spring planted winter rye?

[chummer]

I am over seeding all my plots with WR this weekend. Last year I did it July 4th and there was still none left by November 15th. I probably won't get any more growth but I figured it will help keep the weeds down.

 

[huthut]

Chummer - how many acres do you plant and what was the maximum height your rye attained last year?

 

[chummer]

Chummer - how many acres do you plant and what was the maximum height your rye attained last year?

I am just under 2 acres. It reached about 15". It turns into a clump at some point. Last year was the first year I planted it and the deer didn't touch it until the end of October. Then it was mowed to the ground in about 3 weeks. I have no ag in my area and about 15 deer that are regulars.

 

[wiscwhip]

So what I'm reading is that you had comparatively tall rye and the deer didn't find it to be any less palatable than the 4" to 8" rye that everyone says gets the most usage. This is what dipper has been trying to say all along and what we had found at our old place through trial and error. Deer will eat the rye pretty much regardless of the height, as long as it hasn't reach the stage of growth that the seeds are forming. Palatability is more tied to the plants life cycle than the actual physical height of the plants.

 

[chummer]

So what I'm reading is that you had comparatively tall rye and the deer didn't find it to be any less palatable than the 4" to 8" rye that everyone says gets the most usage. This is what dipper has been trying to say all along and what we had found at our old place through trial and error. Deer will eat the rye pretty much regardless of the height, as long as it hasn't reach the stage of growth that the seeds are forming. Palatability is more tied to the plants life cycle than the actual physical height of the plants.

I planted it based on Dipper's experience and info.

 

[huthut]

Exce;;emt

I planted it based on Dipper's experience and info.

based on your experience - I will put some of my winter rye in sometime in May and the rest in Late June/early July

 

[tooln]

Dipper tell me this. Since you do a modified LC mix do you plant in July and then the fall plot in Aug? I also do the LC thing but really don't see the fall plot maturing. Would I be better planting it all in July? The past few years I have been putting in the brassicas the first part of July and the cereal the first part of Aug. Thanks

 

[huthut]

Dipper tell me this. Since you do a modified LC mix do you plant in July and then the fall plot in Aug? I also do the LC thing but really don't see the fall plot maturing. Would I be better planting it all in July? The past few years I have been putting in the brassicas the first part of July and the cereal the first part of Aug. Thanks

Tooln- You are in the same pattern as me. I have been following dippers comments for awhile and I am moving my rye planting to an earlier date to get more tonnage for browse. I was always concerned about deer preference for 15 inch tall rye, but that fear seems to be unfounded based on numerous observations from members. To me this is a real shift that I will definitely investigate this year and let everyone know my experience. I think this is particularly useful for those of us with high deer populations needing food deeper into the winter months.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

this year will be my first attempt at a full LC style rotation ie, the brassica mix, the rye/cereal mix, and the rye clover mix. I have a few questions on the rye/cereal mix in particular. I feel good with the brassica mix and rye/clover since they are plantings i have done in the past. The cereal mix has been the one component that I haven't tried and have little experience with.

Based on Doug's suggestions about diversified plant communities and healthy soil, identifying what types of plant communities dominate in the natural state and then planting contrary to that. ie if the plot area is predominately broadleaf (warm and cool season) you would go heavier on the grass component, and vice versa. A modified LC rye/cereal mix seems to be ideal. What modifications have people made to the mix? What are you guys using as the pea component? Clover? What type of oats?

As far as timing planting goes.....it seems you guys are getting it in the ground earlier for the sake of producing more tonnage....reason being two fold....1)Higher deer densities and 2)Greatere plant height and therefore access to the forage in deeper snows.

I have a moderate to high deer density and in some winters we get a decent amount of snow here in this part of PA. However in recent years we have winters with little snow. Our average annual snowfall for this area is between 80"-100" for what its worth obviously we have melt backs and at any one point in time we could have 12-20" of snow on the ground for extended periods of time. Would someone in my situation benefit from the earlier plant date. Are you guys that are planting earlier, typically planting in the same window as your brassica plantings? If so that would certainly be advantageous for me to get the planting all done in one shot.

 

[dipper]

Again, I'm replanting my plots based on when they are maturing and giving me free seed. That's about the beginning to mid July, depending on when my rye or oats matures.
I just see no point having to repeatedly Mow and spray plots. It's a waste of money and time. This rye growing right here was culti packed and sprayed ( due to quack grass moving in.) could of disced it a little to get quicker germination and growth. All I did was add a couple pounds of brassicas.

I didn't follow any seeding chart. Just let the plants grow. It is that simple.
I could have added some oats, clover, peas or whatever. To be honest I can't remember why, and the nice thing is. It doesn't matter, the deer loved it and I have a nice plot right now.
When this rye matures I flatten it again, and add whatever I'm thinking at the time.

 

[dipper]

If I was starting fresh now, I would plant oats. That can be your free seed this summer. That will mature around early to mid July. Flatten or disc it, than add your rye and other stuff.
I use the oats seed I combine off my fields or buy the cheapest stuff I can find. More expensive doesn't get you far when it comes to seed. The free stuff is the best.

 

[tooln]

Ok so here's my plan tell me what you think. I had 2 smaller plots and last winter connected them. It wasn't till last fall that I got the stumps dug out, after that I just threw down some rye and oats. I need to get some holes filled and the plot leveled. Currently it REALY wet. I figure it will be the end of May (depending on the weather) before I get it leveled. I figured that once this is done to plant a combination of winter rye, oats and maybe throw in some buckwheat, or go with just straight buckwheat. Then come early July pack it or disk and seed the entire LC mix.

