Apple seeds from grocery store apples

[yoderjac]

So let me make sure I understand correctly in reference to the trees stature? Will they all likely produce big 20ft + standard trees if grafted to? Or is that similar in fruiting quality in that you just don’t know? So I could get shrimp dwarf type trees possibly?

It is a crap shoot. You only know 50% of the genetics. Dwarfing rootstocks have been bred for a specific dwarfing size. "Standard" trees are kind of an average of what one would expect in nature. It is possible that a seedling could be dwarfed by nature or it could be larger than a standard tree. The most likely outcome is a standard tree, but you never know. Some trees like chestnuts tend to be "truer to seed" in terms of nut quality. There is not a huge difference like there can be with apples. Some apples are more "true to seed" than others. Dolgo is often grown from seed and often produces similar fruit, but not always.

Just about anything is possible...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

So let me make sure I understand correctly in reference to the trees stature? Will they all likely produce big 20ft + standard trees if grafted to? Or is that similar in fruiting quality in that you just don’t know? So I could get shrimp dwarf type trees possibly?

Jordan, I agree with what Jack just posted and will add the following:

You know one parent of your seed, but you have no idea what the other parent was. However, there is a good chance it was a ornamental crabapple. In professional orchards, it is a common practice to plant ornamental crabs for pollinating the apple trees that produce fruit.

Reasons for this are:

1. It allows the grower to plant a single cultivar in one area and to manage that area as one unit without anything being mixed up.

2. It eliminates the need for less desirable cultivars just for their use as pollen sources.

3. Third, it prevents laborers from mixing up apples in harvest baskets and bins.

No one knows for sure, but the other parent is likely an ornamental crab. Lots of crabs are not large trees, so there you go. We are back to the box of chocolates...……..

 

[yoderjac]

Jordan, I agree with what Jack just posted and will add the following:

You know one parent of your seed, but you have no idea what the other parent was. However, there is a good chance it was a ornamental crabapple. In professional orchards, it is a common practice to plant ornamental crabs for pollinating the apple trees that produce fruit.

Reasons for this are:

1. It allows the grower to plant a single cultivar in one area and to manage that area as one unit without anything being mixed up.

2. It eliminates the need for less desirable cultivars just for their use as pollen sources.

3. Third, it prevents laborers from mixing up apples in harvest baskets and bins.

No one knows for sure, but the other parent is likely an ornamental crab. Lots of crabs are not large trees, so there you go. We are back to the box of chocolates...……..

Spot on. The master grafter in the class I took loved to tell stories. At one orchard they were having issues with pollination. He sent his guys in and simply grafted a single crabapple branch to each of the production trees. He said it worked great for a year. Production went way back up! The next dormant season, the pruners went in and pruned out the crabapple branches from most of the trees. Talk about the left hand and right hand working against each other!

 

[Jordan Selsor]

You guys are the best! Thank You! Sorry if I seem dense after being on this forum since the beginning! Finally starting to get a handle on the stuff I think;)

 

[Benja]

You guys are the best! Thank You! Sorry if I seem dense after being on this forum since the beginning! Finally starting to get a handle on the stuff I think;)

Thanks for asking all these questions, Jordan. I've had most of the same questions, just never was brave enough to ask them. I'm learning with you.

For the past three years I saved seeds from fruits we liked and planted them with the children. Due to lack of care, only two dozen tough (or lucky) seedlings have survived. We won't be doing it this year, do to schedule and family priorities, but this thread will be immensely useful next time.

 

[Native Hunter]

You guys are the best! Thank You! Sorry if I seem dense after being on this forum since the beginning! Finally starting to get a handle on the stuff I think;)

Glad to help Jordan. I looked last night and found you a link from PennState Extension that goes along with what I said above about placing crabapples in professional orchards. They even list some of the crabapple varieties that are popular as pollinators.

https://extension.psu.edu/orchard-pollination-pollinizers-pollinators-and-weather

 

[cavey]

The simple option is see what you get in a few years... They could be the next hot apples on the market, it would be something you and your kids created and if healthy would be a tree to pass on... generation to generation via cutting scion from it. If it turns into a flop of a tree for fruit top work it. If it does not make it well then tree solved the problem for you on its own.
Like others have mentioned it is a crap shoot - I would guess by the 50% parentage you will get a standard-ish sized tree - but one thing that is not is a crap shoot is the time you spend with your kids on it and the legacy a hand reared tree can bring. If you have a place for them I would just let them run their course for a bit,.. kids love trees like that and will go back to check on "their" tree with hopefully enough excitement to last a life time and beyond. I just had my first child and am dreaming of the day I can show him how to graft and plant so Im jealous of where you are right now.

An additional thought as some have mentioned - the tree will likely have some crab like qualities so at worst it will be a good pollinator and really - for wildlife as long as it produces a fruit its of value to you.

 

[cavey]

Spot on. The master grafter in the class I took loved to tell stories. At one orchard they were having issues with pollination. He sent his guys in and simply grafted a single crabapple branch to each of the production trees. He said it worked great for a year. Production went way back up! The next dormant season, the pruners went in and pruned out the crabapple branches from most of the trees. Talk about the left hand and right hand working against each other!

Not to hijack the topic but Im guilty of cutting off what I created .... I now ribbon my frankensteined tree limbs but know that its not a permanent solution. I have seen painted limbs on younger trees and wondered what for and I think I know why now. Others map their trees but when your out in the orchard.... snip snip gone. I have a couple ideas but none are great. thought about nailing a metal tag on the limb. Any cool tips on what others do would be appreciated as well.

