The Woods ... mistakes I'v made

[OakSeeds]

Mr. Fishman ... you are astute in your observations. Actually, the acorns on all 3 plates have SWO parentage. Acorns on the plates represent SWO acorns, Regal Prince acorns and Kindred Spirit acorns. SWOs are on the plate on the right and KS acorns are on the plate on the left in post #194. The acorns on the plates in post 196 are from a Regal Prince white oak tree. Both the KS hybrid white oak tree and RP hybrid white oak tree is a cross between a SWO and English Oak (fastigiate / columnar shape). The acorns of all 3 varieties look very similar (some might say identical). Even though you saw acorns and leaves (2 of 3 identifying characteristics), the trees shape - along with the acorn/leaf information - would make identification most accurate. The first photo shows the KS tree while the second phot show the RP tree. What do we learn from this exercise; it's often difficult to id an oak tree accurately from an acorn or leaf alone since there is frequently lots of variation. Fall is the best time to see all 3 characteristics (leaf,acorn, tree size-structure).
I believe this exercise reveals a potentially important aspect of SWO trees (including and especially hybrids). When I harvested the SWO acorns off the tree in late September, I would guess 30-40% of the tree's acorns had dropped and there were virtually no green acorns on the tree. It's one of my better SWO trees for dropping into Oct. Acorns picked off the KS and RP trees - as recently as today show only 15-20% of the acorns had fallen and many on the tree were still green. It is interesting that these hybrids might be dropping later than SWOs, or the parent English Oak (the EOs in my area drop in early Sept.)

 

[Teeder]

Really like the look of that RP tree.

The local swo's drop much earlier than my EO's. Would like to get a sword variety that drops later. Maybe RP is the answer?

 

[Teeder]

Any idea where the drop time for schuette's falls in the mix? I don't have any producing yet.

 

[OakSeeds]

The fellow who gathers acorns for me visited my favorite bur oak tree today and said he thought perhaps 40-50% of the acorns had dropped. If some hold for another 10-12 days, there may even be a few available in early November. Since it produces large acorns and drops a little later than most burs in my area, you can see why it is my favorite.

 

[Teeder]

Holy cow! Those are a lot bigger than my local burs!

 

[OakSeeds]

Another mistake; I left 20 swo acorns in water in a covered plastic container on a bench in the maintenance shed for 9-12 days. I decided to conduct a little experiment to see if I could gain useful info for folks on this site. When I discovered the super-saturated acorns I noticed 3 had sprouted even though they were immersed in water. I decided to see if I could get any more of the acorns to germinate. Placed them in wet paper towels in a plastic container with lid (cake icing product) and placed them on floor in front of heat register in family room. In 2 days with an optimum germination environment, I went from 3 acorns with radicals to 6 with radicals (30%). After another 72 hours, I am up to 10 (50%) of the 20 acorns with radicals. I will continue to check them every 2-3 days until no additional acorns germinate. Lesson learned: really saturated acorns can/will germinate if you can get enough heat to them to avoid the onset of mold or rot. Don't know if placing them in fridge for stratification would eliminate the threat of rot .... if cold enough (not freezing) the moisture should evaporate more quickly.

 

[OakSeeds]

I opened the container with 20 acorns that had been in water for over a week and found that 15 out of 20 had extended radicals or white tips showing very early germination. 75 % germination rate is excellent given the circumstances. Some folks might be interested in my little "cooker system" that will germinate a high percentage of acorns in a relatively short period of time. I use small plastic containers (frosting or Folgers coffee ... essential to have the lid) and place 10 acorns wrapped in saturated paper towels on the bottom of the frosting container (25+ acorns with larger folgers container), and a second layer of 10 acorns wrapped in saturated paper towels on the top of the group in the bottom of the frosting container. In the spring, you place the container a couple of feet away from a window that receives full sun all day. When it's cold - like now - I place the container in front of a heat register. Check rthe container every 24-36 hours to ensure the paper towels remain wet. Hopefully, the attached photos reveal how simple and effortlessly clean it is.

