Baiting, I know this has been discussed and discussed this is just my rant....LOL

[ksJoe]

I’m going to reiterate that I say these same things to my best friends — so please don’t take this as being disrespectful. There are some on this board I don’t care for, but they’ve stayed out of this thread so far.

For you defensive baiters: have some principles. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Doing nothing means baiting because you think you need to. I fear we’re too far in to ever turn back because the defensive baiters have made the habit essentially ubiquitous.

Lastly, you’re either indifferent, pro-baiting, or against it. This is a topic without much nuance.
- No one can be truly indifferent and actually spending money on bait, much less typing paragraphs defending it, so I’ll ignore that group.
- If you’re against it, see paragraph 2.
- If you’re for it, at least own it and don’t beat around the bush. I’ll pray for you… nobody’s perfect. ;)

@Turkish I don't take that post as disrespectful. But it does have me curious.

if I'm reading your comment correctly, you seem to think baiting is inherantly immoral. You didn't use those words, but the remark about evil appears (to me) to suggest that's how you feel. If that's how you feel, I'm curious how you arrive at that?


As an explanation of why I don't see it as a moral issue, here's one way to briefly summarize my thoughts:
- I have no problem with people raising of domestic livestock for food (cows, etc).
- I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, and so for that reason I feel obligated to follow the hunting regulations.
- Aside from the government's hunting regulations I don't see a moral obligation to treat wildlife differently than livestock.

Once we take a step back from moral obligations, I certainly see a logical basis for many people being "sporting", "fair chase", etc. By that I mean that I can understand why many strongly embrace these principles. And I would agree there's good basis for those principles. But I would consider those principles traditions, or (not sure what word to use), but I certainly woudln't attach a moral obligation to it.

I do impose some rules on myself beyond what the law requires, and I extend those rules to guests hunting on my land. But extending those on my guests is a "house rules" situation, not something I consider a moral obligation. And I would not call those who don't follow my "house rules" (on other land) evil.

To summarize my thoughts from another perspective: I believe that moral obligations come from God, and aside from the general obligation to subject oneself to the government, and a very general "good stewardship of God's gifts" principle, I see no moral obligations on hunting style established in scripture.

I'm intrigued how you arrive at a moral obligation here. Or perhaps I misread your post?

 

[SwampCat]

I don’t totally disagree but i do disagree that there isn’t any nuance.
For some of us, those who truly do it as a defensive tactic, not the ol well it’s defensive but yeah the feeder just so happens to be in the plot I was hunting this evening…not that guy. The ones who won’t dare hunt anywhere near it, there’s a well intentioned strategy behind it. The draw of bait is so strong that it’s theoretical you could be doing your management a disservice by not employing it if/when every one of your neighbors lives and dies by it. The hope is by providing a safe space they can visit, just maybe they won’t go to billy bobs corn pile on November 7th. Maybe it’s a worthwhile effort or maybe not, for me this year i would have been better off lighting money on fire, but I can’t promise i didn’t work in the past…there’s no way to isolate that variable. But going forward im pretty sure i wont be wasting my time. On another note it is nice to a have a gathering place to collect inventory. I run very few cameras and I like to be able to have a cell cam at each feeder (2 on 650 acres) to see what’s alive, not as any form of hunting strategy.

If your outfitting neighbor is getting more than his fair share of the three year old bucks on his bait piles - sounds to me like his defensive baiting is working. For defensive baiting to work, the number one goal is to out bait thy neighbor. To be the master baiter, you are going to have to have the upper hand

 

[BenA]

I’m going to reiterate that I say these same things to my best friends — so please don’t take this as being disrespectful. There are some on this board I don’t care for, but they’ve stayed out of this thread so far.

For you defensive baiters: have some principles. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Doing nothing means baiting because you think you need to. I fear we’re too far in to ever turn back because the defensive baiters have made the habit essentially ubiquitous.

