. There are only a few basic concepts and then there are more detailed preferences you will read about and develop on your own.
A lot of this kind of work is based on sweat equity and I think you're about to experience that. So here's what I would do at my field/with my tools/etc:
1. If you can get there before you plant in order to start to control those weeds you will be happier. To tackle what you've got there are a few approaches; you can mow, use a weed eater, or a scythe to get those weeds to a more manageable height (lower than knee and waste high that would be optimal for what I am recommending). Once you have it cut somehow, I would spray to get at the greenery that is lower down. That one trip should help out a lot.
2. A second spraying would also be helpful and you can do it the day you plant but if you're not familiar with glysophate you need to know 2 things:
4. Your goal is really to build soil in all of this. Sure you are planting things to likely hunt over. But at this point, you should plant things (as suggested above) that you know you will spray off/mow or will died on their own that will lay down, rot and build up a layer of organic matter on top of the clay crappy soil that you have (speaking of me this time). These things are wheat, rye, oats, etc. It's a slow process. It takes a few years but then it gets easier (not easy but less difficult to get things to grow).
These photos are after 4 years of my T&M work. They prove to me that this works. During this time I had great stands of buckwheat, some failed years and learned a lot about what the deer in my area like, how/when they use the field and so on.
If you stay on this site long enough you'll see me put out that I have found huge success with horse feed (rolled horse oats). They grow well in almost any condition. The animals love it. It's cheap at like $15 for a 50lb bag. So I always throw that down in my mixes of other things. It's helpful to keep track of what you've planted and when (over time you'll forget what you did exactly 3 years before).
For me, this year I planted:
For me, I understand the drive time to some extent. I'm 90 minutes (one-way) from my property. I could make it down after work, do my thing and drive back after dark but it's not ideal. It just depends how badly I want to go and do what I need to do (like - I made that drive when I had to repair a busted window, but I wouldn't do it for simply mowing the lawn).
My field is about 1.5 acres. I have some trees planted in it and the field isn't a regular shape.
I have no heavy equipment. That means I use a 2 gallon pump sprayer and an over-the-shoulder spreader that hold about 30 lbs. I have an ATV and I have bought a drag behind harrow rake from tractor supply. It weighs about 150lbs easily and can be dragged spikes up or down depending on my needs. NOTE: It does not dig into the soil (with your soil and this type of farming you don't want to disturb the soil much anyway).
As for what I know about your situation:
The height of the weeds changes everything for me too.
You also didn't mention how big of an area you're trying to do. That plays into the response a little.
Plus I'm making an assumption that you're like me and don't have heavy equipment. That's what drew me to the T&M process and it works well. There are only a few basic concepts and then there are more detailed preferences you will read about and develop on your own.
A lot of this kind of work is based on sweat equity and I think you're about to experience that. So here's what I would do at my field/with my tools/etc:
1. If you can get there before you plant in order to start to control those weeds you will be happier. To tackle what you've got there are a few approaches; you can mow, use a weed eater, or a scythe to get those weeds to a more manageable height (lower than knee and waste high that would be optimal for what I am recommending). Once you have it cut somehow, I would spray to get at the greenery that is lower down. That one trip should help out a lot.
2. A second spraying would also be helpful and you can do it the day you plant but if you're not familiar with glysophate you need to know 2 things:
- It works slower than you might expect. This means you start to see results 5-7 days later.
- You don't want it to be windy when you spray or if you have things that are are not wanting to kill, they may suffer (I killed an apple tree).
4. Your goal is really to build soil in all of this. Sure you are planting things to likely hunt over. But at this point, you should plant things (as suggested above) that you know you will spray off/mow or will died on their own that will lay down, rot and build up a layer of organic matter on top of the clay crappy soil that you have (speaking of me this time). These things are wheat, rye, oats, etc. It's a slow process. It takes a few years but then it gets easier (not easy but less difficult to get things to grow).
These photos are after 4 years of my T&M work. They prove to me that this works. During this time I had great stands of buckwheat, some failed years and learned a lot about what the deer in my area like, how/when they use the field and so on.
If you stay on this site long enough you'll see me put out that I have found huge success with horse feed (rolled horse oats). They grow well in almost any condition. The animals love it. It's cheap at like $15 for a 50lb bag. So I always throw that down in my mixes of other things. It's helpful to keep track of what you've planted and when (over time you'll forget what you did exactly 3 years before).
For me, this year I planted:
- Chicory and kale at a rate of 3lbs per acre
- Wheat at 60lbs per acre
- Crimson Clover at 2 lbs per acre
- Rape also at about 2 lbs per acre
- And my all-time favorite: Rolled Horse Oats (feed) at 50/lbs per acre
- I dropped 120lbs per acre of 10-10-10
- I also dragged the field flat with ONE pass of my harrow drag rake (I did spikes down just to open up the thatch a little. I am SO GLAD that I did this based on the heavy rains that came an hour later).
