Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Yes, that's why I control the spread of ones I don't want around and promote the ones I do want. I actually have "weed food plots" but you won't find any dog fennel in them. Below is a picture of one of my weed plots.
An evolving approach to wildilfe management
- Thread starter yoderjac
- Start date
Yes, that's why I control the spread of ones I don't want around and promote the ones I do want. I actually have "weed food plots" but you won't find any dog fennel in them. Below is a picture of one of my weed plots.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Looks like jewelweed. Partial shade and moist ground I believe. Steve ??
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Yes indeed, you have your lesson up on JW. This is heavily browsed, but I now have so much of it they can't really dent its growth.
A little background - this is a ditch that you can't mow over. When I started managing my ground I saw a little JW, but there was so much other undesirable stuff there (especially small sycamores, etc) that the JW could not thrive. All I did was clear out the trash, and the JW took off like a rocket. After the initial work, I was spending 15 minutes a year to keep this going, but for the last two years I haven't had to do anything. But, as time goes on a small amount of maintenance will once again be necessary.
What could be better:
Highly desirable summer browse
Plenty of moisture - even in a drought
No seed to buy
No soil test
No fertilize or lime
Abundant fertility on land that has never had anything taken off of it
Small amount of maintenance
Useless ground turned into productive ground
A food species that is dominant (in this spot) over the common food plot invaders
Abundant food that can't be over-browsed
Welcome to the world of Native Hunter Ditch Plotting..........:D
Jack brings up a good point about what nature will replace the current weeds with if you get rid of them. I had a small section I intended to make a fall plot that was covered in lambsquarter, ragweed, some wild grape, and morning glory. While my deer will browse the ragweed, they leave the other stuff. So I sprayed it in early June before it could get out of hand. Killed it off nicely, just in time for the crabgrass seeds to germinate. So I had to spray again just before planting my fall stuff. If I had it to do again I'd let the first set of weeds grow until planting time. At least the deer would have gotten a little benefit.
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
Native Hunter…..I think you’re missing my bigger point. What I'm saying is that we don’t really know the purpose for a plant like dog fennel because we label it as bad and cast it off due to one criteria….deer don’t eat it….as if that’s the only link in the chain. Dog fennel is one of the most prolific pioneer species found in my area. If it is such a major player in the landscape, then why would we assume it to be useless? Wouldn’t that point to the contrary? What if it were found to be one the most dynamic nutrient recyclers in nature….would it be of any value then? Do we even know? I’m simply advocating that we step back and reassess what is “bad” and “useless” and use a broader criteria past just “do deer eat it?”. I think we have very little true understanding for most plants and their roles in the big picture of things.
Right now there’s a horrible outbreak of armyworms in my area. They’ve even had a special on the local news a couple days ago. Chemicals are flying off the shelf right now which will likely kill all the beneficial insects in the field including the army worms. So far I’ve only seen a small handful in my field…just one or two here and there. Why is that? Maybe I’m just lucky….it’s possible it’s just coincidence, but I’m assuming it’s because my field is full of predators. Why is it full of predators?....Because there is diverse habitat there to support the diversity of predators. A complete ecosystem. I think we often remove links from this chain with no understanding of the real effects. That’s the point I’m trying to get across….we don’t understand half the things that are occurring or how they affect other links in the chain.
Right now there’s a horrible outbreak of armyworms in my area. They’ve even had a special on the local news a couple days ago. Chemicals are flying off the shelf right now which will likely kill all the beneficial insects in the field including the army worms. So far I’ve only seen a small handful in my field…just one or two here and there. Why is that? Maybe I’m just lucky….it’s possible it’s just coincidence, but I’m assuming it’s because my field is full of predators. Why is it full of predators?....Because there is diverse habitat there to support the diversity of predators. A complete ecosystem. I think we often remove links from this chain with no understanding of the real effects. That’s the point I’m trying to get across….we don’t understand half the things that are occurring or how they affect other links in the chain.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
No, I do get the point. There are lots of plants that deer don't eat which are excellent bee plants - and without bees, we have a whole new set of problems that affect the big picture. That is just one point that we do understand. There are countless points that we don't fully understand.
I promote a lot of plants that I have never seen deer eat. Food is not a problem here at all. My point is that some plants can take over without some measure of control.
In an earlier post you referred to God, so to make my point I will refer to him as well.
In Chapter 1 of Genesis he told man to "subdue" the earth. So there are some things that do require subduing.
In Genesis 3 the earth was cursed with thorns and thistles and man was told that by the "...sweat of thy face..." he would eat.
Well it looks like God had a perfect understanding of habitat management before we ever thought about it.
Like I said before - not trying to start any argument, but just wanted to make my point. I think that point is very clear, and God does too.
