Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Not at all Jack, and no problem at all. I just lost interest in the discussion because of the reasons I stated. Perhaps we will do that weed plot thread someday.
An evolving approach to wildilfe management
- Thread starter yoderjac
- Start date
Not at all Jack, and no problem at all. I just lost interest in the discussion because of the reasons I stated. Perhaps we will do that weed plot thread someday.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
All I have done is provide information and state facts.
No, I have not insured that anyone will hesitate for fear of being ridiculed, because I have removed myself from any further comments in the thread. I'm not a threat to anyone anymore.
Carry on, and best wishes!!
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
Well dang….I never realized dog fennel was such a sensitive subject with some folks. Who knew. So much for talking about my sicklepod experiments I guess.
Last edited:
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
There was one thing I forgot to mention - I'm only removing myself when I get the last word with you. I gave you a chance to quit and even wished you the best, but you had to poke another jab. This is your chance for a peaceful ending with no hard feelings. Otherwise, I may say what I really think, which I haven't done yet.
It's your choice - if you want to really take Jack's thread to the pits, fire away.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Gents,
None of us have all the answers. Both of you guys are very experienced and knowledgeable in different areas. Our similarities are much greater than our differences here. Perhaps we should start a thread on dog fennel specifically. While specific weeds were not my intent with this thread, I have lots of questions about the best way to manage it.
For example, I'll never get rid of it. It is in our seed bank. We just had a pine thinning and I find plenty growing there. So for me it is a management question. I can deal with it by spraying with 24d amine along with gly before I drill my soybeans for my warm season annuals. For clover, I'm not sure there is much I can spray. I an mow it. I have not found it to be a real issue yet in my clover but that is not to say it won't. If I don't spray it or continually mow it, I'm sure it will bounce back from the root system next year. Given I don't have time to constantly mow clover (and I have a mix of weeds both beneficial and noxious in my clover), how should I manage it? Does that depend on location? For example, I understand it doesn't go to seed until September and October. By the end of August my heat is over. What is the downside of waiting until the end of August to mow it? It seems to be working so far.
Perhaps these questions are better answered in another thread....
Thanks,
Jack
None of us have all the answers. Both of you guys are very experienced and knowledgeable in different areas. Our similarities are much greater than our differences here. Perhaps we should start a thread on dog fennel specifically. While specific weeds were not my intent with this thread, I have lots of questions about the best way to manage it.
For example, I'll never get rid of it. It is in our seed bank. We just had a pine thinning and I find plenty growing there. So for me it is a management question. I can deal with it by spraying with 24d amine along with gly before I drill my soybeans for my warm season annuals. For clover, I'm not sure there is much I can spray. I an mow it. I have not found it to be a real issue yet in my clover but that is not to say it won't. If I don't spray it or continually mow it, I'm sure it will bounce back from the root system next year. Given I don't have time to constantly mow clover (and I have a mix of weeds both beneficial and noxious in my clover), how should I manage it? Does that depend on location? For example, I understand it doesn't go to seed until September and October. By the end of August my heat is over. What is the downside of waiting until the end of August to mow it? It seems to be working so far.
Perhaps these questions are better answered in another thread....
Thanks,
Jack
I am not familiar with dog funnel, but I'm glad I dont have to deal with it. But the way that it outcompetes the other plants sorta reminds me of what I deal with in burdock and ragweed in one of my plots. I dont mind the ragweed so much, but the burdock is a different story. I know the burdock can be managed with mowing, spraying, and even frequent disking. My plots are small and in trees so I tend to shy away from spraying, even though my agronomist brother disagrees. However, a few years ago I had great success with controlling both with an early planting of brassicas. That year their was basically none of either growing in the plot, so I thought I had broken the cycle. The following year I did a bean and lablab mix and their was some re-emergence. Last year I did a clover plot and they were back like previous years. I'm back to brassicas this year. Here is a theory I'm considering based off that experience.
