The native range of elk and other stupid animals...

West_Fork

5 year old buck +
This article discusses the Lewis and Clark's account of elk along their route. Which is far north from where I live.


It concludes that plains (rangeland) and woodlands are habitat for elk, and suggests that according to early accounts elk are more at home in the woods. This still being a debate among biologists today.


The pre-euro range of elk according to the Wildlife Management Institute.

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Using the diaries of explorers and early settlers is great way to determine what's missing and what went where. Another method that covers a far greater time period is archeological surveys and diggings; bones found in habitation sites, rock art, pack rat middens, etc. Another is to look at the vegetation communities.

I can only speak to my backyard and RM elk, but this is today's range of elk based on repeated first hand aerial and ground surveys. Note that there is no empirical evidence showing that wolves inhabited any of the blue area and many parts of the black stippled area. All elk within the blue area are artificial and planted in the 1950s, as are a number of herds in the black stipple.

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Controlling elk populations requires culling, deep into their historical habitat. Private property restricting hunting access is often the reason given for an unsustainable population.


I know from firsthand experience that regulated (and a a bit of unregulated) hunting by individuals does not keep a population in check. I have watched over the past 35 years elk hunter numbers increase, weapons continue to improve, tactics continue to improve, and the elk numbers keep growing. Never once in my area have they ever had to back off the numbers of tags sold, and they continue to increase. This year was large increase, due to my own bitching and bitching of others. I don't see it making a dent yet. I guess we don't bitch as loud as "The Church." We need commercial harvesting.

So with no evidence of historic or prehistoric elk occupation, and or no evidence of wolves or other predators, what keep elk in check in many of these areas elk supposedly occupied pre-white man? I have seen evidence of elk in rock art where there are no elk today (6-8" precip zone), and a lack of evidence in rock art where elk are today. Surely they would be depicting these things and they seem to most other megafauna.

Now, just for shits and giggles, think about the fact that the blue area in the map above is occupied by approximately 35,000 feral (wild) horses. They make any elk problems unnoticeable.

One thing many biologists fail to recognize is the change in climate in my region over the past 20,000 years, and especially the past 1,600. The simply way to view this is a latitudinal shift in vegetation to the north, but restricted in some places by geology. The animals shift with it.
 
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So we can agree that your elk are a blessing compared to the feral horses?😁

The LDS church getting a UT agency to act faster than regular folks is the least surprising thing I’ve read today.
 
Further question- how big of an impact does “historic range” play in why the game agency keeps elk there?

NE MN wasn’t whitetail range before euros but damned if there isn’t pressure to improve their numbers up there constantly. St. Louis county MN is at the top of the all time booner list for whitetails.
 
Further question- how big of an impact does “historic range” play in why the game agency keeps elk there?

NE MN wasn’t whitetail range before euros but damned if there isn’t pressure to improve their numbers up there constantly. St. Louis county MN is at the top of the all time booner list for whitetails.
I know this isn't your point, but St Louis County is also about the size of Rhode Island (sarcasm, kind of).
 
I know this isn't your point, but St Louis County is also about the size of Rhode Island (sarcasm, kind of).

I know but regardless its not native whitetail range yet it's put out a pile of booners and there are generations of hunters with strong ties to deer camp up there. Most don't consider that it isn't native range.
 
I think too often we consider native range frozen in time. Native range vs historic range. Are they the same? Ranges of critters have been in constant motion for as long as there have been critters.
 
Brown trout and pheasant have no business here yet we do all we can to protect them. Which is a side argument.

But in this case of elk in Utah I can see both sides. You’re dealing with a native species in a historical area that surely crossed into the supposed no elk areas. Now does their simply using of those areas, if only infrequently, give them some perpetual right to it or should it be based on resident herds or should be some other metric to determine pecking order? To get upset at rmef or other parties for promoting elk in a region because it upsets agricultural (crop or cattle) is where i personally side with the elk. Alfalfa and angus have less business being on the landscape than an elk in that instance. If we can figure out a way to play nice and both sides compromise, I think ultimately that’s the solution. But to displace a legacy mammal that may or may not have used a small corner of habitat in a region they undoubtedly inhabited at the benefit of an individuals want to profit off of unquestionably introduced species seems hypocritical. To say the elk need to be returned to where they originated from based on what we can dig up is to say the angus need to return to Scotland.
 
