I tried TnM and the results were just so-so

[eclipseman]

I wanted to give my very short experience with throw n mow (roll) technique that did not go very well for me. I will start by saying this was the first time I tried it and it very well could have been something I did wrong. Anyways, here we go. I have a 2 acre food plot which I split in half for oats and brassica last year. I rotated the sides this year and instead of oats I went with clover and on the original oats side I was going to do brassica. Ealier this spring I read about throw and mow and decided I would do an experiment so I divided the dead oat field in half. One quarter acre I would do regular chemical spray, fertilize, till and then broadcast my brassica like last year and the other side I would grow buckwheat and tnm with brassica. Now keep in mind the regular tilling part would not happen until august because that is when I would normally plant brassica so on that side I just let weeds grow and then started the chemical treatment mid August. For the TnM side, I started end of May by spraying what little weeds there were, remember this was a dead oat field from the previous fall and at this point weeds really have not started growing so it was mostly bare dirt. I did a soil test, added in a little lime and fertilizer which the test called for, and lightly disked buckwheat in. The buckwheat grew spectacularly and made a nice canopy with little to no weeds underneath. At the end of August, I went out and did another soil test. ph was fine 6.9, and the test called for just a touch of fertilizer (mainly nitrogen). I spread the fertilizer and brassica seed into the standing buckwheat and rolled part of it and mowed part the day before a rain. I also did the other part of the field that same weekend which I was doing the non-TnM method so both plots were started at the same time. Now we are 4 weeks in and the non-TnM side looks fantastic but the TnM side is pretty bad. I got a small amount of volunteer buckwheat back which I figured would happen but the bad part is only about 1/3 of the brassica came up with a bunch of grass and other weeds. For me, this is not ideal. So...thoughts? I am welcoming any and all comments.

 

[Maddog3355]

Have you got any rain since you planted? I’ve never tnm. Brassicas but I’ve never had a failure yet with my wheat,bob oats, rye and Austrian winter pea mixture. TNM is slower about coming up than conventional planting.

 

[eclipseman]

Have you got any rain since you planted? I’ve never tnm. Brassicas but I’ve never had a failure yet with my wheat,bob oats, rye and Austrian winter pea mixture. TNM is slower about coming up than conventional planting.

Yes, the first two weeks were plenty of rain. The last two weeks have been dryer but still an occasional rain. I’m NY as an FYI.

 

[Bill]

No suggestions or critiques, but kinda did a similar experiment this year. Planted 1 acre into a disked clean field. 1 acre TnM into sprayed buckwheat and 2 acres into sprayed weeds/dead rye. I haven't been back to see the results but time will tell. I can see a very small corner of the disked plot on camera and it's growing great.

I had 2 TnM brassica plots Lat year that didn't grow but we got minimal rain. That's not the case this year so it should be interesting to compare.

I've always had good luck with rye and clover. This year the buckwheat was TnM and it came up well just didn't get tall because it was so dry.

 

[Someday isle]

I’ll chime in too. My experience is similar with weather being such a powerful variable. I disced and planted buckwheat too. The first crop was great. The second crop was throw and mow but we just didn’t get any rain. The second crop was a complete failure in all three areas i planted. One area the weeds took over and the other two were just bare dirt. But we had no real rain and it was brutally hot.

This week I had an equipment failure so about half my plots got disced and cultipacked. The others didn’t. We got lots of rain two days after planting. I should be getting germination this weekend. I’m interested to see what happens. I’ll post results here.

My take - with small plots and small sample sizes I think it’s always got to be a crap shoot. I like the idea of throw n mow in principal but it’s hard to have confidence in the concept when I just don’t have enough experience to bank on. And my disced and cultipacked plots just seem like they have a better chance at success. And a nice firm seedbed looks pretty too :)

 

[scott44]

When did you plant the T n M ? I've noticed that TnM/roll takes longer to establish than tilled. I have thought that all my TnM/rolled plot have been failures but in time the turned out good. I have really only had one failed TnM/rolled plot and it was last year I broadcast brassicas into rye and clover and rolled it with no spraying, I ended up with a really nice, tall clover plot so it wasn't a total failure just no winter food.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I think soil type may be playing a role in some of this. I have really loose sandy soil and I’ve yet to have a failure on fall plots. They’ve all done outstanding. I think the looseness of my soil helps. I’ve had good success with many of the summer things I’ve experimented with. I repeat the same process every time with the same results. When I hear about people having failures while others having great success like being described….it really leaves me scratching my head why. One thing I’ll say though….be careful about comparing a 1 year side by side comparison…..TnM and no-till in general are meant to be long term soil improving techniques. Things change over time as you increase the organic matter content of the topsoil and increase microbial life…..things like mycorrhizal fungi begin to help germination and seedling growth….…..etc…

