TNM or Tillage

[SwampCat]

I have about an acre and a half I want to plant with japanese millet. I am going to have one shot at it due to timing. I have tried a tnm in this very place two years ago with 99% failure. But, theoretically, during the hot summer, the mulching effect provided by the mowed vegetation should provide some benefit in moisture retention. What would you do, and why - on this sight?

 

[BobinCt]

If your big on soil structure and health, then TNM. If your not a big activist of it, I’d spray and do light tillage and try the TNM again next spring so if it does fail, it’s not effecting the hunting season.

 

[Tree Spud]

Twice TNM failed ... why chase that rabbit down the hole again?

I have never heard you state you have a moisture problem, you may have a sunlight problem.

Till and spread ... live dangerously ... you will at least have a comparison to TNM.

 

[g squared 23]

I have not had success with throw and mow millet. Nothing but a resounding and total failure in fact. Since I’ve gone to traditional tillage (literally a 3 point tiller), spread and drag, I have had nothing but success. Millet is a small seed and you’d think it would establish well with throw and mow, but that hasn’t been my experience. Maybe I didn’t establish enough of a thatch layer? Haven’t had an utter TNM failure with rye, wheat, brassicas or clover.

Jap millet this year mixed with some buckwheat. Great stand with minimal weeds. Should make good dove food.

If you have one shot, till it up. Or at least till half.


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[yoderjac]

I would take a step back and look at the big picture. If you are on highly fertile loam soil, it can take a lot of tillage abuse and remain productive, especially with high inputs of fertilizer. You can probably abuse your soil with deep tillage for your lifetime and still do fine. The more marginal your soils are and the more toward the heavy clay or light sand ends of the spectrum, the less ability the soil has to recover from tillage abuse.

With sandy soil, infiltration is so fast that nutrients move past root level quickly and moisture retention becomes difficult. At the heavy clay end, infiltration is so slow that water and nutrients tend to wash away. In both cases, the key is building OM from the top down.

Minimizing tillage is not a 100 yard dash. It is a marathon! For example, in my heavy clay, I had to remediate before I moved to no-till methods. My clay was so compressed on old logging decks from the removal of top soil, heavy equipment, and deep tillage that weeds would not even grow. My first step was to use a subsoiler to relieve the compression. Yes, a form of tillage was the beginning of no-till for me. Next, clay tends to crust on the surface. I had to min-till for several years. That is lifting the tiller so high it barely hits the top inch. The idea is to break the crust and chew up any vegetation so it decomposes. I would then broadcast and cultipack. Cultipacking was important in my case because, beyond pressing the seed in for improved germination, the cultipacker puts an uneven surface on the soil reducing run-off and crusting and allowing time for the water to infiltrate. Eventually I could T&M.

Building OM can take a decade or more depending on your situation. One key is the selection of crops. Don't focus on what you want to plant. Focus on what the soil needs. That is a balance of Carbon and Nitrogen, grasses and legumes. You can rotate or mix, but you need both.

T&M is one technique of no-till/min-till and it needs to be applied where/when it is suitable. No-till drills, min-till & cultipack, and even frost-seeding may be needed in some cases.

Depending on your soils and conditions, T&M may work fine the first year, or be a complete failure. The key is understanding the underlying concepts and making the long-term commitment to soil health. Then sticking to the concepts and adjusting the techniques as necessary.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

What Jack said.......Well put

 

[SwampCat]

Well, tilling it is. I dont have time to make a long term commitment. I need food for ducks this year - and every year. I am 65 yrs old and not that concerned about the long term. I dont do any deep tilling anyway. This is bottomland gumbo. My eight ft, 2000 lb disk probably wouldnt ever get over five inches deep. My tiller, less. I will be planting with a Woods seeder - maybe two to three inches of tillage.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, tilling it is. I dont have time to make a long term commitment. I need food for ducks this year - and every year. I am 65 yrs old and not that concerned about the long term. I dont do any deep tilling anyway. This is bottomland gumbo. My eight ft, 2000 lb disk probably wouldnt ever get over five inches deep. My tiller, less. I will be planting with a Woods seeder - maybe two to three inches of tillage.

