Baiting, I know this has been discussed and discussed this is just my rant....LOL

[BenA]

Not if you kill one in Iowa or Illinois over bait. They are just following the state game laws. not exactly sticking their necks out there.

They consider hunting deer in Iowa and Illinois fair chase? Lots of people don't think so.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

They consider hunting deer in Iowa and Illinois fair chase? Lots of people don't think so.

But to your point they could omit them, though I’d argue it’d be a nightmare to parse out. I think (just a guess) they are agnostic to it and just defer to state laws as to not isolate anyone. A lot of these organizations take very safe stances i.e ducks unlimited, nda and nwtf

 

[BenA]

But to your point they could omit them, though I’d argue it’d be a nightmare to parse out. I think (just a guess) they are agnostic to it and just defer to state laws as to not isolate anyone. A lot of these organizations take very safe stances i.e ducks unlimited, nda and nwtf

They do take a stance on things like rangefinding sights, even though those are legal in some states and not in others. You have to fill out an affidavit, so they could easily exclude baiting completely if they thought it was not fair chase.

 

[Baker]

Protein, minerals, and water during the hot summer months should help with antler growth. I would save the high-calorie stuff for after the rut.

Maybe Baker could chime in on that.

I missed this.
My anecdotal experience is that feeding protein pellets increases antler growth 10-15%. Maybe more in certain circumstances irrespective of how good the habitat is. Generally it takes abut 3 yrs to start seeing results but from then on the benefits continue to accrue. I can expand on this a lot if interested.

I've never seen any real benefit from minerals but I put Redmonds fine mineral salt out on the farm every yr { Same thing as trophy rock just no marketing } No minerals ever put out at ranch.

Water cannot be over stated. Even in La. I have dug small deep water holes all over the farm. Deer will only live so far away from water. In Mexico I cannot over state its importance and we have run countless miles of PVC with water troughs ever kilometer. It's a game changer there.

As has been beat to death here, corn supplementation is great for shooting a deer and maybe a little value getting deer thru tough times but beyond that not much value.

 

[Tangler]

Good morning gentlemen. I'm off to plant chestnuts I just received from Chestnut hill but before I go I'll offer a few facts in response to some of the dialogue here.

First the. NDA article by Kip Adams; He offers the typical knee jerk political response with no facts. Let's look at the state of Texas where perhaps more people feed than anywhere else and deer mgt. is a religion. Countless thousands of people feed countless tons of feed year round both in high fence ranches and low fence. Historically to date 1) There are no reported cases of bovine tuberculosis in whitetail deer 2) There are no historical cases of bovine brucellosis reported in whitetail deer.. I didn't check mange but Ive never seen or heard of it on any places I've ever been. The same results are true for any property I have ever been on. The facts don't line up with his position and he leaves the benefits out

A brief deviation to discuss QDMA or the NDA. Back when they decided to kill the forum feature I had a lengthy debate [ argument ] with Brian Murphy about content QDMA puts out. I challenged him to stop the hypocrisy and take more political risk by discussing things that weren't readily accepted by some in the hunting community. Ex. The highest award presented by QDMA is the Al Brothers award. The first high fence I ever saw back in the 70's was built by Al Brothers on a ranch he heavily supplementally fed. He was one of the pioneers in game fencing and supplemental feeding to benefit deer. Yet QDMA was unwilling to acknowledge that aspect of Al's work much less present the values Ex. They have given their highest award to several of the biologist that literally created the enclosed deer breeder programs that have spread throughout the country. Yet they never discussed the factual pros /cons and realities of the deer breeder business { BTW I'm not a fan } I could go on. My " opinion " is they stay with politically safe generic content. I still review their food plots stuff though.

Steve Demarais. He states that deer are 3x more likely to visit a feeder than some other spot somewhere else therefore " concludes " it more likely spreads CWD . Pretty loose scientific hypothesis without a lot of back up don't you think? Let's look at some of his work. First pull up the MSU websight on him and you will see a pic of him in a breeder pen with feeders and heavily fenced. I know for a fact they have shipped deer from that pen all over the country...kinda contrary to the current CWD mantra right? Beyond that he has a significant body of research in larger study areas [ Faith Ranch for one } that heavily relied on supplemental feeding. I like much of Steve's work and think he is one of the good guys but his statement does not correlate with the wealth of factual experience disputing it. But everyone is trying to postulate and take the safe road on the CWD issue.

Now a caveat ....We should probably start a different thread for CWD. For me it is hard to separate fact from hysteria, false information, political agenda and reality. Nonetheless could be worthy discussions as there are some very interesting things going on in that world. Breeders have isolated deer that appear to be CWD resistant and are trying to identify the gene involved . Feed manufacturers are experimenting with ingredients copper being one that appear to help increase resistance to CWD. Lots to learn here but wouldn't it be fascinating if the deer breeding industry helped solve the CWD problem by populating resistant deer around the country while we all could feed deer a supplement that increased there resistance and improved there health.