Find something that germinates first, provides some canapy, and can outcompete for water and nutrients. Than follow it up with something different but follows the same principles.
With the root system that dogfunnel has I'd shy away from breaking ground, as it would likely result in spreading it. I'd broadcast and maybe cultipack a rotation of brassicas first year, than buckwheat, brassicas, buckwheat, than back to clover would be enough to break the cycle and get it under control. You would probably still have some clover remaining initially. The taproot from the brassicas should pull nutrients back to the surface and as it decomposes provide nitrogen etc for the buckwheat, and the buckwheat should provide phosphorus for aiding in good initial growth of the brassicas.
I assume one could follow the buckwheat with something like oats after the growing season of the dogfunnel. I'd likely fertilize and plant the brassicas before a guaranteed 1/4" rain to make sure you get good initial growth. You may have to change up the plants used, but an approach like that may help get it controlled. Its a theory I hope is effective, but if not than I'll be spraying.
Find something that germinates first, provides some canapy, and can outcompete for water and nutrients. Than follow it up with something different but follows the same principles.
With the root system that dogfunnel has I'd shy away from breaking ground, as it would likely result in spreading it. I'd broadcast and maybe cultipack a rotation of brassicas first year, than buckwheat, brassicas, buckwheat, than back to clover would be enough to break the cycle and get it under control. You would probably still have some clover remaining initially. The taproot from the brassicas should pull nutrients back to the surface and as it decomposes provide nitrogen etc for the buckwheat, and the buckwheat should provide phosphorus for aiding in good initial growth of the brassicas.
I assume one could follow the buckwheat with something like oats after the growing season of the dogfunnel. I'd likely fertilize and plant the brassicas before a guaranteed 1/4" rain to make sure you get good initial growth. You may have to change up the plants used, but an approach like that may help get it controlled. Its a theory I hope is effective, but if not than I'll be spraying.
Good morning gentlemen
This has been a great discussion about weeds and other plants. I have no intense knowledge of plants in wildlife settings other than what I have seen in the last 25 years of land ownership and learned to observe after reading about weeds and subjects on forums. Have worked in and been involved with tame landscaping all my life. My opinions and observations may not strike everyone in the same chord as they are only what I have experienced.
Two plants have been mentioned that people have very different opinions of
Crabgrass- Planted some plots no till with an old pasture dream overseeder. Did not have the cash, equipment or time to spray before seeding. As expected down here, later in the summer crabgrass took over and grew to about a foot and a half tall before seeding out. I was in a panic to do something but had no time or money so I just watched in disgust as the crabgrass grew and grew. Then the army worms made their ugly appearance. Thought I would lose all plants in the plot. Funny thing happened, the worms only ate the crabgrass foliage and some volunteer brown top millet. Nothing left but stems and seed heads. I was devastated until while walking late in the afternoon a week later I saw movement in the crabgrass plots. Turkeys Turkeys and more Turkeys. 42 the first day I saw them in a 4 acre section of worm stripped crabgrass. Army worms turned the foliage into manure and the turkeys did the same with the seeds. Was left with stems, lots of stems. After reading about CNC's method of throw and mow, threw out seed for fall and what happened was amazing. A new plot for the price of bushogging. Benefits of crabgrass-army worms did not eat plot plants, provided seed for turkeys, and provided thatch for a throw and mow plot. The outcome was amazing but if I had had the money and time I would have tilled to bare dirt and tried to do something else.
Dog Fennel- Ugly, tall, stinks, takes over areas. Have an area of 5 acres next to a public road. The road is elevated about ten feet above the lower part of the field. The field rises to road level in the upper part of the field and is bordered on both sides and the back with twelve year old cutover. Tried planting plot crops but the upper part turned to dog fennel. Tried plowing, fertilizer, and corn to screen upper part of the plot. Corn died so notilled sudan-soughum into what little corn remained. Made a sparse stand but did provide some screening for the clover plot behind it. Fast forward to this spring and dog fennel populated the screen area. Had no time or money to plow and seed again so I said to heck with it and let the dog fennel get after it. I thought the area was a total loss till last week. Dog fennel has grown into a thick screen that will be standing till long after deer season closes. No money or effort to have a screen to keep the road hunters form shooting into the property.
