Starting Apples from Seed Indoors - How To

[yoderjac]

Some of my apple seedlings were getting close to being too tall for my grow box so today I decided to make my next adjustment. I took the largest tray of Wickson seedlings out an moved them to my tall grow area (just an open area with lights adjustable clear up to the ceiling if necessary. While some of the seedlings were developing into nice whips, many were snaking with sharp bends as apples tend to do. I've never staked trees while they were still in 18s before, but I decided to give it a try while the central leader is still green and pliable. We will see how it works. I'll probably cull the seedlings that don't want to straighten up.

I think I'm going to transplant them to 1 gal RB2s on the early side but I think they need at least a few more weeks in 18s before I tray.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I've continued to bring apple seedlings out of the grow box and stake the ones that were not growing straight. Here is a pic of the seedlings I now have out side the grow boxes:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Knehrke]

Jack,

Are you using small cable ties to hold them to the stakes?

 

[yoderjac]

No. They are small twist ties that I can reuse. I'm not binding them tightly to the flag; I'm leaving some room for growth before there is constriction. I plan to start transplanting the larger ones a bit early, perhaps the middle of next month. None will be constricted at that point. When I transplant them, I'll readjust the twist ties.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Ok, I've started to take the next step. Yes, it is way early to transplant to 1 gal RB2s according to Whitcomb, but I wanted to experiment with early transplanting of larger trees. I only transplanted my two largest Wickson:

I plan to wait at least a few more weeks before transplanting the next few. I did not shake the root balls when I removed them from the 18s but none of the medium fell off. I'm guessing if I had tried shaking them a bit I would have lost medium. Very few roots were visible externally. The tap root had clearly been pruned.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The number of seedlings that have passed the first cull and have been transplanted into 1 gal RB2s is growing:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I continue to transplant a few per day to 1 gal RB2s. So far over 30 have made the cut:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Jack,

Will you be transplanting to 3 gal RBIIs?

How do you determine timing of transplantation?

Bill

 

[yoderjac]

Yes I will. I'm doing some experimenting with transplant time. The nominal time in 18s is 12-16 weeks, but I'm transplanting some of these apples to 1 gals early to see what effect that has on growth. If you look at my thread on maximizing growth thread for chestnuts: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/ you will see some of the timing I've used in the past with chestnuts. I did the same multiple transplants in one season with some crabapples I grew from seed. Details here: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/apple-planning-phase-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5536/. That worked out pretty well. I plan to do something similar.

In general, you want the container to prune roots and fill before transplanting but Dr. Whitcomb says it is better to transplant a bit early rather than late if you want to maximize growth. When containers become hard to top water, it is because all of the air space in the mix has been filled by roots. When that occurs, it is time to transplant.

Last time I transplanted into 3 gals in late spring or early summer. I'd guess it was June. Growth slows in September in my area so the 3 gals were not totally filled with roots when I planted them in the field. In previous years, I began to acclimate my trees as soon as our last threat of frost passed which is mid April. I found that trees stalled for a bit before taking off. I think this was due to the cool nights in April. I plan to try something different this year. As you see, I transplanted from 18s a bit early into 1 gals. I plan to keep these 1 gals under lights indoors for an extra month. I plan to begin acclimating them in mid-May. Since I have a shaded lower deck that only gets morning sun, I think I can wait for warmer nights before acclimating them. I'm hoping not to get that stall period. I'll just watch them and try to make a judgment call as when to transplant them to 3 gals. It definitely won't occur before they go outside.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I now have over 50 apple trees that have made the first cut and been transplanted in to 1 gal. I've completely filled the growing area shown in the picture in a previous post and am now starting on the next growing area. I still have lots left in 18s. Some were simply started later and others are simply slower growers, and some will be culled.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Knehrke]

I don't have the room that you do, so mine are staying in 18s for awhile. They're not nearly as pretty as yours, either. I got some good initial growth on several dozen, then they slowed and lately there's been some rust colored spots on the leaves and some yellowing. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they're okay. My Siberian Peashrub are also yellowing with the lower leaves starting to fall off. I've cut back on the water some, since I was getting a few fungus gnats; maybe that will help. I really think that I was too eager and started the seeds too early. I love to see all the variety in the basement.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't have the room that you do, so mine are staying in 18s for awhile. They're not nearly as pretty as yours, either. I got some good initial growth on several dozen, then they slowed and lately there's been some rust colored spots on the leaves and some yellowing. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they're okay. My Siberian Peashrub are also yellowing with the lower leaves starting to fall off. I've cut back on the water some, since I was getting a few fungus gnats; maybe that will help. I really think that I was too eager and started the seeds too early. I love to see all the variety in the basement.

Typically one would keep them in 18s for 12 to 16 weeks. I'm doing some experimenting with these. I'm transplanting a few every day or two. It appears I'm getting more growth form the early transplant but time will tell. I dated the transplant of each seedling. There will be some bias because rather than constantly adjusting lights, I've been transplanting the tallest trees first. I should take another picture.