 

[eclipseman]

When did you plant the T n M ? I've noticed that TnM/roll takes longer to establish than tilled. I have thought that all my TnM/rolled plot have been failures but in time the turned out good. I have really only had one failed TnM/rolled plot and it was last year I broadcast brassicas into rye and clover and rolled it with no spraying, I ended up with a really nice, tall clover plot so it wasn't a total failure just no winter food.

I did the TnM the same time I started my regular tillage plot (august 1st) so it has been about 4 weeks. Both have obviously had equal rain because they are literally side by side. The TnM side brassicas that actually grew are the same size as the non-TnM side so it is not that they are behind in growth but rather, many of the brassicas on the TnM side simply did not grow at all. My soil is actually pretty decent soil as it has been untouched soil for at least the last 10 years so the organic matter is pretty decent which is why maybe why the regular tillage type farming has been so good. Maybe what I will do is simply rotate between TnM and regular tillage type farming to help prevent my soil from going downhill in the quality department.

 

[eclipseman]

I think soil type may be playing a role in some of this. I have really loose sandy soil and I’ve yet to have a failure on fall plots. They’ve all done outstanding. I think the looseness of my soil helps. I’ve had good success with many of the summer things I’ve experimented with. I repeat the same process every time with the same results. When I hear about people having failures while others having great success like being described….it really leaves me scratching my head why. One thing I’ll say though….be careful about comparing a 1 year side by side comparison…..TnM and no-till in general are meant to be long term soil improving techniques. Things change over time as you increase the organic matter content of the topsoil and increase microbial life…..things like mycorrhizal fungi begin to help germination and seedling growth….…..etc…

my soil type is more sandy than clay but is not super sandy. read my above comments about my soil quality.

 

[eclipseman]

To Everyone who has posted...wow I must have confused everyone. I just re-read my post and I was saying things like "at the end of September" It is NOT even September yet LMAO. I have updated the post with August as this TnM test is actually happening right now and not last year. Sorry for the extreme confusion.

 

[jsasker007]

Fewer plants isn't always a bad thing. Give the tnm plot a little more time(possible not all seeds made it to the ground because of other vegetation) those seeds may still sprout but just later. Less plants can equal bigger and healthier plants due to lack of competition(most food plotters put down too much seed and plots are over crowded). After a good rain those seeds that are "hung up on vegetation" may finally get some ground contact and germinate.jmho

 

[Livesintrees]

I think regardless of the method rain is everything. I’ve never had a single problem with getting a brassica to grow. I think they’d grow on top of concrete

 

[scott44]

I planted my brassicas on 7/3 and here is a pic on 8/3 so a month of growth and the last pic is this last week, spread urea on them 8/20. Maybe up your seeding rate on the TnM.

 

[SwampCat]

No tnm expert here - still experimenting - but so many uncontrollable variables. Is the weed cover too thick leaving too much mulch. Is it too thin and not enough to cover the seed. Was seed to soil contact good enough. Did the seed lay on the ground too long and the birds and the hogs ate it.

If I only had one or two food plots - I would plant conventional - if I had equipment - to up the odds of success. I plant about fifteen plots and I am trying to cut down on time spent and tnm seems likely to do that - but I still only use it where I can withstand failure.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Conventional methods don’t necessarily increase your odds of success though in all situations. Where I’m located in south Alabama….most everything around me is really sandy soil. Conventional tillage methods on really sandy soil causes some serious soil degradation. I have WAY better plots now that I used to have. I used to have zero holding capacity in my soil….Ca levels were never more than 600-800 lbs/ac……Now they’re over 4,000 lbs/ac…..K levels hold for months without any additional inputs.....etc.

I get to travel around to dozens and dozens of properties in my area each year with my blood tracking dogs and I see the same thing repeated time after time…..a bunch of tilled to death fields of sand that are very unproductive and require lots of fert and rain for any kind of success. Most look pretty rough…..