 

[OakSeeds]

On a recent thread extolling the virtues of root maker systems for growing oak seedlings, a poster suggested I might "chime-in" and offer a perspective. My response would deal with two critical issues; first, I NEVER have/will attempt to grow an oak/chestnut tree from an acorn in a container ABOVE ground. It is super labor intensive because of one simple aspect .... regulating the minimal - yet alone optimal - level of hydration for the young seedlings. The smaller the container, the greater the difficulty! If I recall correctly, a lot of yellow/curly/dry-or-dead leaf questions pertaining to container-grown seedlings have been asked on this site. A root-maker expresss 18 is 3.12 x 3.12 at the top and necks down twice to include 25 cubic inches of growing space. The care that requires - especially the need for protection against heat that dries out roots - for just the first 8-10 weeks of growth is more than I am willing to provide. I suspect it also leads to a propensity to water in excess of what the seedling requires. Then, if you follow the advice of some of the most vocal proponents, you are advised to upsize the growing container twice over a two-year period before planting them in final locations. I grow a few container trees each year to gift out to friends and others; however, I simply cut the top (6-7 inch opening) and bottom three inches off the 4 corners of a gallon plastic milk jug, dig a trench deep enough to accomodate the cartons, fill each carton with soil, press an acorn flat/horizinaly into the soil, water the acorn, fill the top two inches with straw, and provide protection. Mother nature (rain) and mother earth (insulation) will allow me to minimize the care - water occasionally - required to produce a seedling with an adequate root system in 18-24 months. When I gift one of these container trees to anyone, I tell them planting instructions including the value of a water-pipe, protection and the elimination of competition.

For my own plantings, I am a strong proponent of direct seeding of acorns/chestnuts, which is the best way to avoid the problems of container raised trees. What follows is one of the best/clearest arguments for direct seeding you will read.


Advantages of Direct Seeding and Importance of the Taproot
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
Ronald W. Motz
November 5, 1995

Excerpt from: Proceedings of a Symposium on Oak Woodlands: Ecology, Management, and Urban Interface Issues March 19-22, 1996, San Luis Obispo, California USDA Forest Service Pacific Southwest Research Station PSW-GTR-160

Ron says ..... "Although the most common method of planting oaks is from containerized seedlings, direct seeding of acorns into the landscape produces clearly superior trees. Most important, the taproot grows at its natural rate without any premature termination or damage. The taproot is able to penetrate deeply to the water source while also providing a firm anchor to the seedling and food storage to help ensure survival.

The taproot grows from the end (apical meristem), and once it is exposed to air or damaged, as is inevitable in traditional containers, it never regenerates (although multiple replacement roots usually form at the point of injury.) A seedling without a taproot will have less chance of survival without supplemental irrigation since it will never develop the root system nature intends for it to successfully adapt to the planting site."

 

[TreeDaddy]

Thanks for the reference..... and an addition to the timeless debate thread

bill

 

[b116757]

Good info for sure absolutely correct in the level dedication required to watering to even grow them in a RM18 in my experience. I like to putter around with them on my patio as a hobby. For my actual deer orchard planting this spring I direct seeded weed matted and tubed them.

 

[Telemark]

On a recent thread extolling the virtues of root maker systems for growing oak seedlings, a poster suggested I might "chime-in" and offer a perspective. My response would deal with two critical issues; first, I NEVER have/will attempt to grow an oak/chestnut tree from an acorn in a container ABOVE ground. It is super labor intensive because of one simple aspect .... regulating the minimal - yet alone optimal - level of hydration for the young seedlings. The smaller the container, the greater the difficulty! If I recall correctly, a lot of yellow/curly/dry-or-dead leaf questions pertaining to container-grown seedlings have been asked on this site. A root-maker expresss 18 is 3.12 x 3.12 at the top and necks down twice to include 25 cubic inches of growing space. The care that requires - especially the need for protection against heat that dries out roots - for just the first 8-10 weeks of growth is more than I am willing to provide. I suspect it also leads to a propensity to water in excess of what the seedling requires. Then, if you follow the advice of some of the most vocal proponents, you are advised to upsize the growing container twice over a two-year period before planting them in final locations. I grow a few container trees each year to gift out to friends and others; however, I simply cut the top (6-7 inch opening) and bottom three inches off the 4 corners of a gallon plastic milk jug, dig a trench deep enough to accomodate the cartons, fill each carton with soil, press an acorn flat/horizinaly into the soil, water the acorn, fill the top two inches with straw, and provide protection. Mother nature (rain) and mother earth (insulation) will allow me to minimize the care - water occasionally - required to produce a seedling with an adequate root system in 18-24 months. When I gift one of these container trees to anyone, I tell them planting instructions including the value of a water-pipe, protection and the elimination of competition.