Brown trout and pheasant have no business here yet we do all we can to protect them. Which is a side argument.

But in this case of elk in Utah I can see both sides. You’re dealing with a native species in a historical area that surely crossed into the supposed no elk areas. Now does their simply using of those areas, if only infrequently, give them some perpetual right to it or should it be based on resident herds or should be some other metric to determine pecking order? To get upset at rmef or other parties for promoting elk in a region because it upsets agricultural (crop or cattle) is where i personally side with the elk. Alfalfa and angus have less business being on the landscape than an elk in that instance. If we can figure out a way to play nice and both sides compromise, I think ultimately that’s the solution. But to displace a legacy mammal that may or may not have used a small corner of habitat in a region they undoubtedly inhabited at the benefit of an individuals want to profit off of unquestionably introduced species seems hypocritical. To say the elk need to be returned to where they originated from based on what we can dig up is to say the angus need to return to Scotland.
It isn't hypocritical from an ecological perspective. If elk now inhabit range that they did not historically due to humans relocating them (with no scientific justification), and it runs counter to the trend of climate and plant communities, and we are seeing a decline and likely local extinction of certain forage plants and other fauna, it has nothing to do with agriculture, it has everything to do with ecological function and processes. But, the fact is that cattle can be and are easily controlled. Grazing use levels can be controlled, seasons of use can be controlled, the range of cattle can be easily controlled. That is not the case with elk. Elk do not understand that if they graze an area repeatedly during the critical growing season it will result in a loss of the forage and a significant change to the veg community and ecological processes.
 
It isn't hypocritical from an ecological perspective. If elk now inhabit range that they did not historically due to humans relocating them (with no scientific justification), and it runs counter to the trend of climate and plant communities, and we are seeing a decline and likely local extinction of certain forage plants and other fauna, it has nothing to do with agriculture, it has everything to do with ecological function and processes. But, the fact is that cattle can be and are easily controlled. Grazing use levels can be controlled, seasons of use can be controlled, the range of cattle can be easily controlled. That is not the case with elk. Elk do not understand that if they graze an area repeatedly during the critical growing season it will result in a loss of the forage and a significant change to the veg community and ecological processes.
Well said and I’m open to all sides on this. I have trouble when the farmer around here is bitching up a storm and demanding depredation permits because the deer (who belong here) are eating HIS beans (that don’t belong here) and he wants the world to revolve around him. I’m not well versed on the nuances of western ag/animal issues so while I have a holistic opinion i probably don’t operate well in the small details.
 
Let me pose this question. If a farmer comes into an area like yours or some dry area of Idaho or wherever and gets water rights to row crop. He plants 2000 acres of corn and alfalfa in artificially viable ground. All the sudden the elk, who haven’t lived there previously find this and move into the area. They are camping in farmers fields and he is livid. He wants the elk gone. But why does he have any say when he came into an area that has zero business growing crops but through technological advancements is able to? Stuff like that is where I have zero sympathy. Elk are doing elk things at that point.
 
A bit of a tangent - I've followed MT Elk management politics pretty close. There are some billionaire ranch owners that have a lot of influence who lead certain groups complaining of too many elk. Yet many of those people are the ones with the large ranches harboring said elk. They angle for more bull tags that can be monetized rather than actually killing the elk and dont let folks on their ranches. It's easier to have sympathy for folks like @West_Fork who seemingly tries to utilize hunters who appreciate the opportunity to hunt and remove some elk.

It's a complicated issue with lots of stakeholders wanting different things and I can identify with the heartburn of most sides.
 