 

[eclipseman]

Conventional methods don’t necessarily increase your odds of success though in all situations. Where I’m located in south Alabama….most everything around me is really sandy soil. Conventional tillage methods on really sandy soil causes some serious soil degradation. I have WAY better plots now that I used to have. I used to have zero holding capacity in my soil….Ca levels were never more than 600-800 lbs/ac……Now they’re over 4,000 lbs/ac…..K levels hold for months without any additional inputs.....etc.

I get to travel around to dozens and dozens of properties in my area each year with my blood tracking dogs and I see the same thing repeated time after time…..a bunch of tilled to death fields of sand that are very unproductive and require lots of fert and rain for any kind of success. Most look pretty rough…..

My soil seems to be pretty decent so maybe that is the issue and why the Normal tillage portion is growing better than the TnM portion. I want to keep it as nice soil so maybe I’ll do rotation of crops (move away from monoculture) and do TnM every other year just to keep the soil in good shape with very light tilling in between.

 

[SwampCat]

Not a grain of sand in my ground - wish I had some. I am actually moving towards a modified tnm if I can get everything in place. I am using my woods seeder with a less aggressive disk angle, and planting directly into my durana plots. It does disturb the soil an inch or two deep in strips of disturbance three or four inches wide by three or four inches of undisturbed ground. It seems to invigorate the durana, and supply good seed to soil contact with the ww when I plant, with not a lot of soil disturbance or loss.

 

[Jeff23]

Eclipseman, did you use the same seeding rates for both methods? I am no expert and TnM, but I have come up with a couple opinions: conditions are more important/ can be less forgiving, seeding rate must be somewhat higher (I go at least 50% above conventional) and it seems like readily visual results can be more slow in coming. I just seeded an acre today, so I will try to pay attention to some details so I can share applicable results.

 

[yoderjac]

I think soil type may be playing a role in some of this. I have really loose sandy soil and I’ve yet to have a failure on fall plots. They’ve all done outstanding. I think the looseness of my soil helps. I’ve had good success with many of the summer things I’ve experimented with. I repeat the same process every time with the same results. When I hear about people having failures while others having great success like being described….it really leaves me scratching my head why. One thing I’ll say though….be careful about comparing a 1 year side by side comparison…..TnM and no-till in general are meant to be long term soil improving techniques. Things change over time as you increase the organic matter content of the topsoil and increase microbial life…..things like mycorrhizal fungi begin to help germination and seedling growth….…..etc…

You are right! Soil plays a role. I've got heavy clay. Some crops surface broadcast fairly well for me like WR and PTT but when I started, germination rates were not great. Because of all the tillage I had done over the years, my clay tended for form a crust on the surface. That crust had some negative consequences. Surface broadcast crops had a hard time pushing their roots through the crust. Drilled crops like soybeans had a hard time emerging through the crust.

I had very good success with what I call min-till. Before I surface broadcast or till, I would run my tiller very shallow over the field. I would actually lift it with the 3-pt hitch until the tines were only touching the top inch or less of soil. This chewed up vegetation on the surface, disrupted some weeds, and broke the clay crust. I would then either surface broadcast my cover crop (fall) or no-till drill beans with a light mix of corn (spring). I found this gave me much better results.

Well, things are changing and this is a test year! I've been doing this for enough years than my OM should be increasing. This seems to be helping with the crusting issue. As it turns out, my big 6' tiller gave up the ghost a couple years ago and I've been getting by using my 4' JD tiller with my partner's little Ford 1300. Well, his tractor just broke down and won't be fixed until it is too late for the fall plant.

So, this is my full Throw and Mow year. I just finished planting 4 acres this way. We will se how the results compare!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

My soil seems to be pretty decent so maybe that is the issue and why the Normal tillage portion is growing better than the TnM portion. I want to keep it as nice soil so maybe I’ll do rotation of crops (move away from monoculture) and do TnM every other year just to keep the soil in good shape with very light tilling in between.

That is not uncommon. I've found tillage gives me much better short-term results than throw and mow or min-till. Tillage is a high-input technique that works very well for a number of years. The better your soil, the more it can be exploited for good results. No-till techniques are focused on long-term soil health with good production with much lower inputs. It takes advantage of the natural nutrient cycling capacity of the soil.

Thanks,

Jack