Baiting, I know this has been discussed and discussed this is just my rant....LOL

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I’m going to reiterate that I say these same things to my best friends — so please don’t take this as being disrespectful. There are some on this board I don’t care for, but they’ve stayed out of this thread so far.

For you defensive baiters: have some principles. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Doing nothing means baiting because you think you need to. I fear we’re too far in to ever turn back because the defensive baiters have made the habit essentially ubiquitous.

Lastly, you’re either indifferent, pro-baiting, or against it. This is a topic without much nuance.
- No one can be truly indifferent and actually spending money on bait, much less typing paragraphs defending it, so I’ll ignore that group.
- If you’re against it, see paragraph 2.
- If you’re for it, at least own it and don’t beat around the bush. I’ll pray for you… nobody’s perfect. ;)

I don’t totally disagree but i do disagree that there isn’t any nuance.
For some of us, those who truly do it as a defensive tactic, not the ol well it’s defensive but yeah the feeder just so happens to be in the plot I was hunting this evening…not that guy. The ones who won’t dare hunt anywhere near it, there’s a well intentioned strategy behind it. The draw of bait is so strong that it’s theoretical you could be doing your management a disservice by not employing it if/when every one of your neighbors lives and dies by it. The hope is by providing a safe space they can visit, just maybe they won’t go to billy bobs corn pile on November 7th. Maybe it’s a worthwhile effort or maybe not, for me this year i would have been better off lighting money on fire, but I can’t promise i didn’t work in the past…there’s no way to isolate that variable. But going forward im pretty sure i wont be wasting my time. On another note it is nice to a have a gathering place to collect inventory. I run very few cameras and I like to be able to have a cell cam at each feeder (2 on 650 acres) to see what’s alive, not as any form of hunting strategy.

 

[ksJoe]

I’m going to reiterate that I say these same things to my best friends — so please don’t take this as being disrespectful. There are some on this board I don’t care for, but they’ve stayed out of this thread so far.

For you defensive baiters: have some principles. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Doing nothing means baiting because you think you need to. I fear we’re too far in to ever turn back because the defensive baiters have made the habit essentially ubiquitous.

Lastly, you’re either indifferent, pro-baiting, or against it. This is a topic without much nuance.
- No one can be truly indifferent and actually spending money on bait, much less typing paragraphs defending it, so I’ll ignore that group.
- If you’re against it, see paragraph 2.
- If you’re for it, at least own it and don’t beat around the bush. I’ll pray for you… nobody’s perfect. ;)

@Turkish I don't take that post as disrespectful. But it does have me curious.

if I'm reading your comment correctly, you seem to think baiting is inherantly immoral. You didn't use those words, but the remark about evil appears (to me) to suggest that's how you feel. If that's how you feel, I'm curious how you arrive at that?


As an explanation of why I don't see it as a moral issue, here's one way to briefly summarize my thoughts:
- I have no problem with people raising of domestic livestock for food (cows, etc).
- I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, and so for that reason I feel obligated to follow the hunting regulations.
- Aside from the government's hunting regulations I don't see a moral obligation to treat wildlife differently than livestock.

Once we take a step back from moral obligations, I certainly see a logical basis for many people being "sporting", "fair chase", etc. By that I mean that I can understand why many strongly embrace these principles. And I would agree there's good basis for those principles. But I would consider those principles traditions, or (not sure what word to use), but I certainly woudln't attach a moral obligation to it.

I do impose some rules on myself beyond what the law requires, and I extend those rules to guests hunting on my land. But extending those on my guests is a "house rules" situation, not something I consider a moral obligation. And I would not call those who don't follow my "house rules" (on other land) evil.

To summarize my thoughts from another perspective: I believe that moral obligations come from God, and aside from the general obligation to subject oneself to the government, and a very general "good stewardship of God's gifts" principle, I see no moral obligations on hunting style established in scripture.

I'm intrigued how you arrive at a moral obligation here. Or perhaps I misread your post?