My opinions are mine and not everyone agrees but these two WEEDS will be in my plot arsenal for as long as I have dirt here. No way to totally eliminate these plants where I live.
Not everyone will agree and if someone sprays and kill these weeds it is ok by me.
Sorta relate to turning a sow's ear into a silk purse to use an old cliche.
Hope everyone has a great weekend
This has been a great discussion about weeds and other plants. I have no intense knowledge of plants in wildlife settings other than what I have seen in the last 25 years of land ownership and learned to observe after reading about weeds and subjects on forums. Have worked in and been involved with tame landscaping all my life. My opinions and observations may not strike everyone in the same chord as they are only what I have experienced.
Two plants have been mentioned that people have very different opinions of
Crabgrass- Planted some plots no till with an old pasture dream overseeder. Did not have the cash, equipment or time to spray before seeding. As expected down here, later in the summer crabgrass took over and grew to about a foot and a half tall before seeding out. I was in a panic to do something but had no time or money so I just watched in disgust as the crabgrass grew and grew. Then the army worms made their ugly appearance. Thought I would lose all plants in the plot. Funny thing happened, the worms only ate the crabgrass foliage and some volunteer brown top millet. Nothing left but stems and seed heads. I was devastated until while walking late in the afternoon a week later I saw movement in the crabgrass plots. Turkeys Turkeys and more Turkeys. 42 the first day I saw them in a 4 acre section of worm stripped crabgrass. Army worms turned the foliage into manure and the turkeys did the same with the seeds. Was left with stems, lots of stems. After reading about CNC's method of throw and mow, threw out seed for fall and what happened was amazing. A new plot for the price of bushogging. Benefits of crabgrass-army worms did not eat plot plants, provided seed for turkeys, and provided thatch for a throw and mow plot. The outcome was amazing but if I had had the money and time I would have tilled to bare dirt and tried to do something else.
Dog Fennel- Ugly, tall, stinks, takes over areas. Have an area of 5 acres next to a public road. The road is elevated about ten feet above the lower part of the field. The field rises to road level in the upper part of the field and is bordered on both sides and the back with twelve year old cutover. Tried planting plot crops but the upper part turned to dog fennel. Tried plowing, fertilizer, and corn to screen upper part of the plot. Corn died so notilled sudan-soughum into what little corn remained. Made a sparse stand but did provide some screening for the clover plot behind it. Fast forward to this spring and dog fennel populated the screen area. Had no time or money to plow and seed again so I said to heck with it and let the dog fennel get after it. I thought the area was a total loss till last week. Dog fennel has grown into a thick screen that will be standing till long after deer season closes. No money or effort to have a screen to keep the road hunters form shooting into the property.
My opinions are mine and not everyone agrees but these two WEEDS will be in my plot arsenal for as long as I have dirt here. No way to totally eliminate these plants where I live.
Not everyone will agree and if someone sprays and kill these weeds it is ok by me.
Sorta relate to turning a sow's ear into a silk purse to use an old cliche.
Hope everyone has a great weekend
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
Good post Lew……..Here’s a pic showing dog fennel being used for screening in the background. This is late in the season and it’s still standing great. It stood all winter. No cost in establishment.
Last edited:
I have a lot of respect for both CNC and NH. Both are goodly men with a genuine passion for trying to do what is right by the land and the critters over which we have been granted stewardship. I tend to think the differences in perspective are a result of both geography and inherent limitations of certain soil types.
On northern properties with poor soil pH and nutrient levels, bracken fern is one of the few plants that will grow. As such, they tend to dominate in these areas, to the exclusion of anything else, and with little obvious benefit to man or wildlife. One of the goals on some of these properties is to improve soil condition to the point where other things grow well enough to out-compete ferns. I suspect that ferns are the "dog fennel" of the north?
