Stock Market is the bottom in?

[Bowsnbucks]

My first home was 3 BR / 2 bath....and cost me 20k.

Those were the days. The avg. home buyer doesn't realize how much mark-up there is on new homes. It's insane.

 

[SD51555]

I watched the speech to the nation in the 1980's where a certain president said "...We're going to change our economy from a manufacturing-based economy, to a service-based economy." That's when the flood gates opened up to the offshoring of "American" industry. Even our military Joint Chiefs of Staff argued (for a couple decades) against moving vital industries overseas for national security reasons. But corporate "America" won the day - and our manufacturing left the U.S.

All Americans should do some homework and see WHO signed all the "free trade" (poverty-cheap labor) agreements that cut the usual government-to-government steps that used to be required to set up shop in another country. - - - All to get the "American" industries moved offshore QUICKER. I lived through this and watched EVERY move made ......... and who made them.

That stuff goes way beyond presidents and congress. It was ordained at some point in history that the west would not be allowed to grow, and the process of de-industrializing began. Carter had all sorts of goons in his administration appointed by the Committee of 300 (google it). Regan filled his administration with goons from the same group, and every president after, including Trump. If you really wanna know all about it, read the first 60 pages the book below, then watch the new netflix documentary on three mile island.

If I were a betting man, Reagan tried stepping out of line, and that's why he was shot. After Reagan, they must have figured out it was easier to just run both candidates instead of having to keep shooting presidents and presidential candidates. Bush 1, 2, clinton, dole, clinton, gore, kerry, mccain, obama, romney, biden, all put there by the committee. I'm not sure trump isn't in that group too. He's acted up quite a bit, but he hasn't taken any real action on the root of the problem. He didn't talk of wrestling power away from the fed, or “splintering the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scattering it to the winds.”

 

[Foggy47]

^ Lots of reasons we sent our heavy industries overseas. I worked in the Aluminum industry for years.....and watched no further investment made in the primary capacity for aluminum as "we" outsourced the pot lines and casting and power industries to asian sources. Meanwhile....demand was surging. Nobody wanted those aluminum and steel casting facilities in their towns anymore.....we were going global.....with labor being 1/10th of what it is here....no OSHA....lower energy costs and much more. In the case of aluminum...our power got way too expensive.

Look at our container fleets that evolved to transport the goods. That barely existed in the 60's and 70's. Amazing how quickly things changed. I remember too the speeches about how we were going to be changing from manufacturing to an information and technology base. Not too sure that was such a good thing for production workers.....but there was not too much push back. I'm certain some think tanks had a grandiose plan for our future. .....and here it is. Once again the USA has helped so many nations to develop.....while getting little in return. I too think this is beyond political parties...or, a bi-partisan effort. They just went way too far.

 

[Foggy47]

When I quit my sales job in the Aluminum industry......I figured I would not have to compete with foreign sources for such a thing as the products I was making. I felt the market was too small for folks to spend time infringing on what I was doing. WRONG. So many "entrepreneurs" with the know-how to "steal" a successful American produced product and have it duplicated off-shore at a lower price....was a huge thing in the 80's and 90's. Many Taiwan "chop shops" evolved to copy most any product you would bring them.

The Chinese and Taiwanese would "nationalize" tooling that was available to everyone in their land. They even set up booths at the SHOT Show (in my case) that would offer their Asian prices for products you would show them at the show. Leaper's was one such company that would duplicate anything you showed them. Pretty soon....many of our old standby products were being produced for less overseas. The SHOT show became crowded with Asian attendees....although few of them had legitimate "BUYING" interests....they merely were looking for popular products to copy back in China.

I remember the buyer from WalMart telling me that my product was hanging on the wall in a chop-shop in Taiwan. Where he could buy it for 1/2 of what I would sell our products. He TOLD me what he would buy from me and at what price he would pay.....or he would buy from the source in Taiwan. I told him that I was happy that it would be him that breached my patent.....as his company had allot of money....and I had a good lawyer. Grin. Selling him would have caused me to loose all my other business....IMO....at that time. Of course....sooner or later someone else figured out a way to circumvent this situation.

Over time....the way we did business has changed. There used to be a code whereby you would not "fish in another man's stream". I think that ended in the 90's and folks all started to infringe on each other's products. Business integrity has all but disappeared in today's 'Merica.

I also remember the Japanese business men touring all our facilities back in the 60's / 70's and we (Americans) showed them how (with open arms) to do what we were doing......and the Japanese came back in Spades. Showing us how to REALLY build cars with quality. A whole 'nother story.

America has taught much of the world how to do so many things that have evolved here......yet we have so little to show for our generosity......IMO.

 

[SD51555]

Apparently, I wasn't the only one thinking the 6-mo treasury was a steal in this environment. The 3-mo treasury had $311 million in retail investor demand. The 6-mo had $2.8 Billion in demand.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Not too sure that was such a good thing for production workers.....but there was not too much push back.