Nothing wrong with that! Some weigh "now" more heavily and others favor the "long-term". I tend to lean toward a longer term view and I'm only a bit younger than you. While I don't have my own kids to pass it on to, others will follow.

In another thread, I told the story of an older partner that passed on without shooting a good 2 1/2 year old buck because of our groups focus on letting young bucks walk. In hind sight, I wish I had put more weight on the "now" for him.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[g squared 23]

Disclaimer: This is my first attempt at jap millet, my failures in the past were with proso. Jap seed is a bit smaller, so maybe it would be better for throw and mow?

I dunno, I’ll experiment in the future, but I’m happy with my results. You can see the velvetleaf in the low spots is my only issue. If I didn’t mix in buckwheat, I could use herbicide to control it. Also interesting is that the buckwheat is behind the millet as far as forming seed. This is to supplement a dove field of burnt wheat.


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[Mortenson]

Stating the obvious, bottomland gumbo is a lot safer to do tillage on than what a lot of the guys here have for soil. If you have a half inch of topsoil and crazy slopes, then I'd be looking at it from Yoder's perspective. That gumbo will probably be here for another thousand years, longer than us.

 

[SwampCat]

Stating the obvious, bottomland gumbo is a lot safer to do tillage on than what a lot of the guys here have for soil. If you have a half inch of topsoil and crazy slopes, then I'd be looking at it from Yoder's perspective. That gumbo will probably be here for another thousand years, longer than us.

plus, the soil is refreshed every year from spring flooding

 

[yoderjac]

Stating the obvious, bottomland gumbo is a lot safer to do tillage on than what a lot of the guys here have for soil. If you have a half inch of topsoil and crazy slopes, then I'd be looking at it from Yoder's perspective. That gumbo will probably be here for another thousand years, longer than us.

plus, the soil is refreshed every year from spring flooding

Exactly! Every place is different. Different soils and different conditions.

In general, guys who are on fertile soils often don't have to plant to feed deer at all as big Ag takes care of that, and native plants are more nutritious because of the underlying soil fertility. Perhaps it makes sense to plant to cover periods after harvest but there is a lot of help from soil fertility and native plants. If I was on ag soils, I would focus more on cover, harvest goals, and huntability rather than food.

Those of us on marginal soils benefit more from soil health consideration because we have less margin to work with.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Disclaimer: This is my first attempt at jap millet, my failures in the past were with proso. Jap seed is a bit smaller, so maybe it would be better for throw and mow?

I dunno, I’ll experiment in the future, but I’m happy with my results. You can see the velvetleaf in the low spots is my only issue. If I didn’t mix in buckwheat, I could use herbicide to control it. Also interesting is that the buckwheat is behind the millet as far as forming seed. This is to supplement a dove field of burnt wheat.


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I've noticed that seed size is only one factor. Some seeds just do better than others as surface broadcasting. Cultipacking makes a difference too in some cases. Some folks complain that a volunteer crop of buckwheat out-competes their fall plant if they use buckwheat in the spring. On my heavy clay soils, I get poor germination rates from simply surface broadcasting buckwheat yet it will grow in the back of my pickup. If I surface broadcast it and cultipack it, I get good germination rates.

On more thing about buckwheat. When I first started to reclaim old logging decks, after relieving compression, I would try to double crop buckwheat. I'm on the ratty edge of being far enough south to do that. I quickly noticed that my first buckwheat crop was always lethargic compared to my second one. The culprit was soil temperature. Buckwheat really likes warm soils. If the soil is cool and damp, buckwheat will germinate, but it does not perform as well. The optimal soil temp for buckwheat is 80 degrees (that is soil temp not air temp).

Last spring I planted a mix of buckwheat and Sunn Hemp at 10lbs of each per acre. The soil temps were plenty warm. The sunn hemp got about a foot high in the fields I planted like this. Much was nipped off by deer. The buckwheat dominated the field and got tall and went to seed but was pretty thin at 10 lbs/ac. This spring I planted the same field with buckwheat and sunn hemp and increased the rate to 20 lbs/ac of each. The sunn hemp dominated the field.