When I go to the trouble of planting a food plot in the Far North, I have specific goals in mind. In my area, the winter months can be brutal on deer, so I'm trying to fatten them up in the fall and provide green food ASAP, in the spring. While I am willing to compromise on those goals, somewhat, I will not capitulate and allow my hard work to go for naught. I would also say that most of us prefer to take a pro-active approach to conservation, versus a more "hands-off" approach to preservation. It can be argued that both have their place, but they are quite different in some ways. I tend to think CNC is gradually trending toward more of a preservationist mindset, cultivating native plant types, both "good" and "bad", in a "managed meadow" approach.
I would venture to say that all of us on this site have a great deal more in common than we have differences. Having met NH in person, and not yet having had the pleasure with CNC, I'm fairly certain this is a classic example of the Internet creating a disconnect in communication that would likely never occur, in person. This is more than just a case of "to each his own". Put these two guys on the same property, at the same time, and I believe they would leave friends at the end of the day. Their obvious enthusiasm for magnifying God's blessings is too clear for their differences to be of any significance.
On northern properties with poor soil pH and nutrient levels, bracken fern is one of the few plants that will grow. As such, they tend to dominate in these areas, to the exclusion of anything else, and with little obvious benefit to man or wildlife. One of the goals on some of these properties is to improve soil condition to the point where other things grow well enough to out-compete ferns. I suspect that ferns are the "dog fennel" of the north?
When I go to the trouble of planting a food plot in the Far North, I have specific goals in mind. In my area, the winter months can be brutal on deer, so I'm trying to fatten them up in the fall and provide green food ASAP, in the spring. While I am willing to compromise on those goals, somewhat, I will not capitulate and allow my hard work to go for naught. I would also say that most of us prefer to take a pro-active approach to conservation, versus a more "hands-off" approach to preservation. It can be argued that both have their place, but they are quite different in some ways. I tend to think CNC is gradually trending toward more of a preservationist mindset, cultivating native plant types, both "good" and "bad", in a "managed meadow" approach.
I would venture to say that all of us on this site have a great deal more in common than we have differences. Having met NH in person, and not yet having had the pleasure with CNC, I'm fairly certain this is a classic example of the Internet creating a disconnect in communication that would likely never occur, in person. This is more than just a case of "to each his own". Put these two guys on the same property, at the same time, and I believe they would leave friends at the end of the day. Their obvious enthusiasm for magnifying God's blessings is too clear for their differences to be of any significance.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Broom,
You're spot on. There are some folks on this forum that just like to argue for the sake of controversy and some who think their methods are the right ones regardless of the fact that folks in other regions or circumstances may be different. This is NOT the case with either of these guys. They both have long histories of learning, teaching, and helping others on the old forum. We all have individual triggers, and typed text loses much of the subtleties of conversation.
The fact that they chose not to let things get out of hand speaks a lot for their characters.
Thanks,
Jack
You're spot on. There are some folks on this forum that just like to argue for the sake of controversy and some who think their methods are the right ones regardless of the fact that folks in other regions or circumstances may be different. This is NOT the case with either of these guys. They both have long histories of learning, teaching, and helping others on the old forum. We all have individual triggers, and typed text loses much of the subtleties of conversation.
The fact that they chose not to let things get out of hand speaks a lot for their characters.
Thanks,
Jack
Bowman
5 year old buck +
I am in northern Michigan and agree with the prevalence of bracken fern. I have established a few plots and the ferns kept appearing. After mowing, the ferns have been reduced. One is planted in clovers and chicory. Ferns did reappear. Another field was planted in clovers and rape. That field has been overseeded with rye and Austrian Winter Peas 8/29 and rye alone 9/21. That field has had trees removed and more to be taken out. The trees are still laying in the field. They and the others to be cut will be removed next year. My wife recognized that the ferns had not reappeared. She "joked" that the ferns communicated that these field were no longer a friendly environment anymore. She may be correct. The field regrew the rye this spring and the clover half is thriving. No re-emergence of the ferns. Nothing was done in that field this year except for overseeding the rye and Austrian Winter Peas this year.