I want to revisit feeders knee deep in mud feces and urine but need to move on. That is an incredibly unnatural occurrence As a general rule most animals don't crap or piss where they eat. I've been in numerous 2 acre deer pens with 15-20 deer in them and they don't eliminate anywhere near the feeder. Saliva--yep but piss and crap no. Thats my experience. But we can dig deeper into this concern later is useful.

CWD resistance? Do you have any links to research papers or scientific data? CWD is a prion and I think resistance to prion diseases is not easy. CJD is the human version of this type of prion disease and there is no cure and no treatment.
Here is what I found online (for what it is worth):



+5




Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) resistant deer are typically white-tailed deer with specific genetic markers (often referred to as the 96S allele) that, while not completely immune, allow them to live longer with, or slower succumb to, the fatal disease. These deer are primarily identified through genetic testing in captive breeding programs.
Key Facts on CWD Resistance:

• No True Immunity: No deer species is completely immune to CWD, and "resistant" deer can still contract and die from the disease.
• Slower Progression: Deer with specific genes (e.g., 96S, 96SS) experience a longer incubation period before showing clinical signs.
• Genetic Testing: Breeders are using DNA testing to identify and breed deer with these genetic traits.
• Concerns on Spread: While these deer live longer, they still carry and shed the infectious prion, potentially increasing the spread of CWD to other, more susceptible deer.
• Limited Impact in Wild: These resistant genes are currently rare in wild populations, and their effectiveness in controlling CWD in wild, free-ranging herds is still debated.
• Impact of Disease: CWD is 100% fatal and has caused up to 20% of some populations to die in endemic areas.

Breeding for resistance is considered a potential strategy to reduce CWD prevalence in captive herds, but its viability for managing the disease in wild, free-ranging populations remains under investigation.

Here is info on CJD:
6




Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) is not curable and is considered 100% fatal, with most patients passing away within one year of symptom onset. There is no treatment to stop or slow the rapid progression of this brain disease. Current management focuses entirely on supportive care, comfort measures, and managing symptoms, such as using medication for pain and muscle jerks.
Key Aspects of CJD Treatment and Management:

• No Cure: No treatment exists to reverse or slow the progression of CJD.
• Supportive Care: The primary goal is to alleviate pain, reduce anxiety, and improve comfort.
• Symptom Management: Medications like clonazepam or sodium valproate may be used for muscle jerks (myoclonus).
• Experimental Research: While most treatments have failed to show benefit, researchers are investigating new approaches, such as antibodies (e.g., PRN100) that aim to stop prions from damaging the brain.

Because CJD is rapidly progressive, healthcare providers focus on palliative care to help patients and families manage the disease's symptoms.

 

[Baker]

Yep, thats what I've been seeing. As it makes clear, lots of research and investigation. Also the folks at Lyssey and Eckels feed in Tx. are investigating copper in feed with positive results? I'm imagine others are looking at this as well.

 

[Tangler]

Prions are a bad problem. CWD is similar to mad cow (bovine) and CJD in humans. Given the universal lethality and lack of treatment in cows ($$$$) and humans I am skeptical that a deer solution is on the horizon. I obviously hope I am wrong. we (humans) don’t usually make problems like this better IMO. Just ask the folks in Wuhan how that virus research is going.

 

[Mortenson]

So US cattle aren't getting prion disease from sick deer but we're supposed to believe that humans will?

 

[SwampCat]

Abstract
Using a prion amplification assay, we identified prions in tissues from wild pigs (Sus scrofa) living in areas of the United States with variable chronic wasting disease (CWD) epidemiology. Our findings indicate that scavenging swine could play a role in disseminating CWD and could therefore influence its epidemiology, geographic distribution, and interspecies spread.

Detection of Prions in Wild Pigs (<em>Sus scrofa</em>) from Areas with Reported Chronic Wasting Disease Cases, United States

Prions in Wild Pigs from Areas with CWD

wwwnc.cdc.gov

 

[Baker]

I was concerned this thread would venture into CWD. Would it be valuable to start a CWD specific thread? My previous posts disputing baiting as a vector for spreading disease weren't meant to venture into a CWD debate. That said I would be interested in group think on CWD as like it or not it is impacting the world of the Whitetail politically and biologically.

 

[T-Max]

I was concerned this thread would venture into CWD. Would it be valuable to start a CWD specific thread? My previous posts disputing baiting as a vector for spreading disease weren't meant to venture into a CWD debate. That said I would be interested in group think on CWD as like it or not it is impacting the world of the Whitetail politically and biologically.