For my own plantings, I am a strong proponent of direct seeding of acorns/chestnuts, which is the best way to avoid the problems of container raised trees. What follows is one of the best/clearest arguments for direct seeding you will read.


Advantages of Direct Seeding and Importance of the Taproot
Acorn Collection, Storage, Sorting, and Planting for the Establishment of Native Oaks Without Supplemental Irrigation
Ronald W. Motz
November 5, 1995

Excerpt from: Proceedings of a Symposium on Oak Woodlands: Ecology, Management, and Urban Interface Issues March 19-22, 1996, San Luis Obispo, California USDA Forest Service Pacific Southwest Research Station PSW-GTR-160

Ron says ..... "Although the most common method of planting oaks is from containerized seedlings, direct seeding of acorns into the landscape produces clearly superior trees. Most important, the taproot grows at its natural rate without any premature termination or damage. The taproot is able to penetrate deeply to the water source while also providing a firm anchor to the seedling and food storage to help ensure survival.

The taproot grows from the end (apical meristem), and once it is exposed to air or damaged, as is inevitable in traditional containers, it never regenerates (although multiple replacement roots usually form at the point of injury.) A seedling without a taproot will have less chance of survival without supplemental irrigation since it will never develop the root system nature intends for it to successfully adapt to the planting site."

Is that theoretical, or is there a study behind it?

 

[TreeDaddy]

Good info for sure absolutely correct in the level dedication required to watering to even grow them in a RM18 in my experience. I like to putter around with them on my patio as a hobby. For my actual deer orchard planting this spring I direct seeded weed matted and tubed them.

Same

Baby Trees in containers in my backyard are as much summer as baseball,hotdogs,barbeque, and Coors Lite

bill

 

[OakSeeds]

An example of one of my tree nurseries over the years, and some results.

P.S. Why do pictures from earlier threads get included with those in this post? Any help appreciated.

 

[OakSeeds]

Is that theoretical, or is there a study behind it?

Great question; I suspect it represents what foresters, arborists, and nurserymen (to a lesser degree) called commonly accepted knowledge at that time (1996). The USDA - through its regional forestry research stations - has accumulated a plethora of research reports about oak trees. Over 50 + years ago, T. E. Russell - in another Oak Symposium Proceedings (1971) - contributed to this common core of knowledge by concluding ....
"Upland oaks can be established by seeding or planting, but additional experience is needed before these methods become economical alternatives to natural regeneration. Recently forested sites are generally more favorable than abandoned fields. Lack of repellents to protect acorns from animals severely limits direct seeding, but oaks can be planted readily by conventional methods and will survive well on suitable sites. They require ample sunlight for best growth, and competing vegetation must be controlled."
Russell easily nailed 2/3 of the commonly accepted beliefs about the most important factors contributing to the survival and vigorous growth - of young oaks ----- sufficient sunlight, a lack of competition and sufficient moisture. I know, I know ... that's just common sense; however, I'm not sure many persons would appreciate the overall importance of eliminating competition. Researchers at Kansas State conducted research studies that demonstrated that competition (grass or under story vegetation) could retard the growth of small oak seedlings by up to 70% annually. Now, let's consider a very recent research effort that pertains to one aspect of oak acorns. It appears size does matter; at least with regard to oak acorns.
Wenhui Shi, Pedro Villar-Salvador, Guolei Li & Xiaoxu Jiang (2019) published a research report that concluded that "Acorn size is more important than nursery fertilization for outplanting performance of Quercus variabilis container seedlings>"
They noted... "The use of small acorns will result in the production of a higher proportion of small seedlings containing low nutrient levels and having poor outplanting performance in oak container seedlings. Nursery fertilization partially offsets the negative effect of small acorns on seedling attributes in the nursery but not on outplanting performance."

In an effort to tie this ACORN-SIZE-KNOWlLEDGE to our efforts at habitat management via oak tree propagation, I'll start another post with a framework of important questions where applied research might be of value.

First; however, I'll provide a little more research support for telemark's question.

 

[OakSeeds]

Telemark ... some more research - supporting the 1996 conclusion favoring direct seeding .....