Yesterday, while getting some wood for a fire, we kicked up a buck bedding in the downed trees and rye regrowth. Big grins.
Are you making any progress with the ferns? No spray, just mowing and none done this year in that plot. No ferns.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Kind of a an evolution to the thread, but has anyone brought up methods to promote or encourage the weeds THEY WANT. I know that early successional plants prefer certain pH levels, fertility, and amounts of organic matter. After those plants have modified the soil to a certain extent other plants will replace them. Anyone using soil amendments to promote certain classes of native or naturalized plants from the start?
Ferns usually give way to other plants when the soil has been improved to the point where those other plants thrive and out compete the ferns. Increasing the pH and the CEC of your soil results in winter rye and other plants taking over where ferns used to be all that would grow.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Bingo! I had bracken fern all over the place when I started with my acidic soil. Once I got pH under control bracken fern disappeared from my plots. It still thrives in my thinned pines.
Thanks,
Jack
Bowman
5 year old buck +
Well, I must be making some progress. Can not discount what has been said, but after reading some Ray Archuleta and mycorrizal fungi and communication, I wonder if something else may have been going on.
Ray: My favorite is wood chips as they provide plenty of carbon, are great food for earthworms, radically increase mycorrhizal fungi, and are very inexpensive if not free. But cover crops will do the same thing, and is easier to use on a farm.
"Carbon is the driving cycle," Ray explains. "It drives the phosphorus - and nitrogen cycle. It is the driving force because it is the one that feeds the soil organisms.
And that photosynthetic material leaks into the soil rhizosphere, and it feeds the biology and it drives the soil biology.
So, to me, carbon is the most limiting nutrients in our soils todays because we till it so much, we don't use covers, and we strip all the armor away. Most of our soils are carbon depleted, so carbon is the most critical."
As I said before, I have cut trees in that field and more to remove. I may cut the trees in the field instead of removing them directly and chip the tops in the field.
Still learning.
Ray: My favorite is wood chips as they provide plenty of carbon, are great food for earthworms, radically increase mycorrhizal fungi, and are very inexpensive if not free. But cover crops will do the same thing, and is easier to use on a farm.
"Carbon is the driving cycle," Ray explains. "It drives the phosphorus - and nitrogen cycle. It is the driving force because it is the one that feeds the soil organisms.
And that photosynthetic material leaks into the soil rhizosphere, and it feeds the biology and it drives the soil biology.
So, to me, carbon is the most limiting nutrients in our soils todays because we till it so much, we don't use covers, and we strip all the armor away. Most of our soils are carbon depleted, so carbon is the most critical."
As I said before, I have cut trees in that field and more to remove. I may cut the trees in the field instead of removing them directly and chip the tops in the field.
Still learning.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
New to this post and wow. I guess I need to take a step back and just be thankful. I don't have near the knowledge that most of the posters here have but try to constantly keep learning. I guess I must just be lucky I have good dirt and few weed problems.
I like the post above about what to do to encourage non planted "weed" species and await to hear more about that subject. I havent bothered to educate myself on "weed" identification. I do have a very good grasp for the species I planted VS. those I have not and what deer eat and what they dont. What they are called at this point to me is insignificant.
The past few years plotting have left me being perfectly ok with certain "weeds". One was three years ago in a non RR soybean planting and the other was in this years RR sugar beets. One of the prolific weeds I have growing never get touched by deer so I try to eliminate them via spot spraying or pulling. The other I have found to be a good companion (at least in the sugar beets). After my last spraying of the beets some weeds eventually started to grow and I didnt worry about it. Again I pulled the same one that the deer dont touch but left the other which is browsed heavily. To me it fits a good niche in the Sugar beets. It isn't dense enough to have any adverse effect of yield and it is feeding deer in a plot where the intended planting will not be touched by deer for what I would assume a good 1-2 more months. I am hoping that the "weeds" keep deer frequenting my beet plot long enough until the time when they "should" start eating the beets. I dont even know if they will yet.