Thread 'CWD conversations that are worth the time to watch'

Oct 7, 2025

A couple of recent threads have demonstrated that CWD is a topic of interest and passion...and one that is respectfully discussed on this forum. Here are two recent resources that are well worth the time investment for those wanting to know how to respond to CWD (if it is in your area) or prepare for the disease to rears its ugly head in your neighborhood.

Deer University: Lessons from Arkansas Chronic Wasting Disease Deer Study
Driftwood Outdoors: The Fight for our Deer Herd

We as landowners are the key conservationists for deer and other wildlife. Therefore, it is good to...

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• Replies: 35
• Forum: General Discussion

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[Telemark]

The conservation organizations like Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett consider baiting fair chase in order to enter antlered deer.

They have to. Imagine the mess that would create if baiting wasn't allowed. I don't think those lists are particularly important, and I mostly disregard them. I couldn't even tell you what the threshold is for entry.

 

[Telemark]

I missed this.
My anecdotal experience is that feeding protein pellets increases antler growth 10-15%. Maybe more in certain circumstances irrespective of how good the habitat is. Generally it takes abut 3 yrs to start seeing results but from then on the benefits continue to accrue. I can expand on this a lot if interested.

I've never seen any real benefit from minerals but I put Redmonds fine mineral salt out on the farm every yr { Same thing as trophy rock just no marketing } No minerals ever put out at ranch.

Water cannot be over stated. Even in La. I have dug small deep water holes all over the farm. Deer will only live so far away from water. In Mexico I cannot over state its importance and we have run countless miles of PVC with water troughs ever kilometer. It's a game changer there.

As has been beat to death here, corn supplementation is great for shooting a deer and maybe a little value getting deer thru tough times but beyond that not much value.

Redmond salt is the one I put out as well. I put goat mineral with the salt in Ohio, but not in Ontario. Where I hunt in Ontario, the bedrock is dolomitic limestone, so the soil tests revealed very high calcium and magnesium there. I have toyed with the idea of dumping goat mineral or cattle mineral on food plots and hoping the plants take up the nutrients, but it would require an amount of money I'm not prepared to spend just yet.

I think this is as good a time and place as any to expand on the benefits of feeding and baiting. I'm certainly interested.

 

[Telemark]

Slower Progression: Deer with specific genes (e.g., 96S, 96SS) experience a longer incubation period before showing clinical signs.

Would that not make the problem worse? If the deer is living longer, would it not have more time to infect other deer?

 

[Telemark]

So US cattle aren't getting prion disease from sick deer but we're supposed to believe that humans will?

No, we're supposed to believe that humans could.

Scrapie didn't infect cattle, until it did. There are several different types of prions. Because prions jumped 4 species in order to get from goats to humans, the risk that prions could jump from deer to humans is not an unreasonable fear. The CWD prions seem to jump species within the deer family already. Could they eventually jump to humans directly? Or from deer to cattle to humans?

Prion diseases have been found in sheep, goats, mink, cattle, and various deer species. And researchers have found it relatively easy to infect mice and primates with many of those different prions. There's no cure, and it's 100% fatal. It also infects soil, so the disease is in the place, not just the herd. You can eliminate the infected animals from an area, but the disease will infect an animals that come back to that area.

I really wish we knew more about prions. I expect that we will know more in the future, but for now, I will err on the side of caution.

 

[Tangler]

Would that not make the problem worse? If the deer is living longer, would it not have more time to infect other deer?

Agree. My exact thoughts. The deer still gets sick and he/she still dies but only after living longer and having the unfortunate opportunity to infect others and enhance spreading of the disease. Did not sound like progress to me. Sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[BenA]

They have to. Imagine the mess that would create if baiting wasn't allowed. I don't think those lists are particularly important, and I mostly disregard them. I couldn't even tell you what the threshold is for entry.

Well, it's an honor system. Not every thing legal is deemed fair chase by them. Baiting, where legal is.

Here's a quote from their site:

"
From its beginnings, the Pope and Young Club established, defined and maintains an ethical code of hunting referred to as FAIR CHASE. The concept of fair chase bowhunting is the very core of the Club’s belief system and one of our major advocacy focuses.

The fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it should be a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting’s future with deep roots in America’s hunting heritage.

Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal."

 

[BenA]

I would say this is unnatural congregation. There had to be mouths all over that entire plot. And I'm sure there were excretions everywhere.

 

[Mortenson]

Looks like lower MI is making a push to legalize baiting. The lady legislator said it was about hunter recruitment. I just skimmed thru it.

 

[Tangler]

I would say this is unnatural congregation. There had to be mouths all over that entire plot. And I'm sure there were excretions everywhere.

View attachment 89410

Great looking food plot! nice job! Also, I see your point. Makes sense. I suppose my logic is somewhat flawed and I am not too arrogant to admit it.