There was pushback by the union folks - but they were poo-pooed as "whiners." As it turns out - those union folks were VERY prophetic as to what would happen as time went on. Lots of white collar, clerical, engineering, tech jobs, and MANY supporting industrial jobs left too - or were eliminated. Name a country that' has PROSPERED for decades without having a vast manufacturing base.

The "service jobs" that were promised by Reagan (for those who don't know - or admit it- it was REAGAN who made that speech) as replacements for manufacturing jobs don't pay sh#&. Since when does clerking in a store (HD, Lowes, a plumbing supply, delivery service, or any such "service job" ) pay enough to support a family since about 1985?? AND ------- since we're all supposed to "save for retirement and our kids' college" ------- how do such low-paying jobs have enough money left over after daily expenses to be ABLE to save for those 2 goals????? If the U.S wants to have everyone "financially independent" so no Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid is needed ------ how does that all work for 300 million American workers???

One of the early "explanation lures" told to the American people was that moving offshore would keep "costs down" ------ and the American people took that to mean their costs to buy things. Having taken economics for several years, along with my other career courses, I can say that "costs" are NOT the same as "prices." Americans heard "keep costs down" - and thought that meant what they'd be paying much less for goods from overseas. Arrow dress shirts for men were $12 before the move to China. As soon as the labels said "Made in China" on those same shirts, the price had shot UP to $22 per shirt. Don't try to say I'm crazy, because I bought Arrow dress shirts - before and after the offshoring. PRICES haven't come down ------ worker COSTS have gone way down. ( you know - because American workers were always paid "way too much"). As Americans, we're also paying for all the shipping costs for bringing in goods from around the globe ------ the labor of loading / unloading & moving the goods, the FUEL for all those barges & ships ------- it all gets passed on to us consumers. Think not??? If labor is poverty-cheap overseas, (the reason "American" businesses moved in the first place) why do our "finished goods" cost more than before the moves offshore????? Does anyone really think big business isn't going to pass on the costs of global shipping to US???

I have a bridge to sell ya.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

There was pushback by the union folks - but they were poo-pooed as "whiners." As it turns out - those union folks were VERY prophetic as to what would happen as time went on. Lots of white collar, clerical, engineering, tech jobs, and MANY supporting industrial jobs left too - or were eliminated. Name a country that' has PROSPERED for decades without having a vast manufacturing base.

The "service jobs" that were promised by Reagan (for those who don't know - or admit it- it was REAGAN who made that speech) as replacements for manufacturing jobs don't pay sh#&. Since when does clerking in a store (HD, Lowes, a plumbing supply, delivery service, or any such "service job" ) pay enough to support a family since about 1985?? AND ------- since we're all supposed to "save for retirement and our kids' college" ------- how do such low-paying jobs have enough money left over after daily expenses to be ABLE to save for those 2 goals????? If the U.S wants to have everyone "financially independent" so no Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid is needed ------ how does that all work for 300 million American workers???

One of the early "explanation lures" told to the American people was that moving offshore would keep "costs down" ------ and the American people took that to mean their costs to buy things. Having taken economics for several years, along with my other career courses, I can say that "costs" are NOT the same as "prices." Americans heard "keep costs down" - and thought that meant what they'd be paying much less for goods from overseas. Arrow dress shirts for men were $12 before the move to China. As soon as the labels said "Made in China" on those same shirts, the price had shot UP to $22 per shirt. Don't try to say I'm crazy, because I bought Arrow dress shirts - before and after the offshoring. PRICES haven't come down ------ worker COSTS have gone way down. ( you know - because American workers were always paid "way too much"). As Americans, we're also paying for all the shipping costs for bringing in goods from around the globe ------ the labor of loading / unloading & moving the goods, the FUEL for all those barges & ships ------- it all gets passed on to us consumers. Think not??? If labor is poverty-cheap overseas, (the reason "American" businesses moved in the first place) why do our "finished goods" cost more than before the moves offshore????? Does anyone really think big business isn't going to pass on the costs of global shipping to US???

I have a bridge to sell ya.

Mr. Reagan assured us that us little folks would be o.k. when the 1%'s made lots of money and some of it "trickled down" to us.

 

[jsasker007]

If the U.S wants to have everyone "financially independent" so no Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid is needed ------ how does that all work for 300 million American workers???

Our government doesn't want us financially independent.

 

[Foggy47]

I'll never forget Ross Perot telling Slick Willy Clinton something to this effect on a debate on national TV....."just because you can operate the corner drug store......that does not mean you can operate Wall Mart".