Lastly, you’re either indifferent, pro-baiting, or against it. This is a topic without much nuance.
- No one can be truly indifferent and actually spending money on bait, much less typing paragraphs defending it, so I’ll ignore that group.
- If you’re against it, see paragraph 2.
- If you’re for it, at least own it and don’t beat around the bush. I’ll pray for you… nobody’s perfect. ;)

I guess I'm in a different group. I sometimes bait. I baited in Louisiana without abandon. I see it just as another food attractant like a dropping oak, persimmon, or food plot. In Kentucky, I have baited a couple of times, but would rather not. Not because I have some moral aversion to it. I don't want to fool with it or the cost. I don't go often enough to check feeders and fill them. I'd rather rely on habitat work done when I make trips to do that. But, I see exactly what baiting does for my neighbors. So, I may have to get someone to maintain bait piles for me. But, I'm trying one more thing before I go that route.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

@Turkish I don't take that post as disrespectful. But it does have me curious.

if I'm reading your comment correctly, you seem to think baiting is inherantly immoral. You didn't use those words, but the remark about evil appears (to me) to suggest that's how you feel. If that's how you feel, I'm curious how you arrive at that?


As an explanation of why I don't see it as a moral issue, here's one way to briefly summarize my thoughts:
- I have no problem with people raising of domestic livestock for food (cows, etc).
- I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, and so for that reason I feel obligated to follow the hunting regulations.
- Aside from the government's hunting regulations I don't see a moral obligation to treat wildlife differently than livestock.

Once we take a step back from moral obligations, I certainly see a logical basis for many people being "sporting", "fair chase", etc. By that I mean that I can understand why many strongly embrace these principles. And I would agree there's good basis for those principles. But I would consider those principles traditions, or (not sure what word to use), but I certainly woudln't attach a moral obligation to it.

I do impose some rules on myself beyond what the law requires, and I extend those rules to guests hunting on my land. But extending those on my guests is a "house rules" situation, not something I consider a moral obligation. And I would not call those who don't follow my "house rules" (on other land) evil.

To summarize my thoughts from another perspective: I believe that moral obligations come from God, and aside from the general obligation to subject oneself to the government, and a very general "good stewardship of God's gifts" principle, I see no moral obligations on hunting style established in scripture.

I'm intrigued how you arrive at a moral obligation here. Or perhaps I misread your post?

Where I differ is wildlife is not livestock. To the contrary wildlife is wild, it’s beautiful and majestic and in a sense perfect in its environment. Livestock is controlled, depleted of all semblance of its wild ancestors and shouldn’t/wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for us. They are stupid meat vessels or pasture art and would probably die if we didn’t ensure it’s well being. High fence “wildlife” belongs in this category. Wildlife doesn’t need us, it doesn’t want us, and we don’t necessarily rely on it any longer for our existence (unfortunately). So if take a position to pursue it, I believe we should do all that we can to not cheapen its life. We are factors more intelligent than the wildlife we pursue. I personally think there’s an ethical line where we no longer hunt an animal on its terms and to me bait is over that line.
Another thing is legality doesn’t equal morality. With all due respect I don’t use the government to be my litmus test on morals and ethics. They have proven to have the most jacked up barometer on these intangibles, that I’d rather follow my own compass than use theirs.

 

[SwampCat]

I can remember back around 2005. Nobody I knew of baited. Nobody I knew of had serious food plots. We did not have nearly the mature bucks that we do now - but when you are the only one around with food plots and no one was baiting - what few mature bucks we had were in my food plots. And they were a lot dumber then than now.

CWD comes with a host of worrisome concerns. The one positive I could see was every state was banning baiting in their cwd zones. As much as I dreaded cwd coming to my area - the one positive I saw was going back to like it was before everyone started baiting. And wouldnt you know it, Arkansas became the first state to allow baiting within a cwd zone. Even Louisiana - land of three month rifle seasons and three buck limits banned baiting in their cwd zones - right across the AR state line.