 

[SwampCat]

I don’t totally disagree but i do disagree that there isn’t any nuance.
For some of us, those who truly do it as a defensive tactic, not the ol well it’s defensive but yeah the feeder just so happens to be in the plot I was hunting this evening…not that guy. The ones who won’t dare hunt anywhere near it, there’s a well intentioned strategy behind it. The draw of bait is so strong that it’s theoretical you could be doing your management a disservice by not employing it if/when every one of your neighbors lives and dies by it. The hope is by providing a safe space they can visit, just maybe they won’t go to billy bobs corn pile on November 7th. Maybe it’s a worthwhile effort or maybe not, for me this year i would have been better off lighting money on fire, but I can’t promise i didn’t work in the past…there’s no way to isolate that variable. But going forward im pretty sure i wont be wasting my time. On another note it is nice to a have a gathering place to collect inventory. I run very few cameras and I like to be able to have a cell cam at each feeder (2 on 650 acres) to see what’s alive, not as any form of hunting strategy.

If your outfitting neighbor is getting more than his fair share of the three year old bucks on his bait piles - sounds to me like his defensive baiting is working. For defensive baiting to work, the number one goal is to out bait thy neighbor. To be the master baiter, you are going to have to have the upper hand

 

[BenA]

I’m going to reiterate that I say these same things to my best friends — so please don’t take this as being disrespectful. There are some on this board I don’t care for, but they’ve stayed out of this thread so far.

For you defensive baiters: have some principles. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Doing nothing means baiting because you think you need to. I fear we’re too far in to ever turn back because the defensive baiters have made the habit essentially ubiquitous.

Lastly, you’re either indifferent, pro-baiting, or against it. This is a topic without much nuance.
- No one can be truly indifferent and actually spending money on bait, much less typing paragraphs defending it, so I’ll ignore that group.
- If you’re against it, see paragraph 2.
- If you’re for it, at least own it and don’t beat around the bush. I’ll pray for you… nobody’s perfect. ;)

I guess I'm in a different group. I sometimes bait. I baited in Louisiana without abandon. I see it just as another food attractant like a dropping oak, persimmon, or food plot. In Kentucky, I have baited a couple of times, but would rather not. Not because I have some moral aversion to it. I don't want to fool with it or the cost. I don't go often enough to check feeders and fill them. I'd rather rely on habitat work done when I make trips to do that. But, I see exactly what baiting does for my neighbors. So, I may have to get someone to maintain bait piles for me. But, I'm trying one more thing before I go that route.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

@Turkish I don't take that post as disrespectful. But it does have me curious.

if I'm reading your comment correctly, you seem to think baiting is inherantly immoral. You didn't use those words, but the remark about evil appears (to me) to suggest that's how you feel. If that's how you feel, I'm curious how you arrive at that?


As an explanation of why I don't see it as a moral issue, here's one way to briefly summarize my thoughts:
- I have no problem with people raising of domestic livestock for food (cows, etc).
- I feel a moral obligation to follow the law, and so for that reason I feel obligated to follow the hunting regulations.
- Aside from the government's hunting regulations I don't see a moral obligation to treat wildlife differently than livestock.

Once we take a step back from moral obligations, I certainly see a logical basis for many people being "sporting", "fair chase", etc. By that I mean that I can understand why many strongly embrace these principles. And I would agree there's good basis for those principles. But I would consider those principles traditions, or (not sure what word to use), but I certainly woudln't attach a moral obligation to it.

I do impose some rules on myself beyond what the law requires, and I extend those rules to guests hunting on my land. But extending those on my guests is a "house rules" situation, not something I consider a moral obligation. And I would not call those who don't follow my "house rules" (on other land) evil.

To summarize my thoughts from another perspective: I believe that moral obligations come from God, and aside from the general obligation to subject oneself to the government, and a very general "good stewardship of God's gifts" principle, I see no moral obligations on hunting style established in scripture.

I'm intrigued how you arrive at a moral obligation here. Or perhaps I misread your post?

Where I differ is wildlife is not livestock. To the contrary wildlife is wild, it’s beautiful and majestic and in a sense perfect in its environment. Livestock is controlled, depleted of all semblance of its wild ancestors and shouldn’t/wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for us. They are stupid meat vessels or pasture art and would probably die if we didn’t ensure it’s well being. High fence “wildlife” belongs in this category. Wildlife doesn’t need us, it doesn’t want us, and we don’t necessarily rely on it any longer for our existence (unfortunately). So if take a position to pursue it, I believe we should do all that we can to not cheapen its life. We are factors more intelligent than the wildlife we pursue. I personally think there’s an ethical line where we no longer hunt an animal on its terms and to me bait is over that line.
Another thing is legality doesn’t equal morality. With all due respect I don’t use the government to be my litmus test on morals and ethics. They have proven to have the most jacked up barometer on these intangibles, that I’d rather follow my own compass than use theirs.