Blasphemous Switchgrass vs Weeds Question(s)

[bigbendmarine]

Happily admitting my ignorance and opening myself up for a schooling if / as deserved... so my question is why is switchgrass so widely preferred over weeds? And I ask relative not to just a single factor but when trying to consider multiple factors.

1) Food value -- a number of weeds offer forb value, whereas my undestanding is switchgrasses don't. For example a fair portion of my property has heavy blackberry cover on it and I know the deer browse it.

2) Cover -- maybe just a southern thing, but bidens (not 100% sure if alba or pilosa and not sure it matters) get almost 6' tall on my place, and just about anywhere I want screening all I have to do is leave it uncut. It stays up all winter long and right on into the spring. Here's a pic showing bidens behind what I believe to be some type of switchgrass (welcome ID)... and as is shown height is comparable. This is a spot where both aren't very deep but if I leave bidens in a strip over 10' deep you can't see a thing through it. Due to the countless "spanish needle" seeds that bidens produces, I can cut it to the ground in spring and by fall I'm guaranteed 6' tall thick visible screening cover again. Horrible as purposefully propagating such a prolific weed may sound, I've used it the last few years to screen my fall plots which lie only about 150' from my house and it sure seems to make the deer relatively comfortable coming into the plots.



3) Bedding -- I see spots deer have used for bedding on my place in regular grass among the weeds and am not sure why switchgrass would be much preferred?

May well be a number of other motivators for switchgrass plantings, but again admitting my ignorance I don't know them / welcome educating.

Reason I bring up the topic is a fair amount of literature really seems to push switchgrass plantings, and if the brown grass shared in my picture above is indeed in the switchgrass family I've got multiple spots dotted along my property that already have switchgrass and I'm guessing I could act to help it spread. Just want to make sure I understand the detailed motivations behind doing so before I add it as a habitat to-do action item.

REALLY looking forward to replies on this one, as I'm eager for whatever feedback I can get / am ready to lose my utter ignorance on the subject!

 

[bigbendmarine]

Should add the promise I'm not looking to disagree with anyone who chimes in on benefits of swtichgrass. Assuming there MUST be some great reason(s) for it being far preferable to weeds as much as it's recommended. So, again, welcoming the education / NOT looking to debate any wisdom I can gain on the subject!

 

[Mortenson]

I guess for me it's a case that my Cave In Rock switch can stand up to late fall and winter whereas most weeds won't. And also a weed patch can quickly get out of hand and become a noxious weed patch. I get those in my switch too, but since it's grass, I have decent control options through chemistry, mowing & burning. Not really sure how you'd go after Canada thistles in a field of weeds. I've mowed down 10' tall poison hemlocks in my switch in early summer and the grass can resume growing again and make good 6'+ tall cover by summer's end.

 

[ksgobbler]

Doesnt look like switchgrass. Looks like the stuff we have around here that grows in areas with low phosphorus but I cant remember the name of it.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Doesnt look like switchgrass. Looks like the stuff we have around here that grows in areas with low phosphorus but I cant remember the name of it.

Guessing from bit of google sleuthing, maybe broomsedge?

 

[bigbendmarine]

I guess for me it's a case that my Cave In Rock switch can stand up to late fall and winter whereas most weeds won't. And also a weed patch can quickly get out of hand and become a noxious weed patch.

Mortenson, in whatever areas I don't regularly cut the bidens and / or blackberries are most definitely out of hand (and admittedly why I haven't fought them harder yet). And while the bidens make a decent screen for me it's at the cost of knowingly putting more needles down to grow for years, and while it doesn't impact my fall plots when I've tried planting any spring / summer plots they have quickly been overtaken by weed growth (though still getting some deer use).

 

[bigbendmarine]

And have to say already starting to get my welcomed education... found this fairly good primer on broomsedge, and if indeed what I've got popping up in few spots not too surprised as while I fertilize and lime my plots I have not YET done the remainder of the fields I have that aren't planted / are just mostly grass & weeds.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/north-american-native-grasses-broomsedge-andropogon-virginicus

 

[ksgobbler]

Broomsedge is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Native Hunter]

It's broomsedge or little bluestem. They look almost alike, and I need to be within 5 feet of them to make a positive ID. There are minute differences in looks. However, broomsedge has very low palatability as a cattle forage, while little blue is very nutritious.