And now my area is in a cwd zone where baiting is still allowed. I can only imagine what deer hunting might be like with five times the mature bucks as 2005 - and nobody baiting - and nobody food plotting except for me. That would be good times

 

[ksJoe]

Where I differ is wildlife is not livestock. To the contrary wildlife is wild, it’s beautiful and majestic and in a sense perfect in its environment. Livestock is controlled, depleted of all semblance of its wild ancestors and shouldn’t/wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for us. They are stupid meat vessels or pasture art and would probably die if we didn’t ensure it’s well being. High fence “wildlife” belongs in this category. Wildlife doesn’t need us, it doesn’t want us, and we don’t necessarily rely on it any longer for our existence (unfortunately).

Some livestock is stupid meat, but not all. Both domestic and wild hogs are very intelligent. Its my understanding that domestic hogs are considered to be among the most intelligent animals on earth. Escaped domestic hogs easily adjust to the wild and thrive. So I'd point to them as an example of an animal where the same animals can be switched at birth between livestock and wild with ease.

So if take a position to pursue it, I believe we should do all that we can to not cheapen its life

I humbly suggest that the industry practices in large scale hog farming cheapen the life of an exceptionally intelligent animal far more than baiting.
EDIT: I'm not necessarily condeming or defending the industrial ag policies - some make me cringe. Just pointing out the practice I see as cheapening of a life of animal 100% equal to a thriving wild population.

Another thing is legality doesn’t equal morality. With all due respect I don’t use the government to be my litmus test on morals and ethics.

I very strongly agree with this. The government and its laws certainly are not equal to morality and it is not my standard for morality. I do not look to the government for guidance on what is moral. I do however feel a moral obligation to follow the law (to the extent it does not violate God's law). I consider this as a moral obligation due to this, if not for that & similar passages, I'd be whatever on the laws. (I realize many won't agree with me looking to scripture as my standard, but that is where I'm coming from FWIW).

 

[Double Creek]

I don’t bait during any hunting season and I don’t supplemental feed. I do run a feeder a month or so a year to kill hogs. I’m not necessarily against baiting, but I do worry about the overall health effects it has for all wildlife. I think we can all agree that there’s baiting and then there’s just gross baiting. The later is disturbing to me.

 

[Turkish]

@Turkish I don't take that post as disrespectful. But it does have me curious.

if I'm reading your comment correctly, you seem to think baiting is inherantly immoral. You didn't use those words, but the remark about evil appears (to me) to suggest that's how you feel. If that's how you feel, I'm curious how you arrive at that?


As an explanation of why I don't see it as a moral issue, here's one way to briefly summarize my thoughts:
- I have no problem with people raising of domestic livestock for food (cows, etc).
- I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, and so for that reason I feel obligated to follow the hunting regulations.
- Aside from the government's hunting regulations I don't see a moral obligation to treat wildlife differently than livestock.

Once we take a step back from moral obligations, I certainly see a logical basis for many people being "sporting", "fair chase", etc. By that I mean that I can understand why many strongly embrace these principles. And I would agree there's good basis for those principles. But I would consider those principles traditions, or (not sure what word to use), but I certainly woudln't attach a moral obligation to it.

I do impose some rules on myself beyond what the law requires, and I extend those rules to guests hunting on my land. But extending those on my guests is a "house rules" situation, not something I consider a moral obligation. And I would not call those who don't follow my "house rules" (on other land) evil.

To summarize my thoughts from another perspective: I believe that moral obligations come from God, and aside from the general obligation to subject oneself to the government, and a very general "good stewardship of God's gifts" principle, I see no moral obligations on hunting style established in scripture.

I'm intrigued how you arrive at a moral obligation here. Or perhaps I misread your post?

“Evil” wasn’t meant to be literal! That was just a quote that spoke to the harm that can be done by indifference.

I’ve tried hard not to bring up morality or ethics in this thread because I don’t even think we need to go there to be support the point that baiting is harmful to the resource. Gun to my head, no, I don’t think I can argue it’s immoral. It feels a little cheap to me, but that in itself is insignificant. Why was it illegal and remain so today in places?