The buckwheat did not compete well. The big difference was a late cold spell. I planted after the cold spell, but the soil temps were not as warm as last year. The colder soil appears to have no negative impact on the sunn hemp, but a fairly significant one on the buckwheat.

Could this be the issue with the buckwheat in the millet this year?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[FarmerDan]

As long as we are thinking out loud, I think throw and mow takes a lot of management skill and experience. No matter how you do it, a seed has to have good contact with the soil - or with some other growing medium - to germinate. Throwing seed into biomass can be a crap shoot. Will the seed get to the soil? If not, will the biomass provide enough 'environment' to get the seed germinating and the root into the soil?

Discussing the environment criteria would take a couple pages. Jack mentioned seed size, but that's just one aspect. I think the seed coat and the condition of the seed coat has a lot to do with success or failure in TnM. Nature give a seed enough protection by way of a coat to keep it viable under the harshest of conditions. That can be a detriment to controlling germination on our terms.

Seeds like clover and alfalfa - and how many others can you think of - that are small and have a hard seed coat need to have that coat broken so the seed can absorb enough moisture to start germination. Ag seeds like that are scarified - nicked or cut - when processed. Look at your seed tag. You'll see a number for 'hard seed.' That's seed that's viable - and will germinate - but it's going to take some weather to break it down. I've seen clover seed for sale where the percentage of hard seed is up to 25%. At another extreme, a seed I like to talk about when on the subject is oats. I've never had much luck surface broadcasting them. Look at the coat - up close and personal. It's like it's wearing a bearskin rug.

There's no way that kind of seed is going to breakdown enough in a TnM situation to allow the absorption of enough water to germinate successfully. It needs to be in the soil. Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm reminded of this prayer.

God grant me the serenity to accept the seeds I cannot throw and mow, the courage to be able to identify and employ the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

 

[yoderjac]

As long as we are thinking out loud, I think throw and mow takes a lot of management skill and experience. No matter how you do it, a seed has to have good contact with the soil - or with some other growing medium - to germinate. Throwing seed into biomass can be a crap shoot. Will the seed get to the soil? If not, will the biomass provide enough 'environment' to get the seed germinating and the root into the soil?

Discussing the environment criteria would take a couple pages. Jack mentioned seed size, but that's just one aspect. I think the seed coat and the condition of the seed coat has a lot to do with success or failure in TMM. Nature give a seed enough protection by way of a coat to keep it viable under the harshest of conditions. That can be a detriment to controlling germination on our terms.

Seeds like clover and alfalfa - and how many others can you think of - that are small and have a hard seed coat need to have that coat broken so the seed can absorb enough moisture to start germination. Ag seeds like that are scarified - nicked or cut - when processed. Look at your seed tag. You'll see a number for 'hard seed.' That's seed that's viable - and will germinate - but it's going to take some weather to break it down. I've seen clover seed for sale where the percentage of hard seed is up to 25%. At another extreme, a seed I like to talk about when on the subject is oats. I've never had much luck surface broadcasting them. Look at the coat - up close and personal. It's like it's wearing a bearskin rug.

There's no way that kind of seed is going to breakdown enough in a TMM situation to allow the absorption of enough water to germinate successfully. It needs to be in the soil. Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm reminded of this prayer.

God grant me the serenity to accept the seeds I cannot throw and mow, the courage to be able to identify and employ the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

Spot on!

 

[SwampCat]

Exactly! Every place is different. Different soils and different conditions.

In general, guys who are on fertile soils often don't have to plant to feed deer at all as big Ag takes care of that, and native plants are more nutritious because of the underlying soil fertility. Perhaps it makes sense to plant to cover periods after harvest but there is a lot of help from soil fertility and native plants. If I was on ag soils, I would focus more on cover, harvest goals, and huntability rather than food.

Those of us on marginal soils benefit more from soil health consideration because we have less margin to work with.

Thanks,

Jack

i didnt specify, but the japanese millet is for ducks. Deer dont usually eat the millet. Also, no row crop ag within 8 miles of this place

 

[SwampCat]

As long as we are thinking out loud, I think throw and mow takes a lot of management skill and experience. No matter how you do it, a seed has to have good contact with the soil - or with some other growing medium - to germinate. Throwing seed into biomass can be a crap shoot. Will the seed get to the soil? If not, will the biomass provide enough 'environment' to get the seed germinating and the root into the soil?