 

[SwampCat]

I am not a fan of NWSG. When I bought my place, it had 20 acres in a fescue pasture. I have worked hard to get the fescue killed out and NWSG growing in its place. Most of the open pasture is now little bluestem and broomsedge bluestem - like you show in the pictures. Also some big bluestem and gamma grass. Very little switch. My open ground is a calcareous soil and was natural prairie. The seedbank was already there. The first few years while killing the fescue and getting the NWSG to establish, there was a variety of forbs intermixed with the grasses. There were a lot of deer that used the open ground, a few rabbits, quite a few cotton rats, a variety of songbirds, and I saw turkeys on occasion. As the open area converted to grass, it eventually choked out most of the forbs. No rabbits, very few cotton rats, the deer just walk through the NWSG, no spring bloom, very few songbirds or bees or butterflies. This year, I am bush hogging some of the open ground and disking it and seeing if I can get rid of some of the grass. I have BY FAR more wildlife use a few scattered Johnson grass patches than ever used my NWSG. My Johnson grass is still standing upright - we didn't get any snow this year, and hundreds of songbirds are in it everyday eating the seeds. I know a couple guys who have spent a lot of time and money establishing switch on their ground down here in the south - and in every case, it was an area that became infested with wild hogs. At least here in the south, I believe open areas provide much more benefit to wildlife of all variety if left in a state of mixed grass and forbs, with some open ground for easy movement within the area. I don't need cover from snow, or cover for hogs.

 

[Native Hunter]

I've seen some weeds that make pretty good cover, but basically, if I can't have cover like the NWSGs shown below, I don't consider it real cover that our mature bucks in this area will use with any degree of certainty in daylight. I know that isn't the case everywhere, but it is the case where I live. However, if your deer are comfortable using your thinner cover, I would say that is a good thing. It makes them easier to see.

BTW - This pic is mostly Indian Grass, but my almost pure stand of Switch looks much the same. The one I don't care for as much is Big Blue. It is more prone to crash in the winter.

 

[bigbendmarine]

...The first few years while killing the fescue and getting the NWSG to establish, there was a variety of forbs intermixed with the grasses. There were a lot of deer that used the open ground, a few rabbits, quite a few cotton rats, a variety of songbirds, and I saw turkeys on occasion. As the open area converted to grass, it eventually choked out most of the forbs. No rabbits, very few cotton rats, the deer just walk through the NWSG, no spring bloom, very few songbirds or bees or butterflies.

Very interesting share, SwampCat, as I am seeing MORE AND MORE rabbits each year on my place (though strongly suspect post-hurricane brush piles stacked along my wood edges have helped their numbers), have TONS of cotton rats, songbirds galore, and decent number of turkey as well. LOTS of spring bloom with the widespread blackberries, followed by passionfruit as summer approaches which draws an incredible number of butterflies, as for that matter so does the bidens. The honeybees really hit the bidens flowers regularly as well.

 

[j-bird]

The primary difference I see between switchgrass and "weeds" is the winter cover aspect. Now I say that because I do NOT fight "weeds" in my switchgrass. In fact I like seeing the different broadleaf "weeds" inter-mixed with it as it does provide food and helps keep the ground open for birds and rabbits to move more freely. Now I'm talking goldenrod, common & giant ragweed, ironweed and the like. I will certainly spray thistles, johnson grass and invasive plants. The thing is that a patch of "weeds" turns to a forest of sticks in the fall and winter and offer far less cover to wildlife during that time. I planted my switch for cover. As long as you can get it established a weak planting of switch while you allow the native forbs to grow along with it in subsequent years, I think would be ideal. I'm even ok with some shrubs as well. I will have to see if I can find some of my "side-by-side" pics depicting the cover aspect of it and post them up for you.

 

[j-bird]

Took me a while to dig thru my property tour thread to dig these up....I am sure there are others.

Same tractor.... The pic on the left is 1/2 as far away from the path as the pic on the right. These areas are less than 30 yards apart. So soil and light and the like is about as similar as I'm gonna get. Switchgrass alone has a much higher cover value. Let them good weeds grow in it and it's about the best thing you can do for upland birds! I'm also six foot tall and pic was taken roughly at eye level.