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
I'm not arguing.....Are you arguing?... Who's arguing here?....Jack...Are you arguing? :D
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Sorry men, but I WILL NOT allow something like bracken fern or crabgrass(both native species) to "run it's course" as part of what it(the plant) or anyone else thinks it's "useful function" in the ecosystem is. I don't care what their "role" in the "big picture of things" is. I have seen first hand what the effects to large portions of an ecosystem can be when plants like these try to gain a foothold unchecked. NOT going to happen!
Some weeds are not and never will be "beneficial" no matter how hard we try to make them be or wish they were............
Some weeds are not and never will be "beneficial" no matter how hard we try to make them be or wish they were............
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Any time we manage habitat, we bend nature advantaging some and disadvantaging others. In general, I find that bending it slightly works very well both in the short and long term. Trying to bend it a lot results in many unforeseen problems. I think it is better to find smart ways to bend it a bit.
For those taking biblical guidance it is probably good to balance subduing the earth with stewardship.
Thanks,
Jack
For those taking biblical guidance it is probably good to balance subduing the earth with stewardship.
Thanks,
Jack
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
See the last sentence in Post #16..................;)
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I don't think there is any disagreement about being smart about how we do things. The legitimate debate is about what constitutes smart ways to do things. There will always be difference in specific implementation based on our individual locations and situations. I think most long-time habitat managers can look in the rear view mirror and say "I really screwed that up". There are also judgment calls we all make about how far to try to bend things. Just about all the folks posting to this thread are experienced managers. The differences between us seem small in philosophy but do vary in specific implementation as I said before.
My intent for starting this thread was for the new folks reading it to hear from guys like all of you on this subject. Most new folks think a "weed" free monoculture (or planted mix) is the definition of success and that "weeds" are bad. I hope to help them re-think and take a more thoughtful approach to what a weed really is, and whether or how they should react to it.
There is clearly a place for herbicides along with other weed control mechanisms, but it is not the place most new food plotters think it is.
Thanks,
jack
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
If killing dog fennel that is thick enough and tall enough in a clover plot to "shade clover from mid day sun" and then let "nature terminate it" (which means letting it go to seed) makes me bad at stewardship, then that is a fault I'm just going to have to live with and give account for. I will most certainly "subdue" it instead.
Maybe you and I both should stop persimmon grafting (which is performing a sex change operation). That seems to be "bending it a lot." :D
LOL, sorry - couldn't resist.......
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I'm not making the argument specifically for dog fennel. I tend to get a mix of weeds and dog fennel is just one of them. I'm also not siding one way or the other with CNCs suggestion of allowing it to terminate naturally. I don't think either using weed control techniques on dog fennel or letting it go to seed is necessarily bad stewardship. On the extremes, we have aggressive farming where short term profits trump all else which is essentially exploitation. On the other extreme, if we don't bend nature at all, we have and attempt at preservation verses conservation. To my way of thinking, stewardship is finding the balance where we use the resource but don't abuse it. Exactly where we draw that line is an individual decision and men of good conscience can disagree.
My point here is to suggest most food plotter error on the side thinking about weeds the same way farmers do. I'm not going to criticize where you draw the line.
As for the persimmons, you are absolutely right. I did consider the potential unforeseen impact risk. Changing the sex of a tree could have some kind of impact. I spent a lot of time talking to an old guy who grafted for wildlife for over 30 years. He had not seen and negative consequences but 30 years is a pretty short period when talking about trees. I think I've taken even more risk pushing it by experimenting with Jujube but time will tell. I know I did a lot of soil damage with a plow in my early years that I've only partially recovered from. As I said, we all have to figure out where to draw the line.
Thanks,
Jack
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
I think you’re getting too hung up on the narrow issue of dog fennel when my point was a much broader one. It's simply one example. There are a vast number of plants out there that we automatically cast aside without ever taking the time to understand their true place and purpose. If we never broaden our thinking past where we are now and ask questions, then we’ll never know. Just like I said earlier, a plant like dog fennel could be one of the best nutrient recycling cover crops out there….but we would never know if we just label it “bad” and tell everyone its useless and needs to go. That doesn’t mean I’m advocating for everyone to let their fields grow up with dog fennel….it just means to think a little deeper. It does have some purpose and serves some function or it wouldn't be here. What is that?
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Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
You don't know and I don't know, but until we find out, I will assume that it could be here to cause man to eat, "by the sweat of thy face."
If you get the answer be sure to let me know. If I'm wrong, it won't be difficult at all to get a good crop of it going in no time at all!:D
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Spoken like a true statesman Jack. I'm glad we agree.