Again, putting morals aside, there are still enough cons to outweigh the pros, in my opinion. My crystal ball tells me the “indifferent” ones are critical to putting the genie back in the bottle.

 

[ksJoe]

“Evil” wasn’t meant to be literal! That was just a quote that spoke to the harm that can be done by indifference.

I’ve tried hard not to bring up morality or ethics in this thread because I don’t even think we need to go there to be support the point that baiting is harmful to the resource. Gun to my head, no, I don’t think I can argue it’s immoral. It feels a little cheap to me, but that in itself is insignificant. Why was it illegal and remain so today in places?

Again, putting morals aside, there are still enough cons to outweigh the pros, in my opinion. My crystal ball tells me the “indifferent” ones are critical to putting the genie back in the bottle.

I appreciate the clarification, and I understand why some people feel that way.

 

[Feelslikefar.]

It's a tricky thing will our own spin on things. We might not even understand our own opinions.
I sort of view baiting like I do sitting in a comfortable heated blind shooting a deer from a mile away. I've never done it, so maybe I might do it a few times. But I think quite quickly I would stop, getting no satisfaction from it.

Sort like I may have mentioned once before.. spent my whole hunting life dreaming about sitting on the edge of a certain local field with a rifle and shooting one from a "long ways away". (not really a long ways, just compared to the shotguns we had to use) After almost 35 years of dreaming about it, I finally got to do it. And when the deer showed up I didn't shoot. I couldn't do it. "There's no honor in this." No challenge, no skill, no hurry, no nothing. I couldn't do it.

Another way I look at baiting is it's no different that feeding a pig in a pen all year and slaughtering it. If you're doing it just for food, then fine. But then I'd feel no satisfaction in that either. To me, sharing photo's of a big buck you shot that you baited or shot from a house blind a mile away is no different than bragging about the pig you popped in the head through the fence. But different folks do different things. I know there's lot of people who spend ungodly amounts of money to go on guided hunts, only to have the guide shoot it for them, then have it mounted and tell tall tales.
(the food argument doesn't hold much water, you could buy a lot of meat for what you're spending on bait piles)

 

[BenA]

Do people think deer lose all their senses when it comes to bait? They lose their sense of sight or smell or hearing? Just because you get pictures of deer on bait doesn't guarantee you can kill one there. From what I've experienced, deer will still approach it like any other food source. Do you not hunt food sources? Is hunting all food sources wrong? You plant the most attractive plot because you want to attract deer to eat it. You plant a fruit tree because you want to attract deer to eat underneath it. Is it wrong to hunt a tree that's dropping fruit or acorns? Do you not hunt the dropping tree because it's worn down to the dirt with feces all underneath it? If you plant corn and mow it or pick it without a wagon, is the corn somehow magically different if you take it away from that spot and put it in another?

 

[SwampCat]

The big problem I have with baiting as most people consider baiting - is the ease with which it can be done. A hunter can buy a $150 feeder and dump 200 lbs of corn in it for $30 and greatly increase his odds of killing a deer - in most places. Let me be clear, I consider planting food plots and apple trees baiting. If you are planting three acres of corn for deer or dumping out three hundred lbs of corn - in MY opinion - it pretty much amounts to the same thing - except the effort is much greater if you plant it.

The effort is where I have the problem with baiting - and it is a selfish problem, I will not deny. I pay for and provide the effort and equipment to spray, disk, plant, mow, fertilize - I have tractors, disks, planters, bush hogs, sprayers - and I invest a lot of time. I have spent a lot of money for my 400 acres. My next door neighbor with five acres and $250 and thirty minutes of time can fill a feeder for a season and shoot deer 20 ft from my property line, from his back porch.

I worked for the deer killed in my food plots. My food plots provide year round benefits to wildlife. My next door neighbor buys a few bags of corn and can compete with all the time, effort, and money I have committed.

