Starting Apples from Seed Indoors - How To

[yoderjac]

So are you saying that "antique" apples with good disease resistance are only so because a relatively few of those trees haven being grown over the history of that variety? Where as say something like "Honey Crisp" will eventually be devastated by disease unless better ____icides are developed due to the shear volume of the trees being grown?

No, I'm not saying that is the only reason, but I'm saying that can be part of the reason. I'm thinking in terms of genetics. Genes are retained through multiple generations when they advantage the organism in terms of passing on genes. I genetic mutation in a disease that only advantages the disease in a small population of geospatially diverse trees has less chance of prevalence in the next generation than a mutation that advantages the disease against large populations of concentrated trees.

I'm saying this is one factor in disease resistance, not the only one. It is my understanding that in general, Triploid apples often have more disease resistance than diploid due to the extra set of chromosomes. There are many factors involved in disease resistance. I do think that the population of a particular variety is one factor.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I think from the disease perspective in terms of wildlife trees most of us are probably on the same page. If the tree produces good amounts of fruit, and the tree stays healthy enough to produce yearly crops of fruit for decades then it is a winner.

Yes, to clarify, when I say "than it does to many" the many refers to orchardists, not wildlife managers. They care about taste, looks, insect damage, and many other factors we don't.

 

[sandbur]

Crab seedlings planted in 2009. Seed was gathered from wild trees in fall of 2007. One of the bird sized crabs was top worked.

 

[sandbur]

Crab seedlings planted 2010. Seed collected fall of 2008 from wild crab trees.

 

[sandbur]

Waxwings in one of Charlie Morse's bunches crabs. I believe he grows these from seed. They are variable in apple size and in hardiness.

Most of my bunches are just bird feed.

 

[yoderjac]

Great pics Sandbur! Nice looking trees.

 

[sandbur]

Crab seedlings planted in 2009. Seed was gathered from wild trees in fall of 2007. One of the bird sized crabs was top worked.View attachment 11769

You will notice the tree on far right still has a few apples on it. They are about 1.25 inches in size. Other trees from the same seed collection have flowering crab sized apples. somewhere I have a picture of two of these same trees with red blossoms on one and white blossoms on the next.

 

[Big Snow Man]

Crab seedlings planted 2010. Seed collected fall of 2008 from wild crab trees.
View attachment 11770

Sandbur are those the trees you started from seed with the "how to" information you provided on the QDMA site a few years back ?

 

[yoderjac]

If so, then that is one I wish I had captured and brought over here.

 

[Neahawg]

Yoder when looking for good low maintenance apple trees for a somewhat similar to yours and my zone I like to go back through Native Hunters thread.

He has grown several apples and pears without a spray program and still produces a lot of fruit. Throughout the thread he list varieties that did and didn't work for him.

I know you don't want to graft all your trees over but for a few options on the ones you do that's a great place to start.

 

[yoderjac]

Yoder when looking for good low maintenance apple trees for a somewhat similar to yours and my zone I like to go back through Native Hunters thread.

He has grown several apples and pears without a spray program and still produces a lot of fruit. Throughout the thread he list varieties that did and didn't work for him.

I know you don't want to graft all your trees over but for a few options on the ones you do that's a great place to start.

Yes, I've done that and had several good conversations with him. He was kind enough to send me some bud sticks to try this year. It was my first try at t-budding and I got the timing wrong and doubt any took. He is a wealth of information.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Big Snow Man]

If so, then that is one I wish I had captured and brought over here.

What I remember was he planted them outside in some type of container in the fall and in the spring he had germination. I don't remember any more than that.

 

[yoderjac]

What I remember was he planted them outside in some type of container in the fall and in the spring he had germination. I don't remember any more than that.

Whatever the method was, he is an experienced grower, and the more methods documented with pros and cons, the more it helps folks adapt them to their situations.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sandbur]

Sandbur are those the trees you started from seed with the "how to" information you provided on the QDMA site a few years back ?

Yup.

 

[sandbur]

What I remember was he planted them outside in some type of container in the fall and in the spring he had germination. I don't remember any more than that.

I am not sure if you are referring to me.

1. Collect the seeds in the fall and dry them on a paper plate. Top of the fridge works for me.

2.Take some recycled plastic pots that flowers like petunias come in. Fill to 1 inch from the top with dirt.

3. Put a few seeds in each corner of the pot and a few in the center. Cover with 1/4 inch of sand.

4. Bury to ground level in the garden. Cover with 1/4 inch mesh to keep mice out and put a rock on top of the mesh to hold it in place.