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
Well now that were on the same page NH…let’s go ahead and talk about my dog fennel recommendations in the original story. Keep in mind that I’m not in Kentucky or Illinois or Minnesota, etc….I’m barely over 100 miles from the ocean and in the epitome of “The Deep South”…..August is probably our worst summer stress period. It’s scorching hot down here this time of year. Most people don’t have clover period right now unless it’s just in an ideal situation. Most of those ideal situations include some shade from the midday heat. It’s often plots in the woods where it gets shade from trees. If not the clover goes crispy and dormant because it just can’t take the intense, dry heat we get down here during late summer.
If someone comes on here in south Alabama in August and tells me that their clover is thriving and doing great….then I’m going to go with the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it approach”. Removing the shade from the clover provided by the dog fennel during the hottest part of our summer is just asking for the clover to go dormant. The very reason the guy likely has any clover at all right now in south Alabama, much less thriving clover, is probably directly attributed to the dog fennel providing shade. If it’s benefiting my clover by keeping it from going dormant during our worst stress period and therefore also keeping it available for browsing during this stress period….then why would I be mad if it reseeds and does it again next year?
If someone comes on here in south Alabama in August and tells me that their clover is thriving and doing great….then I’m going to go with the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it approach”. Removing the shade from the clover provided by the dog fennel during the hottest part of our summer is just asking for the clover to go dormant. The very reason the guy likely has any clover at all right now in south Alabama, much less thriving clover, is probably directly attributed to the dog fennel providing shade. If it’s benefiting my clover by keeping it from going dormant during our worst stress period and therefore also keeping it available for browsing during this stress period….then why would I be mad if it reseeds and does it again next year?
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
As I stated previously, I would do the same thing with a more desirable species. I specifically mentioned chicory, but there are other alternatives. I have no idea about your area, but there are surely some tall food plot species or more desirable (and/or less invasive) weeds in the "deep south" that can coexist with clover and give it some shade.
You bring up that everything was put here for a purpose. To that point I will agree. But you don't seem to get the point I made that the purpose of some things is to be a curse to man. Go back and read my points on that.
If someone is happy with growing dog fennel in a food plot - then more power to them. It's not my food plot, so I don't care.
Crimson n' Camo
5 year old buck +
Sure, there are different options. Someone could even take the approach of widely spacing out fruit trees in their plots to provide shade and recycle deep nutrients. Someone could go buy some milo or some EW and grow more bird food, OM, and shade to the clover…..or….or.... someone could just throw come clover seed in their fall mix and walk away, letting it and the other natural vegetation just do its thing until the following fall. Yes, you may have a few dollars in clover seed cost each fall but you have no maintenance costs for spraying, fuel, time, etc during the rest of the year. The guy in the dog fennel story hadn’t done anything since the prior fall and he had thriving clover in August.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
First let me say, I'm not a soils guy. I'm just learning and it is a very complex subject. So, this is only a question to consider. I think most would agree anything growing is better for soils than nothing growing. Erosion, wind and water, is the first thing that comes to mind but I'm sure there is more. I know cause I had some 10+ year old logging decks that wouldn't even grow weeds when we bought the place.
So, here is the question: What happens in terms of soil biology when clover goes dormant? How does that compare to the soil biology and nutrient cycle when clover is growing under the shade of another plant (be it chicory or dog fennel or some unnamed "weed")? Could the long term advantages of keeping clover growing in the summer along with some other shade plant outweigh the negatives of the shade plant if it is not an optimal choice? When I used to mix chicory with ladino, I would mow before the chicory would bolt.
The important thing here is not that either of you have the "right" answer, it is that you guys are both thinking deeply about the specifics of "weeds" and making what you believe is the best choice given your situation and judgment. I contrast that with the average new food plotter who thinks "That is not what I planted, kill it!".
I think my question is sort of a Dgallow question but I haven't seen him post over here and it would take me 2 weeks of study to get a reasonable understanding of his answer. :D
Thanks,
Jack
So, here is the question: What happens in terms of soil biology when clover goes dormant? How does that compare to the soil biology and nutrient cycle when clover is growing under the shade of another plant (be it chicory or dog fennel or some unnamed "weed")? Could the long term advantages of keeping clover growing in the summer along with some other shade plant outweigh the negatives of the shade plant if it is not an optimal choice? When I used to mix chicory with ladino, I would mow before the chicory would bolt.
The important thing here is not that either of you have the "right" answer, it is that you guys are both thinking deeply about the specifics of "weeds" and making what you believe is the best choice given your situation and judgment. I contrast that with the average new food plotter who thinks "That is not what I planted, kill it!".
I think my question is sort of a Dgallow question but I haven't seen him post over here and it would take me 2 weeks of study to get a reasonable understanding of his answer. :D
Thanks,
Jack