What is a "Managemernt Deer"?

[yoderjac]

A young gentleman, but experienced hunter, was guest on our place a few years back and shot a young buck with an odd rack. He tried to justify it calling it a "Management Buck".

What does a "Management Buck" mean to you in a free ranging deer herd context. I'd like to hear some opinions and how folks support those opinions.

It seems to me that "Management Buck" is simply an excuse to shot a buck that doesn't otherwise meet the harvest criteria.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[WTNUT]

I will bite. First, we are talking about what one is to me, which means on my properties. Second, no guest of mine is capable of knowing what a management buck is on my property. Therefore, I give them photos of bucks for which they have the green light and those for which they have a red light and tell them to not shoot anything else. Back to management bucks, for me they become management bucks when they hit five and have not ever developed antlers that I know are capable of being produced by our bucks by age 4 or age 5. If they don't have it by age five, I put them on the management list. It does not mean they are 8 points or 10 points or anything else. Generally, there is something about their racks that just doesn't meet the grade. Maybe it is 130 inch 8 point, maybe a 145 inch 10 point with short tines, maybe it is a 12 point with super short tines. It all just depends based upon what I know we are capable of producing. But, honestly very few management bucks go on my list.


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[4wanderingeyes]

Since I am not a bone hunter, I will offer a different view. To me a management deer would be in my case old smart does that have nothing better to do them look for me in stands then hiss at me. Those old does are smart, and when you have too many on your property, that are 3+ years old, they learn my habits as well. Last year I started, we took 4, this year there are 2 more.


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[WTNUT]

Since I am not a bone hunter, I will offer a different view. To me a management deer would be in my case old smart does that have nothing better to do them look for me in stands then hiss at me. Those old does are smart, and when you have too many on your property, that are 3+ years old, they learn my habits as well. Last year I started, we took 4, this year there are 2 more.


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I totally forgot the does but you are soooooo right more important than any buck harvested as management!


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[yoderjac]

I completely understand the concept of management does, it is bucks I'm questioning? I completely agree with WTNUT's approach. We target bucks by age, not rack size. Rack size is one important indicator of age. So at our place, anything 3 1/2 and older is a target deer. The place where one draws the line at protecting young bucks is a balance. If you draw it too high, no one ever shoots a buck except as a rarity. I see this more as trophy hunting. If you draw it too low, shooting a large buck is rare because few get old enough. We are trying to target the top 10% of our bucks by age. In some places the top 10% may come at 5 1/2 and in others, much less. For us, the top 10% is most likely 3 1/2 and older which is our target. If we find that letting young bucks walk changes our age structure enough, we may be able to raise that age line in the future.

I guess if one targets bucks by antler size alone rather than age, WTNUT's definition of a "Management Buck" is a reasonable one but I still have to ask what management goal is being achieved by harvesting a "Management Buck". Even with this definition, I'm not sure I see a management goal that is being achieved by removing this buck.

Other thoughts on Management Bucks?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Mortenson]

So what's your definition of management in general? Simply age structure?

Your quote of "I guess if one targets bucks by antler size alone rather than age, WTNUT's definition of a "Management Buck" is a reasonable one but I still have to ask what management goal is being achieved by harvesting a "Management Buck". Even with this definition, I'm not sure I see a management goal that is being achieved by removing this buck." -- It's pretty obvious in this day of deer hunting management that managers want big racks coupled with proper age. Guys want big racks. Myself included. If a big old mature buck has proven he won't grow a big rack, then many guys manage by wrapping their (or someone's) tag on him and making room for a "better" buck. What am I missing?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Jack, I am pretty sure in his mind, that buck won’t ever amount to anything, so taking it out, so it can’t pass on it’s genes and make more non perfect rack deer. To me, I don’t see genes being the problem. I know at least in my area, young bucks get their share of the action as well. The few “big” bucks can’t possibly handle all of the work on their own.

In my area a 2.5-3.5 is an average big buck.


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[4wanderingeyes]

This is considered a target buck in my area.