5.Leave them in the garden until spring (Minnesota) or dig a few out and put them in a se window like you would grow tomatoes from seed.

6. Transfer to roottrapper bags as soon as they emerge. They are easy to lift out of the corners of the pots. Leave the center one in the pot if you wish.

7. I eased them outside after danger of frost was over. Protect from wind and sun the first few days. Perhaps you have done the same thing with tomato plants.

8. I wintered them in the roottrapper bags, buried to ground level in the garden. Fenced with 1/4 mesh for mice and 4 foot fence for deer. The window screen can also be used instead of /4 inch mesh.

I have lots of pictures in the old computer if anyone wants to see a certain step.

 

[yoderjac]

I am not sure if you are referring to me.

1. Collect the seeds in the fall and dry them on a paper plate. Top of the fridge works for me.

2.Take some recycled plastic pots that flowers like petunias come in. Fill to 1 inch from the top with dirt.

3. Put a few seeds in each corner of the pot and a few in the center. Cover with 1/4 inch of sand.

4. Bury to ground level in the garden. Cover with 1/4 inch mesh to keep mice out and put a rock on top of the mesh to hold it in place.

5.Leave them in the garden until spring (Minnesota) or dig a few out and put them in a se window like you would grow tomatoes from seed.

6. Transfer to roottrapper bags as soon as they emerge. They are easy to lift out of the corners of the pots. Leave the center one in the pot if you wish.

7. I eased them outside after danger of frost was over. Protect from wind and sun the first few days. Perhaps you have done the same thing with tomato plants.

8. I wintered them in the roottrapper bags, buried to ground level in the garden. Fenced with 1/4 mesh for mice and 4 foot fence for deer. The window screen can also be used instead of /4 inch mesh.

I have lots of pictures in the old computer if anyone wants to see a certain step.

Sounds like a very reasonable approach. When I read information on apple seeds I found a lot of folks dried seeds like you did. I found one research paper that tried several methods including drying and chilling fresh. Several of the methods they tried had good germination rates, but I think the best was fresh. The time your seeds spend in the garden is analogous to my chill time in the fridge. The study showed they got the best rates with at least a month of chilling. That is why I kept mine in the fridge a month.

The only potential issue I see is the window option in step 5. That might need some clarification for folks. If you wait until spring that can work fine, but if you try to do that in the middle of winter you may have an issue. Dr. Whitcomb talks about issues with root development when trees are started in a greenhouse in the winter (same idea as a SE window). They may look OK on top but you don't get proper root development. Here is a thread that demonstrates that: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...transferred-from-old-forums.5727/#post-111516 If folks wait until the sun is higher in the sky and more intense (early spring) that option would work. Otherwise they need supplemental light for proper root development.

I think your method is an especially good one for folks that want root pruned trees and don't have an indoor growing setup.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[sandbur]

Our snow usually disappears in March. I would try and dig a few pots out in early March if we had a snow melt. Days were getting longer.

Grand ma in law gave me a handful of apple trees from her flower bed and told me how she started them. When she made apple pie, she would throw the apple seeds in her flower garden which was just outside her door. Every few years she would have a bunch of apple trees to give away. She always made pie from trees she had planted years before. Yellow apples, red apples, none were very large but just beyond lunchbox crab sized. I tried her method and planted seeds in a row and got one tree. Mice ate the seeds, rabbits chewed off the young trees.


One apple was pink to red fleshed and tasted great after a frost.Hardy at the edge of zone 3. And my mother in law had it cut down.

 

[yoderjac]

I think March is fine. Dr. Whitcomb was warning about starting them in December or January in a greenhouse without artificial light. I just wanted to clarify the timing for others reading the thread.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Jack,

This seems counter intuitive

How is artificial light preferable over natural sunlight ? What is the theory and reasoning? Evidence?

bill

 

[Neahawg]

I think it's only better when growing indoors during the winter. If for instance you put your seedlings in a window they are likely to grow toward the window rather than straight up.

A lot of people who start chestnuts inside would do this and had some elaborate setups. I know of several who had there light on a pulley system so they could have the light just a few inches above the seedlings at a time hopefully preventing them from stretching for the light and becoming tall and lanky.

Then when the threat of killing cold/frost is gone you move them outside where natural light is best, but you have to gradually introduce them to natural light or it will burn them.

Overall it's just a habitat related project you can do during the winter to help with the cabin fever. Some say it gives the seedlings a jump on trees planted outdoors because they have been growing for several weeks or months before outdoor seedling break dormancy, but I think that difference is negligible.