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Thank you for the replies. I'll back up a bit. I apologize for not starting with this post. Newbie.
I am in Houston County, MN. Southeast corner of the state. I have an ATV, ATV sprayer, cultipacker and a hand seed spreader. I have no problem purchasing more equipment if need be (hand scythe and harrow?).
My property is 45 acres and square with road access on the southwest corner (my only access point). See the screenshot. About 35 is timber and the balance is tillable and wetland. The front of the property was pasture where I intend to plant switchgrass (yellow outline). The blue at the top of the photo is a pond and the blue area at the bottom is a marsh/wetland. The brown is where I have planted some trees for screening. The zigzag purple is where I intend to put the food plot. It will be 1-1.5 acres. I have not determined what to do in the areas adjacent to the purple.
That purple area is also where the buckwheat didn't take. I have no problem putting in the work and for some strange reason, I am as excited about building the property as I am about hunting. Based on the responses above (thank you) my plan is to head down this weekend, cut the weeds down as best I can with a scythe and spray with gly. In about 10 days head back and seed, cultipack, and spray again. In early September I'll plant rye into that.
Decent plan?
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
I think you are adequately equipped for the scale of your plan. My suggestion would be to plant the perimeter of your purple outline in a wild flower mix. From my experience they are easier to establish than native grasses and grow as tall or taller. Plus your plot will be better off with the increased bee activity. The other option for that same area is do nothing and let nature reclaim the area. Other than that I don't want to weigh in to much without seeing a zoomed out view of your property.
35-acre
5 year old buck +
I think that sounds like a decent plan for sure. Don't forget lime and fertilizer when you plant (I know I keep putting it out there in threads but I think it's important). I'm actually going to my place tomorrow to get down 150 lbs of lime on my field similar in size. I seeded, fertilized and I'm liming a little later than I would have liked to get the lime down (I just didn't have room in the truck last time I went and planted). I'm using a calcified lime so it is a little bit faster than just a standard pelletized version.
As for the extra equipment, my best investment was the drag harrow. I leave it in the woods on top of a big flat rock. If you find it, you still need an ATV to haul it out. It is heavy enough to knock buckwheat down (but buckwheat isn't that sturdy) and it works well to knock almost everything down after it's been sprayed/dry. Here's what it did for me in my buckwheat crop (Top Right Inset picture of the flattened buckwheat after I dragged it, Bottom Inset picture of the harrow with spikes up):
As for the layout of the property, you might want to add more into your plot back near that pond. It's a wild guess on my part but it would seem the pond acts as a pinchpoint for deer entering that end of the field (they can't go into the field through the pond, so they have to come to it through a corner. So if that end of the field also had what you're looking to plant (similar to what you're doing behind the screening trees) it might be a hotspot for activity. Add in some field posts for rubbing, tie a branch off of it for scraping and you're building a "spot". But I'm getting carried away with all of that :)
Keep us posted. We like pictures.
As for the extra equipment, my best investment was the drag harrow. I leave it in the woods on top of a big flat rock. If you find it, you still need an ATV to haul it out. It is heavy enough to knock buckwheat down (but buckwheat isn't that sturdy) and it works well to knock almost everything down after it's been sprayed/dry. Here's what it did for me in my buckwheat crop (Top Right Inset picture of the flattened buckwheat after I dragged it, Bottom Inset picture of the harrow with spikes up):
As for the layout of the property, you might want to add more into your plot back near that pond. It's a wild guess on my part but it would seem the pond acts as a pinchpoint for deer entering that end of the field (they can't go into the field through the pond, so they have to come to it through a corner. So if that end of the field also had what you're looking to plant (similar to what you're doing behind the screening trees) it might be a hotspot for activity. Add in some field posts for rubbing, tie a branch off of it for scraping and you're building a "spot". But I'm getting carried away with all of that :)
Keep us posted. We like pictures.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
Any update to this project?
35 Acre: Do you have a good picture of the Drag Harrow you used here?
35 Acre: Do you have a good picture of the Drag Harrow you used here?
35-acre
5 year old buck +
Wow, how prices change. I think I paid $100 less than what these are going for now! This is the one I have from TSC:
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
I got this one a couple weeks ago. Seems very similar but about half the price.
Loyal Roth Multi-Use 4' x 4' Tine Harrow - H4X4 | Rural King
Loyal Roth Multi-Use 4' x 4' Tine Harrow - H4X4
www.ruralking.com
35-acre
5 year old buck +
Sounds like you found the better deal on the same loyal rake. NiceI got this one a couple weeks ago. Seems very similar but about half the price.
Loyal Roth Multi-Use 4' x 4' Tine Harrow - H4X4 | Rural King
Loyal Roth Multi-Use 4' x 4' Tine Harrow - H4X4