This is my first go with apples in quantity so my experience base with them specifically is limited. With chestnuts and other trees I've grown, a browning of leaf margins is often related to a water issue. Yellowing and loosing a couple lower leaves is normal as long as the rest of the tree seems healthy. I like to use rain water not city water however this year we had limited snow and rain this winter for me to refill my stored rain water supply. So, I make a call to conserve my rain water by using city water on apples in 18s. I figure I have more than I need so if I see a problem and lose some it will be fine. I'm still using my remaining rain water for chestnuts and Allegheny chinquapins. So far I've seen no issues.

I found that my apples consume water much faster than chestnuts and AC. I'm using promix in my 18s and I don't seem to be able to over water them. Once they got going producing top growth, they dry out very quickly. I water by weight. At first, I was watering them like chestnuts and ACs, but I've been watering the chestnuts and ACs much less frequently. A few of my apples will have the top leaves wilt and droop if I don't water frequently enough and that is a key I waited too long.

In previous years I've had issues with fungus gnats. I would mix crumbled misquote dunks with my promix, hang electrical tape from my lights to catch adults and run a bug zapper. I only had moderate success controlling them. I think I found a better way. This year, when I plant in an 18, I immediately spray the surface with a permethrin solution. I've had zero fungus gnats this year. Maybe I'm just lucky but I think it is the permethrin. It is the same stuff I've been using to deal with Japanese beetles and other pests when my trees are on my deck. I find it lasts longer before retreatment is needed than Sevin.

Post some pics! I'd love to see your work!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here are those latest pics I promised:

These are the runts and those started late. They are still in 18s.

This is the first grow area that has the first transplants with the largest trees. For reference, the tallest tree you see in the picture in the front row is 41" above the top of the mix.

This is the new grow area I'm just starting to fill. These are the most recently transplanted apples. (The large 3 gal RB2s in the background don't contain apples, they contain the Seguins I bought from the wildlife group).

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I decided to start acclimating them to the outdoors today. I used cable ties to hook some PVC to the railing on my lower deck. I then used some paracord to provide some vertical support. Here are most of the apple seedlings:

I still have roughly two trays of 18s that I still need to transplant.

Thanks,

Jck

 

[montavonm]

This is awesome. I tried this same thing last year but used styrofoam 20oz cups and just put them in the window. I had over 100 trees... I didn't acclimate them to the sun but just planted them outside all at once and they all turned purple. I didn't think they would live at all, but I checked them for the first time this spring and most of them have sprouted new leaves.

Your trees are looking awesome YJ.

 

[yoderjac]

This is awesome. I tried this same thing last year but used styrofoam 20oz cups and just put them in the window. I had over 100 trees... I didn't acclimate them to the sun but just planted them outside all at once and they all turned purple. I didn't think they would live at all, but I checked them for the first time this spring and most of them have sprouted new leaves.

Your trees are looking awesome YJ.

Glad to hear yours have survived. I'm probably going to try cutting down some of the larger ones in another month or so and chip budding them. The largest are a few inches over 50 and right about 1/4" in diameter. I'd like to get a bit more diameter before I give chip budding a try.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I started to do some culling today. I often talk about the dense fibrous root system produced by a root pruning container system. However, I never disturb my root ball because that lack of disturbance is one of the advantages of transplanting and finally planting from RB2 containers. Well, disturbing the root ball doesn't matter if you are culling the seedling. So, I took some pictures.

These are pictures of seedling that didn't make the cut of being transplanted into 1 gal RB2s. They are some of my runts. Even so, notice how dense and fibrous the root ball is coming directly from an 18 cell:

I shook of as much medium as I could for the photos.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Knehrke]

Your culls look like my transplants!! I moved a dozen trees to 1 gallon RM yesterday and the root balls filled the entire RM18...I probably should have moved them earlier, but I had limited room...however, the top growth is nothing like what you've seen. Mine were from wild crabapple seeds of unknown variety, so there's bound to be genetic diversity.

 

[yoderjac]

I've been experimenting with mine. I started transplanting the largest trees earlier than the normal 12-16 weeks. I have so many that I've transplanted a few a day over a long period. I'm interested to see how transplant time affects growth. I'm hoping that I can successfully chip bud some of the largest ones soon. You are right about genetic diversity. I've used both crabapple and seeds and seed from domestic apples. There does not seem to be any consistency except between diploid and triploid groups. Time will tell how this works out. Glad to hear you are having some success!

 

[yoderjac]

I thought it was time to update this thread. I finished transplanting all the apples today from 18s to 1 gals. I have not transplanted anything into 3 gal RB2s yet. I also started to try grafting some of these young seedlings this week. I wanted to see if grafts took before transplanting them to 3 gals and most probably haven't filled the 1 gals yet.

My chip budding of young seedlings is discussed in more detail on this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/unusual-apple-grafting-question.7198/ but I want to include some pictures here for completeness. I'm learning as I go and I don't yet know if this early grafting will work.

Here is a picture of a seedling before I started:

After my first attempt at chip budding it looked like this:

I grafted 2 or 3 buds to each seedling. Some folks thought I removed too much of the tree and that I should keep leaves above the grafts so I changed my approach for the next group.

With this group, I only removed about 1/3 of the tree. I then removed leaves in the middle and chip budded there. I've been grafting a few each day this week. I won't know for a couple weeks if any of this works.

Thanks,

Jack