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[Buckly]

[QUOTE="yoderjac,

It seems to me that "Management Buck" is simply an excuse to shot a buck that doesn't otherwise meet the harvest criteria.

Thoughts?

That's the definition. In the case of your guest, it was his harvest criteria and not yours.

 

[John-W-WI]

I don't think this fits into the "management buck" category, but I green light older poor racked deer simply to "make space" for a good one. Nothing worse than a 4+ year old bully buck that will never amount to anything taking up space that a good one could have.

I guess with my logic above you could say I'm managing for antlers. To an extent that is true. But I have nothing against shooting a nanny doe to make it easier

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I am pretty sure in his mind, that buck won’t ever amount to anything, so taking it out, so it can’t pass on it’s genes and make more non perfect rack deer. To me, I don’t see genes being the problem. I know at least in my area, young bucks get their share of the action as well. The few “big” bucks can’t possibly handle all of the work on their own.

In my area a 2.5-3.5 is an average big buck.


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Yes, I think that is a very common fallacy argument. First, there has been a lot of modeling done on deer movement. They show that in a free ranging deer population, one would need to kill an extremely high percentage of bucks across a large area to even begin to affect the underlying genetics. Keep in mind that 50% of the underlying genetics comes from does and there is no outward physical indicator as to which does carry which genes related to antler size. On top of that new young bucks are always entering the population from outside as parental does force them to relocate.

The next part of that fallacy is that if age and food are prime and antlers are not large, the deer just don't have the underlying genetics. That may or may not be true. The reality is that genetics are affected by the environment and changes in which genes are switched on and off (Epigenetics) can take several generations. Antlers are a great example of epigenetics at work. Antlers are grown each year based on a genetic "program". The epigenetics can be disrupted in the antler bud due to injury. Deer can grow a very strange rack from such an antler bud. None of this changes the underlying genetics he passes on to his offspring.

You are absolutely right about young bucks getting their share of the action. The idea that only mature deer bread has been pretty well debunked by now.

I wonder if the concept of "Management Buck" didn't come from high fenced operations where there is no flow of genetics in or out of the local population. Or, if "Management Buck" comes from pay-for hunts where the things being managed are actually the hunters. Perhaps letting a client shoot an older buck when he doesn't encounter a "trophy" keeps him happy and increases the chances of him booking a future hunt. Perhaps the term has slid over into our realm of Quality Deer Management.

Or, perhaps folks have other ideas about "Management Bucks"...?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bueller]

This is considered a target buck in my area.

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That's not just a target buck in my area, that would be a very very good buck around these parts.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't think this fits into the "management buck" category, but I green light older poor racked deer simply to "make space" for a good one. Nothing worse than a 4+ year old bully buck that will never amount to anything taking up space that a good one could have.

I guess with my logic above you could say I'm managing for antlers. To an extent that is true. But I have nothing against shooting a nanny doe to make it easier

John,

Now that is an interesting concept. Since you are only talking about a couple deer when you harvest bucks (unlike does where you are removing many future deer for each harvest), I presume "making space" refers to the social structure not the habitat. I wonder if there have been any studies done looking at the social structure of bucks that show that, provided there is sufficient habitat, the number of bucks an area will hold is otherwise limited by social pressures or other factors.

If you apparent assumption is true, that would be achieving a management goal....

Thanks,

Jack

 

[John-W-WI]

I presume "making space" refers to the social structure not the habitat.

I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about (it's my own theory, not science). But there is no doubt in my mind that bucks will only put up with so much social pressure.

Does expect (almost need) company. Bucks are the opposite. A buck won't bed looking at another buck. Does are nervous if they can't see another deer when they bed.

Seems I've hijacked your thread a little... oops.

-John

 

[yoderjac]

That's not just a target buck in my area, that would be a very very good buck around these parts.

Good example of how different areas are different. From what I can see of that buck, it would likely be a 2 1/2 year old on my place and protected. That is why I like targeting the top 10% by age class. It allows enough young bucks to walk and still provides harvest opportunities. It works pretty well regardless of what area one is in.