On the other hand, I do understand a lot of my neighbors work hard and dont make a lot of money. They cant afford 400 acres to dedicate to hunting land. They dont have the opportunity I have - they are struggling to get by. They NEED the deer a lot more than I do. They still enjoy hunting them, even if it is only 100 yards from their back door. Yet it still bothers me that they are killing “my” deer - that I spend a lot of time and money to grow and attract them, and they spend $100 and the deer spends 1/1000 the time on their property and gets killed.

If baiting were stopped - these neighbors would struggle to see a deer. I have half a dozen neighbors that probably kill a dozen or more deer combined off fifty acres and some feed piles

My selfishness would like to see all baiting stopped where my food plots would be the only game in town. And then I think - it is a deer. It isnt life or death to me. It is a hobby. Why should I wish ill will on my neighbors for hunting, killing and eating deer as I like to do.

I admit I do struggle with it - I try to treat it as a game. I spend a lot of money on bait to keep more deer on my place - and never hunt it - in an effort to keep them from killing “my” deer. If baiting was outlawed, it would make my life much easier - and less expensive - and my deer hunting better. It would make many of my neighbor’s deer hunting a lot worse.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Do people think deer lose all their senses when it comes to bait? They lose their sense of sight or smell or hearing? Just because you get pictures of deer on bait doesn't guarantee you can kill one there. From what I've experienced, deer will still approach it like any other food source. Do you not hunt food sources? Is hunting all food sources wrong? You plant the most attractive plot because you want to attract deer to eat it. You plant a fruit tree because you want to attract deer to eat underneath it. Is it wrong to hunt a tree that's dropping fruit or acorns? Do you not hunt the dropping tree because it's worn down to the dirt with feces all underneath it? If you plant corn and mow it or pick it without a wagon, is the corn somehow magically different if you take it away from that spot and put it in another?

Hmm yeah pretty much they throw a lot of good sense out the window. Now granted I’m sure you can’t smell like a gas station biscuit upwind of the feeder but I think the draw is strong enough to overcome a lot of good sense. I’m pretty sure my 75 year old female neighbor would not have shot a 155” buck this year if it had not been for a feeder. Actually I’m certain of it. How about Texas? They wouldn’t know what to do without a feeder because the draw of bait brings buck out of the cover they would otherwise prefer to be in. I recommend never underestimatning the draw of bait…just look at the folks who are successful with it. It’s not cause they are chuck adams i promise.

 

[BenA]

Hmm yeah pretty much they throw a lot of good sense out the window. Now granted I’m sure you can’t smell like a gas station biscuit upwind of the feeder but I think the draw is strong enough to overcome a lot of good sense. I’m pretty sure my 75 year old female neighbor would not have shot a 155” buck this year if it had not been for a feeder. Actually I’m certain of it. How about Texas? They wouldn’t know what to do without a feeder because the draw of bait brings buck out of the cover they would otherwise prefer to be in. I recommend never underestimatning the draw of bait…just look at the folks who are successful with it. It’s not cause they are chuck adams i promise.

So a feeder makes the food magic?

 

[jsasker007]

I'm in the camp of people doing whatever they want as long as it's not breaking any laws. If the food/bait/minerals is out there helping the animals year round I have no issues at all. I just don't like the ones that put out bait ONLY when they are hunting, but that's just my opinion. I put out some salt and mineral blocks in the middle of a food plot that we can see from the house. I don't hunt anywhere near the minerals it's more of a good spot to watch the deer from a distance. I guess seeing the deer use what I put out for them gives a guy a feeling of giving them something they want and it's helping them at the same time. jmho

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

So a feeder makes the food magic?

The draw is pretty close to “magic”. I’m pretty sure you know that too. You’ve even referenced your neighbors success with it. You think they are just heads and shoulders better woodsman that you?? How successful would they be if hey couldn’t bait?

 

[Baker]

Oh what the hell...