Discussing the environment criteria would take a couple pages. Jack mentioned seed size, but that's just one aspect. I think the seed coat and the condition of the seed coat has a lot to do with success or failure in TnM. Nature give a seed enough protection by way of a coat to keep it viable under the harshest of conditions. That can be a detriment to controlling germination on our terms.

Seeds like clover and alfalfa - and how many others can you think of - that are small and have a hard seed coat need to have that coat broken so the seed can absorb enough moisture to start germination. Ag seeds like that are scarified - nicked or cut - when processed. Look at your seed tag. You'll see a number for 'hard seed.' That's seed that's viable - and will germinate - but it's going to take some weather to break it down. I've seen clover seed for sale where the percentage of hard seed is up to 25%. At another extreme, a seed I like to talk about when on the subject is oats. I've never had much luck surface broadcasting them. Look at the coat - up close and personal. It's like it's wearing a bearskin rug.

There's no way that kind of seed is going to breakdown enough in a TnM situation to allow the absorption of enough water to germinate successfully. It needs to be in the soil. Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm reminded of this prayer.

God grant me the serenity to accept the seeds I cannot throw and mow, the courage to be able to identify and employ the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

I agree - I am one for six on tnm. I think what I am going to do is tnm golden millet with a 75 day maturity and if ai dont see some germination in a week or ten days, come back conventional planting with some jap millet at 45 to to 60 day maturity

 

[yoderjac]

i didnt specify, but the japanese millet is for ducks. Deer dont usually eat the millet. Also, no row crop ag within 8 miles of this place

I assumed the millet was not for deer. My guess was doves. Waterfowl is well outside my competency level.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

As long as we are thinking out loud, I think throw and mow takes a lot of management skill and experience. No matter how you do it, a seed has to have good contact with the soil - or with some other growing medium - to germinate. Throwing seed into biomass can be a crap shoot. Will the seed get to the soil? If not, will the biomass provide enough 'environment' to get the seed germinating and the root into the soil?

Discussing the environment criteria would take a couple pages. Jack mentioned seed size, but that's just one aspect. I think the seed coat and the condition of the seed coat has a lot to do with success or failure in TnM. Nature give a seed enough protection by way of a coat to keep it viable under the harshest of conditions. That can be a detriment to controlling germination on our terms.

Seeds like clover and alfalfa - and how many others can you think of - that are small and have a hard seed coat need to have that coat broken so the seed can absorb enough moisture to start germination. Ag seeds like that are scarified - nicked or cut - when processed. Look at your seed tag. You'll see a number for 'hard seed.' That's seed that's viable - and will germinate - but it's going to take some weather to break it down. I've seen clover seed for sale where the percentage of hard seed is up to 25%. At another extreme, a seed I like to talk about when on the subject is oats. I've never had much luck surface broadcasting them. Look at the coat - up close and personal. It's like it's wearing a bearskin rug.

There's no way that kind of seed is going to breakdown enough in a TnM situation to allow the absorption of enough water to germinate successfully. It needs to be in the soil. Yes, there are exceptions, but I'm reminded of this prayer.

God grant me the serenity to accept the seeds I cannot throw and mow, the courage to be able to identify and employ the ones I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

This is why I like planting complex mixes. I have turnips and radishes in one of my plots that I didn’t plant this spring nor are they the result of brassica plants that survived winter and went to seed. I’m sure there are other plants in there as well if I went through it with a fine tooth comb.


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[yoderjac]

This is why I like planting complex mixes. I have turnips and radishes in one of my plots that I didn’t plant this spring nor are they the result of brassica plants that survived winter and went to seed. I’m sure there are other plants in there as well if I went through it with a fine tooth comb.


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I seem to have a seed density problem (too many plants per sqft) if I let brassica bolt. However, that is likely because I plant the following spring. Perhaps if you don't plant, most of the seed doesn't germinate so you get good plants rather than multiple stunted plants too close together. I'll have to keep this in mind in years when I rest fields.