Below - the yellow and height of the switch on the left is very evident...and this with stay like this all thru my fall and winter. The "weeds" alone turn to sticks and grossly drop in their value as cover. The switch will stand and rebound from snow cover here.


I also don't think what was in the OP is switch...but broomsedge instead. I don't see a lot of use for it here as the snow knocks it down and it tends to only get to roughly waist high here. The actual grass of my switch will get from 4 to 5 feet tall....that's not counting the seed head. I also have not seen the "aggressive" nature that some claim switch can have. It may out-compete other warm season native grasses... but I have not found it in areas I didn't plant it. I have even tried to work switch into areas with "good weeds" as well. I simply burned and frost seeded the switch and then tried to control the "weeds" during the establishment year and then left it all alone...worked pretty good, but I know the germination rate of the switch in that manner wasn't as great as if it would have been cleaned into a weed free seed bed.

 

[scott44]

I believe a combo of real thick switch and not so thick NWG's works well together. I've seen deer use the less thick NWG used more in the summer and the thicker more in the fall/winter because the thinner has fallen down.

CIR switch on the left and a Big Blue, Indian grass, CIR mix on the right.

Thicker CIR and my native seed bank with 5' tree tubes.

A little thinner NWG mix with more forbes not used much yet but it's starting to.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Sharing just for whatever it's worth related to visualizing the cover that I'm getting from strips of weeds (what's left standing is mostly bidens)

View in this first picture shows a grassy lane with tubed sawtooths and the tubes are 5' high. The tall cover to both sides of the lane is the standing weeds / bidens.



Here's a view towards the tree tubes taken from the outer edge of the bidens / standing weeds -- said another way I'm standing in a spot just to the top left of the bidens in the first picture so the weeds to the left in the first picture are in front of me / blocking the tubes from view. The tubes would be visible in the photo below if not for the weeds blocking them from view.



Lest it seem I'm advocating it as an equal, promise I'm not. Outside loading my seed bank with millions / billions of bidens needles, I can think of several other weaknesses in comparing with the pictures several have shared of good stands of switchgrass (pictures MUCH appreciated!). First, due to the "stick" like nature I have to leave fairly wide swaths for screen... 10' deep or so, as anything less than that allows objects / movement to be seen on the other side. Also would guess the switchgrass might help block scent better than the stick like weeds.

Lucky (from my perspective) not to have to deal with snow so don't have any issue with sticks getting weighed down / two pictures shared above were taken this evening. Also guessing height of my weeds may (?) be a tad higher than would be further north due to extremely long green season -- generally March until early Nov.

 

[Mortenson]

Dug into my phone to see if I had any late winter pics of a 80/20 CIR/Kanlow mix. This pic is dated 2/19/18, so it would've had a fair amount of snow on by this point. Looks like I set my backpack by the nearby clump for scale. It can lay down, but usually springs up real well. I know that's not really an issue for the OP, but it may be a consideration for someone else.

 

[SwampCat]

This is what a mix of pretty much everything but any NWSG looked like at my place, today. Winter cover might not be as important for southerners as summer heat protection.

Six ft tall - a lot of johnson grass and goldenrod for the upper story. A lot of dewberry, blackberry, some vetch, just a real variety.

 

[Bill]

Don’t think we can compare what works in the Midwest to your place BB. Your growing season is much friendlier. :)

Snow is the reason I like switch. May knock it down but “most” of the time it bounces back. I planted real world switch the last time I planted and I followed Don Higgins recommendation of 2 lbs per acre. Well I went with somewhere between 2 and 3. In the future that’s my go to seeding rate. Enough tall switch to hide them but thin enough for clover and edible weeds to grow. Depends on location though. MO deer are not really under high pressure in our neighborhood. So a little cover goes a long way.

 

[H20fwler]

I plant switch for the same reason as everyone else has stated, winter cover that holds up.
My pasture is a switch/bluestem/Indian mix with mixed clovers and chicory at ground level and wildflowers and weeds.
Switch is pretty dominant and will eventually probably muscle out my other native grasses but I’m OK with that.