 

[Steve Oehlenschlager]

Rye does best when it looks like a golf course in the fall. They don't like it tall!!!!! Don't plant it too early or it will be of no benefit. In central Minnesota, I plant it about August 15th if it is dry and Sept 1st if there is a ton of soil moisture. I see no benefit to planting it in the spring and it will generally not produce any grain if you do. It needs the cold period of winter to produce grain. Same with spring planted winter wheat. Plant it in the spring and you will get zero grain.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Your QDMA post showed tall rye that some people felt would not be palatable to the deer but my deer eat virtually anything -- i just need to get more food into the winter.

I'm afraid I'm the one that started that debate over there. At the risk of starting it all up again (I don't think Dipper and I will, as I believe he may not agree with me, but I think we got to the point where we at least understand what the other meant), my experiences show me that is a concern, but generally only where there is an abundance of food over winter. It's not that it's not palatable. It's just that more mature growth isn't quite as tender or quite as digestible (talking small degrees here...it's still plenty good for deer and tremendously better than eating pencil diameter sticks, pines or even most prime woody browse) My experiences in much of WI, MN and MI (except possibly for the southern regions of each) agrees with what Dipper is preaching about tall cereal rye and, for whatever it's worth, I think it's nuts on and an invaluable practice.

 

[dipper]

Rye eaten to the dirt a couple weeks ago in my garden. Ya my garden, and there are few deer around my garden. Haven't ever had to fence it off. 100s or acres of corn beans and lush alfalfa/ clover. The deer are still eating rye that was planted almost a year ago.
Be careful Steve I'm not the only one now.
Enlighten us on your failed planting scenarios? When were your failed planting dates?
My guess is you have never planted it early Steve. Rye planted now will be around the same height as a lot of the stuff I see in lickcreeks pictures. In good soil you can get a foot of growth in a couple months. Especially the further south you go, it is warmer longer. it only gets so tall and it dies......than it sends up new shoots like a tree suckering.....than it dies....eventually forming a clump of organic material, long and short shoots.
I don't have any understanding with you cause you were flat out wrong in that debate we had. You tried to say the stuff gets stemmy. In fact there is more tender growth in planting it earlier cause of the additional shoots.
Like I said plant one seed in a pot and see what happens. I know what happens been growing it for years. For those that don't, just like that seed company, dare to compare. Haha

 

[huthut]

I'm afraid I'm the one that started that debate over there. At the risk of starting it all up again (I don't think Dipper and I will, as I believe he may not agree with me, but I think we got to the point where we at least understand what the other meant), my experiences show me that is a concern, but generally only where there is an abundance of food over winter. It's not that it's not palatable. It's just that more mature growth isn't quite as tender or quite as digestible (talking small degrees here...it's still plenty good for deer and tremendously better than eating pencil diameter sticks, pines or even most prime woody browse) My experiences in much of WI, MN and MI (except possibly for the southern regions of each) agrees with what Dipper is preaching about tall cereal rye and, for whatever it's worth, I think it's nuts on and an invaluable practice.

Thanks for chiming in on this topic Steve -- I think it is starting to become more clear to everyone that in some instances it makes sense to have more mature (taller) rye on a property going into winter. This is certainly not for everyone. Deer density certainly has a role as does the soil type that some of us have to work with. I for one have a much better understanding of what I want to try this year on some of my sandy fields in Central wi that are in high deer density regions. Great discussion!

 

[dipper]

I'm actually suggesting not planting it this early. You better off going with oats now and taking the benefits of the free seed.
However, guys spend a lot of money on warm season plants like sunn hemp, buckwheat, etc. to prove their soil. Planting rye now is a great alternative to that, and you can leave it for the deer all year long.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Be careful Steve I'm not the only one now.
Enlighten us on your failed planting scenarios? When were your failed planting dates?
My guess is you have never planted it early Steve.

No need to be careful, as we agree on this at a rate of over 90%.

Each and every time I've planted cereal rye in WI, MN & MI, it's worked to perfection. Something you may want to experiment with is to not allowing your Cereal Rye planted last year to reach maturity this year. Just keep mowing it before it seeds out. I've done that a couple times and had not bad results.

I've planted it a handful of times with clover as a cover crop in the spring. I've also planted it a bunch with early planted brassicas (June, July & August). I've mostly come to the same conclusions you have, which is why I keep saying (both on the QDMA thread and here) that I think this is a great thread/topic.

Where I haven't had good luck with July planted cereal rye is in WC IL and MO. Now, I'm not making a blanket statement and saying a person will be disappointed if they do. I'm saying that I was, but there are many variables that could account for that. I believe the biggest was that none of these locations had snow cover for more than 10 day stretches and prime overwinter food was plentiful. On those farms, I was able to get deer to eat the very short, most tender growth, but they didn't hammer the taller, more mature plantings. In two of those cases, I used the mowing trick to get them on it (though one can't guarantee they wouldn't have anyway, they never did hit the tall cereal rye much in the brassica plantings I didn't mow on those two properties, which does indicate it was the mowing/reboot that helped...Planting later in subsequent years (in mid-late Sept down there), I did have good usage).

I'm in no way saying your advice is bad. In fact, one can make a strong case for planting early just to further build soils alone. I've had great success with early plantings further north and agree doing so provides more invaluable, cheap overwinter food. I suspect the same can be said for further south, in many situations. In my situations further south it just didn't produce the results I wanted. However, even on those farms, I could see how something as simple as an acorn crop failure could possibly change everything.

 

[James P. Bipps]

What ever happened to Steve and Dipper? At times I miss them, other times not.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I have no idea what happened to them. But as much as cereal rye gets used by a lot of guys, I'd like to see more info about spring vs. fall planting dates, and how mowing keeps try tender and green. And the timing of the mowing. Another thought - what other things could be planted with rye ( good for deer food ) that would still thrive when the plot is mowed.