Container Stock Versus Direct Seeding for Woody Species in Restoration Sites©

Truman P. Young and Richard Y. Evans Department of Environmental Horticulture, University of California, Davis, CA 95616 USA
McCreary has been examining the success of blue oaks (Quercus douglasii) planted using different stock and different maintenance. Although 1st year survival
was greater in container stock than from acorns, thereafter, survivorship was similar and growth rates were significantly higher in oaks planted as acorns (Fig.
2b). These results come from separate experiments not designed to test these differences directly, but there are no reasons to believe that they are not real.

" Marshall and Gilman (1997) examined the roots of live oak (Q. virginiana) that had been either field-grown or container-grown prior to transplantation. They also
found the field-grown stock had greater root mass at both shallow (0 to 25 cm) and deep (75 to 100cm) horizons, but not at intermediate depths. The roots of
container-grown stock, but not field-grown stock, suffered in unirrigated plots. In a similar study, Gilman and Beeson (1996) examined young laurel oaks (Q.
laurifolia) and East Palatka holly (Ilex ✕attenuata) that had been either field grown or container grown prior to transplantation. For both species, the fieldgrown
plants had greater height, above- and below-ground biomass, and greater rooting depth than container-grown plants."
"Prompted partly by these results, we have begun a study of factors affecting the success of valley oak seedlings (Q. lobata) in the field (Young and Evans, in prep)."
"We used three kinds of container stock: (1) 1-year-old seedling grown in larger containers, (2) 3-month-old stock grown in smaller containers, and (3) 3-month-old
stock started in smaller containers, and transplanted to larger containers after 7 weeks. We planted these into a field setting, along with direct seeded acorns. We
have also been manipulating irrigation methods as part of a larger study examining how horticultural practice affect plant success in restoration settings. As in
most of the studies reviewed here, the field sites had natural soil and rainfall, but some weed control."
" Our initial results parallel the others outlined above. Although acorns suffered greater initial losses, the survivors’ growth rates were similar across all seedling
sources. In irrigated plots, later survivorship was similar across seedling sources, but in unirrigated treatments, the oaks grown from field-sown acorns had significantly
greater survivorship in the first year than did the container stock, suggesting that direct-seeded oaks had greater ability to withstand drought than did container
stock (compare the results with live oak, above). Across all of these studies, there was the tendency for direct-seeded plants to perform better that container transplants. There are at least three
possible reasons for this — transplant shock, lack of (drought) hardening, and root deformation."

 

[TreeDaddy]

Great question; I suspect it represents what foresters, arborists, and nurserymen (to a lesser degree) called commonly accepted knowledge at that time (1996). The USDA - through its regional forestry research stations - has accumulated a plethora of research reports about oak trees. Over 50 + years ago, T. E. Russell - in another Oak Symposium Proceedings (1971) - contributed to this common core of knowledge by concluding ....
"Upland oaks can be established by seeding or planting, but additional experience is needed before these methods become economical alternatives to natural regeneration. Recently forested sites are generally more favorable than abandoned fields. Lack of repellents to protect acorns from animals severely limits direct seeding, but oaks can be planted readily by conventional methods and will survive well on suitable sites. They require ample sunlight for best growth, and competing vegetation must be controlled."
Russell easily nailed 2/3 of the commonly accepted beliefs about the most important factors contributing to the survival and vigorous growth - of young oaks ----- sufficient sunlight, a lack of competition and sufficient moisture. I know, I know ... that's just common sense; however, I'm not sure many persons would appreciate the overall importance of eliminating competition. Researchers at Kansas State conducted research studies that demonstrated that competition (grass or under story vegetation) could retard the growth of small oak seedlings by up to 70% annually. Now, let's consider a very recent research effort that pertains to one aspect of oak acorns. It appears size does matter; at least with regard to oak acorns.
Wenhui Shi, Pedro Villar-Salvador, Guolei Li & Xiaoxu Jiang (2019) published a research report that concluded that "Acorn size is more important than nursery fertilization for outplanting performance of Quercus variabilis container seedlings>"
They noted... "The use of small acorns will result in the production of a higher proportion of small seedlings containing low nutrient levels and having poor outplanting performance in oak container seedlings. Nursery fertilization partially offsets the negative effect of small acorns on seedling attributes in the nursery but not on outplanting performance."

In an effort to tie this ACORN-SIZE-KNOWlLEDGE to our efforts at habitat management via oak tree propagation, I'll start another post with a framework of important questions where applied research might be of value.