Color me indifferent. I do not consider it my responsibility to change peoples behavior, attitudes, opinions or beliefs. Doing so just agitates, frustrates, and makes me miserable. I try to focus on what's in my sphere of influence.

That said; From a management perspective...

Give me 20 acres of unmanaged property next to your 1000 acres of highly managed property with food plots feeders and a perfectly balanced deer herd and in just a few short years I can wreck everything you have worked for. I might not kill your mature bucks but me and my rednecks will massacre your 1-3 yr olds. Won't take long before there are hardly any mature bucks, a skewed ratio, and a herd that in no way resembles a 'natural ' deer herd. You may be a " master baiter" { That is an awesome phrase!!! } but over time your youngsters are gonna go on a walkabout and I'll be there for them.

Ask me how I know

 

[BenA]

The draw is pretty close to “magic”. I’m pretty sure you know that too. You’ve even referenced your neighbors success with it. You think they are just heads and shoulders better woodsman that you?? How successful would they be if hey couldn’t bait?

I think baiting in the manner they're doing it is why they are successful. Baiting from the time it's legal until the time it's not, is why I believe it works for them. A constant, preferred food source is what I think the advantage is. It holds deer close to the area. If a food plot or orchard could have the same sustained preference during that entire period, I think the effects would be similar. But, with a food plot, there are interruptions in preference levels. Maybe corn, if mowed a little at a time from August 1 until the end of February would equal the drawing power. But, at that point, I don't see the distinction between baiting and plotting from a deer's standpoint. If you don't have the area to devote to the amount of food required to grow in a plot to be attractive WITHOUT interruption for most of the year, you can supply it by other means. It's just food.

 

[BenA]

Oh what the hell...

Color me indifferent. I do not consider it my responsibility to change peoples behavior, attitudes, opinions or beliefs. Doing so just agitates, frustrates, and makes me miserable. I try to focus on what's in my sphere of influence.

That said; From a management perspective...

Give me 20 acres of unmanaged property next to your 1000 acres of highly managed property with food plots feeders and a perfectly balanced deer herd and in just a few short years I can wreck everything you have worked for. I might not kill your mature bucks but me and my rednecks will massacre your 1-3 yr olds. Won't take long before there are hardly any mature bucks, a skewed ratio, and a herd that in no way resembles a 'natural ' deer herd. You may be a " master baiter" { That is an awesome phrase!!! } but over time your youngsters are gonna go on a walkabout and I'll be there for them.

Ask me how I know

That's the truth. Since owning my Kentucky property surrounded by "master baiters", I've seen with my eyes and on camera ONE 5.5 yo buck.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I take responsibility for starting this post. I was NOT setting out to cause a big ruckus! LOL
I do truly hope that nobody harbors terrible feelings towards someone on this forum who does or doesnt use bait. I have us going down a rabbit hole I never really intended. My true intention was just expressing how F'n annoyed I was with listening to a podcast from 2 individuals who claim to be great stewards of the land and its wildlife to the point where as some folks besides me have mentioned they arrogantly come across as the highest power on such topics. Again, if you choose to bait and it is legal where you do so, good for you. Just know that what you are doing has no positive benefits to wildlife as a whole. By baiting I mean pouring out large amounts of food on a pile on the ground. If you want to split hairs and say that growing a crop is the same as baiting, you are just trying to justify the use of bait. From a wildlife feeding perspective it is not the same thing, the negative ramifications are not the same. Do I want to shoot big bucks, hell yea. Am I going to go about a practice that time after time has proven to have a negative impact on ALL types of wildlife (whether legal or not) just to potentially make that happen for myself or a customer ...... no. I live in Kansas baiting is legal, at least 2 of my neighbors use bait, do I hate them ... no. Do I wish they would care about our wildlife resources more than shooting a big deer, most definitely. I earned my wildlife biology degree 30 years ago, I have worked with some very knowledgeable people over the years in this field, learning from them every chance I get, I still devote as much time as I can to learning the facts that current scientific studies are showing us.