I am sympathetic to the American Worker......but I do not see it as a political issue. The demand by industry for "cheap" electrical power on the west coast is what brought about the Bonneville Power Authority on the river system along the coast. Converting bauxite into aluminum takes a huge amount of electric power. I think some 40% of the cost of aluminum production is electricity and gas.....maybe more. Our government was not about to make more or cheaper electric power. Instead we began shipping our coal overseas to produce the energy needed. Companies like Norse Hydro power (Norway), with their cheap power, got into the biz. Same goes for Canadian companies with low cost power. Yes, low cost labor was a big factor too. Then too.....labor would shut down many production facilities with a strike....costing biz huge sums of money to restart those idled plants. Takes about a year to re-start an aluminum pot line once it's shut down. Many reasons that industry went looking other directions.

 

[jsasker007]

Jobs done by actual people are being replaced by automation where possible. Automation is the future. People cost too much and will usually keep chasing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. jmho

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Those were the days. The avg. home buyer doesn't realize how much mark-up there is on new homes. It's insane.

I’m a builder, there’s mark up for sure but it’s relative to risk. We don’t have a bailout or insurance policy if it sits for a year or if we have to dump it cause the market tanks due to no fault of our own. The other thing that gets conveniently overlooked is we can spend 8 months or more paying out on a project and not get crap coming in until it closes so it sometimes could seem like you are making a lot but when you break it down to time spent it’s on par or below many other industries. Plus people like to talk about how much money builders make when times are good…im not sure anyone wants to be a builder right now.

 

[Foggy47]

I'll never forget Ross Perot telling Slick Willy Clinton something to this effect on a debate on national TV....."just because you can operate the corner drug store......that does not mean you can operate Wall Mart".

I am sympathetic to the American Worker......but I do not see it as a political issue. The demand by industry for "cheap" electrical power on the west coast is what brought about the Bonneville Power Authority on the river system along the coast. Converting bauxite into aluminum takes a huge amount of electric power. I think some 40% of the cost of aluminum production is electricity and gas.....maybe more. Our government was not about to make more or cheaper electric power. Instead we began shipping our coal overseas to produce the energy needed. Companies like Norse Hydro power (Norway), with their cheap power, got into the biz. Same goes for Canadian companies with low cost power. Yes, low cost labor was a big factor too. Then too.....labor would shut down many production facilities with a strike....costing biz huge sums of money to restart those idled plants. Takes about a year to re-start an aluminum pot line once it's shut down. Many reasons that industry went looking other directions.

Jobs done by actual people are being replaced by automation where possible. Automation is the future. People cost too much and will usually keep chasing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. jmho

"Everyone". (labor, management, vendors, etc) always want a bigger slice of the pie. Automation is a big part of our future no doubt. I think much of labor does not want that change....and resist it until it's broken. It's a complicated puzzle.....not just a single answer.

 

[SD51555]

The wizard is speaking out of both sides of his mouth and spooked the sunfish.

 

[Tree Spud]

Jobs done by actual people are being replaced by automation where possible. Automation is the future. People cost too much and will usually keep chasing the greener grass on the other side of the fence. jmho

Automation looks attractive when labor overprices itself, cannot meet performance goals, and is unreliable. Every industrial segment that became unionized either forced jobs off shore or accelerated the development of automation.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

"Everyone". (labor, management, vendors, etc) always want a bigger slice of the pie. Automation is a big part of our future no doubt. I think much of labor does not want that change....and resist it until it's broken. It's a complicated puzzle.....not just a single answer.

I saw a lot of automation in the last 3 or 4 years before I retired. Automation alone won't save a company. The automation has to actually work, mechanically and financially. I've seen some jobs automated and the automation didn't get the job done correctly and then taken out and the job was put back to a manual task performed by people. I've also seen jobs that were automated and could get the tasks completed perfectly but production was reduced by 60%. In both those examples the cost of automating was wasted. And actually cost the company money to accomplish nothing. If the employees see this happen too many times they lose faith in management.

The labor that didn't want to see automation seemed to be older or uncaring workers. The older employees didn't want to learn how to deal with robot controllers or HMI's. The uncaring workers were young enough and smart enough but just didn't care. Most were turds that should have been gotten rid of anyway. The workers that did embrace the automation and learned it ended up in pretty nice jobs that paid a decent wage.

I think the future is in designing, installing and repairing automation. It's here to stay whether we want it or not.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

Automation looks attractive when labor overprices itself, cannot meet performance goals, and is unreliable. Every industrial segment that became unionized either forced jobs off shore or accelerated the development of automation.

It also looks attractive when a company can eliminate on the job injuries. That was the drive behind a lot of the automation where I used to work.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

People act like automation kills the workforce. That’s false, an entire industry evolves around the development and maintenance of automation.

 

[jsasker007]

We were basically forced to invest huge money into automation because no one wants to work in our area.

 

[SD51555]

The high yielding dividend names are taking it as a group this afternoon, at least mine are. The little green man started flapping and it all turned red.

 

[bwoods11]

We are due for a drop. The outlook is bleak. Hopefully the dividend stocks can be bought at a discount! The yield will be much better overall.