First; however, I'll provide a little more research support for telemark's question.

What techniques( if any) were used to thwart predation from squirrels,hogs,etc?

For bottomland reforestation, sunlight and moisture seem relatively easy to provide


Were techniques to eliminate competition and protection from predation discussed?

thanks,

bill

 

[Teeder]

Telemark ... some more research - supporting the 1996 conclusion favoring direct seeding .....

Container Stock Versus Direct Seeding for Woody Species in Restoration Sites©

Truman P. Young and Richard Y. Evans Department of Environmental Horticulture, University of California, Davis, CA 95616 USA
McCreary has been examining the success of blue oaks (Quercus douglasii) planted using different stock and different maintenance. Although 1st year survival
was greater in container stock than from acorns, thereafter, survivorship was similar and growth rates were significantly higher in oaks planted as acorns (Fig.
2b). These results come from separate experiments not designed to test these differences directly, but there are no reasons to believe that they are not real.

" Marshall and Gilman (1997) examined the roots of live oak (Q. virginiana) that had been either field-grown or container-grown prior to transplantation. They also
found the field-grown stock had greater root mass at both shallow (0 to 25 cm) and deep (75 to 100cm) horizons, but not at intermediate depths. The roots of
container-grown stock, but not field-grown stock, suffered in unirrigated plots. In a similar study, Gilman and Beeson (1996) examined young laurel oaks (Q.
laurifolia) and East Palatka holly (Ilex ✕attenuata) that had been either field grown or container grown prior to transplantation. For both species, the fieldgrown
plants had greater height, above- and below-ground biomass, and greater rooting depth than container-grown plants."
"Prompted partly by these results, we have begun a study of factors affecting the success of valley oak seedlings (Q. lobata) in the field (Young and Evans, in prep)."
"We used three kinds of container stock: (1) 1-year-old seedling grown in larger containers, (2) 3-month-old stock grown in smaller containers, and (3) 3-month-old
stock started in smaller containers, and transplanted to larger containers after 7 weeks. We planted these into a field setting, along with direct seeded acorns. We
have also been manipulating irrigation methods as part of a larger study examining how horticultural practice affect plant success in restoration settings. As in
most of the studies reviewed here, the field sites had natural soil and rainfall, but some weed control."
" Our initial results parallel the others outlined above. Although acorns suffered greater initial losses, the survivors’ growth rates were similar across all seedling
sources. In irrigated plots, later survivorship was similar across seedling sources, but in unirrigated treatments, the oaks grown from field-sown acorns had significantly
greater survivorship in the first year than did the container stock, suggesting that direct-seeded oaks had greater ability to withstand drought than did container
stock (compare the results with live oak, above). Across all of these studies, there was the tendency for direct-seeded plants to perform better that container transplants. There are at least three
possible reasons for this — transplant shock, lack of (drought) hardening, and root deformation."

I certainly get all of that, but I like to pick about 20% of the best seedlings each year for the best places I have to put them. My survivor rate is about 80% over 25+ years. My brother, who direct seeds is about <1% survivor.

 

[OakSeeds]

TD,
protection from predators is probably the remaining factor critical to the survival and strong growth of young oak trees. The summary references of the studies cited did not indicate specific forms of predator protection that may have been employed. It's even possible none were employed if the research sites exhibited extremely low predator density levels. Sure doesn't work that way for those of us working to establish trees in more hostile environments with regard to predators.

 

[OakSeeds]

Around April 10, I direct seeded 3 columnar white oaks along a creek bank (in town) to ultimately serve as a screen. One of the well mulched / fenced trees is on its 2nd flush of leaves in 76 days (almost 10 weeks). We'll see where the tree is in another 67 days (around the first of September). I'm going to keep it well watered and see if I can nudge it along for hybrid vigor growth.
P.S. I provided a weak fertilizer shot 7 days after the oak came up. 2nd photo is a "sibling" direct seeded at the same time (photo sometime in last 2 weeks / forgot to date)

 

[OakSeeds]

update .... 14 days later; about 90 days. It's leaves have developed well and show excellent color; it is now 13 inches tall displaying a solid, straight trunk with good diameter. All I did was stick the acorn in the ground, add a little protection and a tad of fertilizer for growth and let mamma Nature do the rest.