 

[Benja]

Not to hijack the topic but Im guilty of cutting off what I created .... I now ribbon my frankensteined tree limbs but know that its not a permanent solution. I have seen painted limbs on younger trees and wondered what for and I think I know why now. Others map their trees but when your out in the orchard.... snip snip gone. I have a couple ideas but none are great. thought about nailing a metal tag on the limb. Any cool tips on what others do would be appreciated as well.

I'm not an experienced grafter, but I'm planning to loosely tie aluminum tags around the limb just ahead of the graft.

 

[cavey]

I've not an experience grafter, but I'm planning to loosely tie aluminum tags around the limb just ahead of the graft.

Im not sure when one becomes experienced, I started about three years ago and have done about a hundred plus per year and I still have only a basic idea of what I am doing,... so much to learn and so many tricks and methods to still learn about. This site has been a gem for information and the generosity of those that post here is overwhelming.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Benja, post #29 - I've tied aluminum tags engraved with variety, rootstock, and date planted on tree limbs with single strand, insulated copper wire. It'll never rust or corrode off. Take a length of regular house wire and pull each black & white conductor out of the outer jacket. Cut them to the length you want and tie away !! They'll be there for all your life and you can un-twist the wire and move it if you need to later.

As Cavey said in post #28, I've mapped all of our trees & keep the sheets in a binder that stays in my truck when at camp. It's handy as I do any work on the trees. Even if a coon slides a tag off a tree to play with it or a bear breaks the limb with the tag - I still know by the map which tree is which. Saves headaches.

 

[DLH]

Does anyone know if apple seeds can be stored for later germination? I have done them in the fridge before but what if it’s a summer apple and want to wait until the following spring?

 

[BuckSnort]

I just bought Antonovka seeds this year. They have been cleaned, dried, and stored in a plastic bag. Then I can start them whenever works for me. Over several years of storage I would imagine the germination rate would decrease but within the same year you’ll be just fine.

 

[yoderjac]

Does anyone know if apple seeds can be stored for later germination? I have done them in the fridge before but what if it’s a summer apple and want to wait until the following spring?

Yes they can keep. Similar to chestnuts, they need enough moisture so they don't dry out and die, but not enough to stratify. Make sure they are well hydrated, put them in a ziplock 3/4 closed and folded over and put them in the crisper. If you have a separate fridge for this, I'd turn then temp down so it is just above freezing. When you are ready for them to begin stratification, simply add moist medium. They are less susceptible to mold than chestnuts but they can still get it. I like long-fiber sphagnum as a medium.

Speaking of medium for cold stratification, I changed my approach slightly this year for chestnuts and I like it better. No mold issues at all this year. I'm now mixing long-fiber sphagnum with regular sphagnum. The long fiber has better anti-fungal properties, but it less consistent in form. I found that using long fiber alone I had spots on some nuts that were much more wet than others. Mixing them seems to give me the best of both worlds.

I haven't tried this with apple seeds, but I presume it would have the same effect.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[BuckSnort]

I’m just using sawdust, it’s my first try at things. No issues yet but they’ve only been in about a month.

 

[yoderjac]

I’m just using sawdust, it’s my first try at things. No issues yet but they’ve only been in about a month.

That may be good enough for apple seeds. Chestnuts are much more susceptible to mold because of the high carb content and the fact that they are not protected inside the fruit. If the source collects chestnuts after they have been on the ground, they have a higher potential for mold spore exposure at the source. You don't have this exposure risk with apple seeds. I simply use the long-fiber sphagnum for apples because I have it for chestnuts. I know a lot of folks who just use saw dust or sphagnum for other seeds with success.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Jordan Selsor]

I too changed my strategy for chestnut this yr. I have had major mold issues in the past. This yr I gave my chestnuts a bath with a doss of peroxide. Did this twice. No mold and they just started germinating this wk. Feels good to have finally figured out a solid mold free method! I just use a damp paper towel. Also soaked in same light peroxide solution.

 

[DLH]

I use the fine peat moss for chestnuts instead of spaghum moss. The peat is partially decayed from the bogs and spaghum is what they harvest yearly. At least that’s the way I understand it from others. I just soak the peat with water squeeze it out and put the chestnuts in. I haven’t had any mold issues yet. I have also kept scions in this as well and they had green cambium after a year.

 

[yoderjac]

As long as you don't have mold issues, I'd keep doing what works for you. The only advantage to the long-fiber is that is not as decayed as much and has more antifungal properties. I actually used live sphagnum one year. It worked very well but was much less convenient to obtain. I use the squeeze method as well.

Jordon,

I have not tried peroxide but I have tried the bleach solution. Not only did it not work, I found that there is a reaction between the bleach and something in the chestnut shell. One year when I had a bad mold issue, I tried cleaning my nuts by using a small container of 10% bleach solution and paper towels to wipe off each nut individually. After cleaning enough nuts I noticed my fingers were stinging. I've handled bleach in much higher concentrations with no reaction. After looking more closely I found that all the hair had been chemically burned off my fingers. I believe there was a base/acid reaction between the bleach and the nut. I've stopped washing nuts in a bleach solution ever since then.

I have not tried peroxide. I know it is something they recommend in cloning machines to deal with these kinds of issues.

Thanks,

Jack

 

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