Let me pose this question. If a farmer comes into an area like yours or some dry area of Idaho or wherever and gets water rights to row crop. He plants 2000 acres of corn and alfalfa in artificially viable ground. All the sudden the elk, who haven’t lived there previously find this and move into the area. They are camping in farmers fields and he is livid. He wants the elk gone. But why does he have any say when he came into an area that has zero business growing crops but through technological advancements is able to? Stuff like that is where I have zero sympathy. Elk are doing elk things at that point.
Even worse than that is in Nevada. About 300 yards from my office in town is a newly planted field, maybe a 20 acre 3/4 pivot watering a very poor crop of something growing on very poor soil. The only purpose of putting that ground in production is to obtain deer tags that sell for $15,000-$200,000. Many producers in Nevada make more money off of hunting tags than crop production, but Nevada is less than 30% private property which makes it a very unique situation.
 
I've always thought that the large blocks of public land out west should have bison reintroduced. The return on investment by selling bison hunting licenses would likely far exceed the rental income generated by selling grazing leases on the public land. Some of those public properties we've hunted were grazed down to nothing and nearly worthless to wildlife.
 
I've always thought that the large blocks of public land out west should have bison reintroduced. The return on investment by selling bison hunting licenses would likely far exceed the rental income generated by selling grazing leases on the public land. Some of those public properties we've hunted were grazed down to nothing and nearly worthless to wildlife.
They would die in Nevada after they decimate the range. Just look at the horses, which is most likely what is responsible for the "grazed down to nothing" you see, or you were simply near a watering location. https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/636072

Well over 120,000 feral horses grazing in the west and increasing at 18% per year.
 
Not to mention non native species receiving federal protections at the expense of native species. We should kill every one of those damn things and let the buzzards and condors and coyotes have a field day. Bleeding heart western federal judges have made some of the most ridiculous decisions that fly in the face of science because liberals tend to react with emotion over reason.
 
They would die in Nevada after they decimate the range. Just look at the horses, which is most likely what is responsible for the "grazed down to nothing" you see, or you were simply near a watering location. https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/636072

Well over 120,000 feral horses grazing in the west and increasing at 18% per year.
The poorly grazed public properties I was described were in Wyoming and South Dakota and they were grazed by cattle. Some of these were thousands of acres that were grazed down to nothing. It was frustrating because adjacent private pastures were grazed much more moderately and had plenty of grass for the cattle and wildlife.

I don't know much about bison or their native ranges, but I know there's currently a herd in Arizona so I'm assuming they could survive in some dry areas. I was referring primarily to some large public areas in that I've hunted in SD, ND, MT and WY. Cattle do great there, so I'm sure the wild bison could survive there again if given the opportunity.

I agree with you on the horse situation, that makes no sense to me. They are not native and are taking resources away from native animals (and cattle).
 
I've always thought that the large blocks of public land out west should have bison reintroduced. The return on investment by selling bison hunting licenses would likely far exceed the rental income generated by selling grazing leases on the public land. Some of those public properties we've hunted were grazed down to nothing and nearly worthless to wildlife.

You think ranchers are pissed off about elk, talk to them about reintroducing bison... ooof! Looking at MT, USFS has $16 million in grazing lease revenue annually, I'm sure BLM has a bunch too. I doubt bison hunting would cover that. Not to mention ranchers run and basically are the legislature in many western states..

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Bison tags in Wyoming for nonresidents are $2700 for cows and $6000 for bulls, so it wouldn't take too many bison licenses to get to $16M in revenue. Likely around 4000 licenses would be needed to hit that revenue number, which would be possible considering how many cattle those public properties can feed.

I agree it will likely never happen given the local opposition, but I still think it would be a good idea.
 
Bison tags in Wyoming for nonresidents are $2700 for cows and $6000 for bulls, so it wouldn't take too many bison licenses to get to $16M in revenue. Likely around 4000 licenses would be needed to hit that revenue number, which would be possible considering how many cattle those public properties can feed.

I agree it will likely never happen given the local opposition, but I still think it would be a good idea.
I’m pretty sure there’s enough funny money exchanging hands on those cattle leases on public land that you would never convince the powers to be to make that change. They don’t want a pay cut.
 
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