Just a note for any newer folks reading this thread: Letting young bucks walk to improve age structure in the local herd only works when you have a sufficiently large area that you control or have likeminded neighbors that together cooperate setting harvest goals. You can let all the young bucks walk you want and if your neighbor is a brown and down guy, you won't accomplish much. That is not to say one can't have a personal policy of passing young bucks, simply don't expect the results you get when doing this at scale.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[WTNUT]

So what's your definition of management in general? Simply age structure?

Your quote of "I guess if one targets bucks by antler size alone rather than age, WTNUT's definition of a "Management Buck" is a reasonable one but I still have to ask what management goal is being achieved by harvesting a "Management Buck". Even with this definition, I'm not sure I see a management goal that is being achieved by removing this buck." -- It's pretty obvious in this day of deer hunting management that managers want big racks coupled with proper age. Guys want big racks. Myself included. If a big old mature buck has proven he won't grow a big rack, then many guys manage by wrapping their (or someone's) tag on him and making room for a "better" buck. What am I missing?

You raise a good question - what is the goal. Here are my thoughts based on experience. Any property of free ranging deer will only hold so many mature bucks IMHO. You can do things like creating more cover and the property will hold a few more, but there is always a limit. If that 5 year old has no chance of being a booner, eliminating him makes room for another mature buck. This is especially important if he is an aggressive and territorial buck. I can think of a few that we had early on that were 5 plus and would not score more than 140 with a very liberal tape, and they were real bullies.


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[yoderjac]

I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about (it's my own theory, not science). But there is no doubt in my mind that bucks will only put up with so much social pressure.

Does expect (almost need) company. Bucks are the opposite. A buck won't bed looking at another buck. Does are nervous if they can't see another deer when they bed.

Seems I've hijacked your thread a little... oops.

-John

Not at all. This is right on topic. Like you, this is not science, but anecdotal experience on my part, but it seems to me that at some points in the year I can have a number of bachelor groups on my place with quite a few deer in each. They do generally seem to group with age class but not always. As we get closer to the season and rut, they do become more solitary.

You do pose an interesting hypothesis. I've got a biologist buddy that often goes to the SEDSG conferences and keeps up with the study papers and such. I'll have to see if he has seen any research related to this subject when I get a chance.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

You raise a good question - what is the goal. Here are my thoughts based on experience. Any property of free ranging deer will only hold so many mature bucks IMHO. You can do things like creating more cover and the property will hold a few more, but there is always a limit. If that 5 year old has no chance of being a booner, eliminating him makes room for another mature buck. This is especially important if he is an aggressive and territorial buck. I can think of a few that we had early on that were 5 plus and would not score more than 140 with a very liberal tape, and they were real bullies.


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That is the same hypothesis that John is suggesting. It is an interesting idea.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[WTNUT]

I actually found John's after mine. I don't think you impact genetics at all by taking the buck. It simply gives a guy who would love to have the buck an opportunity to take him, and it opens up a spot for another mature buck. By way of example, 15 years ago when we were lucky to have one mature buck per 1,000 acres we had several nice mature bucks move in late season for food. We had more food than anyone around. Today, we still have more food than anyone late season, but I can't tell you the last time I had more than one mature buck move in late season. And, the last two years there have been zero. I really believe they show up and leave before I even see them or get them on camera because they just don't want the pressure from those who call our property home.


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[Bill]

I have neighbor in NJ that shoots management bucks every year. Usually nice 1.5 YO 6 pointers with nothing wrong with them. He just needs a reason so he finds one. He owns the land and pays the taxes so he can do as he likes. I just wish he would admit he wants to kill a deer regardless. I'd have more respect for the honesty.

For me this is a management buck. If he walks by I'm killing him. God I hope it's not tomorrow or I may be a lier.
He's 4 at least, I've been letting him walk for 2. I know he's agressive, I know he's never going to be a pope and young or booner, and I am in the camp with others here that believes a property can only hold so many mature bucks. Having him pound the snot out of a 2 or 3 year old with potential is counter productive for me. Steve Bartylla introduced me to that concept and it just makes sense.

Besides that I just don't like the Joker looking white patch around his eyes. :)