One thing I have taken away from this years TNM plots is that (for me) rye is more of a "weed" the following year than the "weeds" that I didn't plant. When following rye with a non cereal TNM planting in the future I will be spraying the rye plot off before it starts to produce a head. My brassicas that I planted are thriving in the clover/chicory that I sprayed, broadcasted, and mowed. The brassicas that I planted in the mature non sprayed rye are all but choked out from the new rye growth. (just a learning curve for me)
I guess what I have to say to contribute to this thread and might get some negative feedback on is not all weeds are a bad thing (as others have tried to push) just as in some situations not all intended plantings are a good thing when not managed properly given the persons objectives.
I do wish I had more turkeys because the grasshoppers have had a toll on my forage yield in the brassica plot.
I like the post above about what to do to encourage non planted "weed" species and await to hear more about that subject. I havent bothered to educate myself on "weed" identification. I do have a very good grasp for the species I planted VS. those I have not and what deer eat and what they dont. What they are called at this point to me is insignificant.
The past few years plotting have left me being perfectly ok with certain "weeds". One was three years ago in a non RR soybean planting and the other was in this years RR sugar beets. One of the prolific weeds I have growing never get touched by deer so I try to eliminate them via spot spraying or pulling. The other I have found to be a good companion (at least in the sugar beets). After my last spraying of the beets some weeds eventually started to grow and I didnt worry about it. Again I pulled the same one that the deer dont touch but left the other which is browsed heavily. To me it fits a good niche in the Sugar beets. It isn't dense enough to have any adverse effect of yield and it is feeding deer in a plot where the intended planting will not be touched by deer for what I would assume a good 1-2 more months. I am hoping that the "weeds" keep deer frequenting my beet plot long enough until the time when they "should" start eating the beets. I dont even know if they will yet.
One thing I have taken away from this years TNM plots is that (for me) rye is more of a "weed" the following year than the "weeds" that I didn't plant. When following rye with a non cereal TNM planting in the future I will be spraying the rye plot off before it starts to produce a head. My brassicas that I planted are thriving in the clover/chicory that I sprayed, broadcasted, and mowed. The brassicas that I planted in the mature non sprayed rye are all but choked out from the new rye growth. (just a learning curve for me)
I guess what I have to say to contribute to this thread and might get some negative feedback on is not all weeds are a bad thing (as others have tried to push) just as in some situations not all intended plantings are a good thing when not managed properly given the persons objectives.
I do wish I had more turkeys because the grasshoppers have had a toll on my forage yield in the brassica plot.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
What Ray says here is exactly why I got defensive a while back on this forum regarding bio-char. Green = N Brown=carbon. This is where we have the advantage as food plotters where the intended (and sometimes non intended) plants are not being removed from the field. Even a dead decaying "weed" is if nothing else going to add carbon to the soil.
Like Jack is trying get across IF the "weed" is not reducing yield to the point where the deer are suffering and is not invasive why bother removing it? It WILL benefit our plots in one way or another.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I've gone the wood chip route as an experiment in reclaiming a logging deck. The downside is the significant short-term cost in N. That decaying wood ties up a lot of N for a while. Clover seems to be able to handle it since it fixes its own N. I've tried several things. One is just letting weeds take over during the summer. My durana doesn't seem to go dormant when shaded by weeds. When I mow in the fall just before the season, the clover really bounces back. Sometimes if the weeds are real bad, I'll spray with 1 qt/ac gly and then drill into the clover. I've used WR and GHR. This year I decided to try GHR and small burnett. The small burnett may not take if there is too much competition in the spring from the clover. We will see... I like the idea of growing my brown and green rather than adding it in the form of wood chips. There are lots of ways to make progress. I'm still learning myself and have a long way to go.
Thanks,
Jack