Resolving a discrepancy between plat book and "actual" acreage for a potential purchase

[Hoytvectrix]

Interesting. OnX has been accurate in acreage on my properties in MN but it does include the roadway. I took a quick look at N. MO and noticed what you said, none of the rural roadways were included in the parcel outline.

It is a known fact that online mapping like OnX frequently has the boundaries off a little due to scaling errors but that is a different issue than the total acre # of a parcel. MN Counties all have a free GIS service that lets you look at boundaries of each parcel and tax info. Doesn't seem that MO's has as much info available.

This particular county does not have a free GIS service available. An adjoining county does which seems to solve a lot of these problems.

Welcome to Missouri The last piece I bought had 3 acres on the owners deed and the same 3 acres on the neighbors deed.
I knew that 3 acres wasn’t part of what I was buying but I couldn’t get my deed recorded for over a year. Eventually I had to file a quit claim deed on the three acres. Made my neighbor happy to know I wasn’t a jerk that was going to fight him over 3 acres.

I believe we go to the center of the road. But the road dept and water and electric companies have easements. And believe me the electric company thinks it’s 15 foot easement gives them the right to do anything anywhere. I’ve had two run ins with them already and the next time is going to get ugly!

Did you check out OnX or a similar app and compare that to the deed? Talking with a few other Missouri land owners (and on our home farm), we have heard both on whether or not it goes to the center of the road. My brother's piece does not include the road whereas others seem to. Even the clerk at the county office confirmed that they were not always consistent with what the plat acreage includes.

All of this has just convinced me that we will need an official survey done.

 

[Bill]

This particular county does not have a free GIS service available. An adjoining county does which seems to solve a lot of these problems.

Did you check out OnX or a similar app and compare that to the deed? Talking with a few other Missouri land owners (and on our home farm), we have heard both on whether or not it goes to the center of the road. My brother's piece does not include the road whereas others seem to. Even the clerk at the county office confirmed that they were not always consistent with what the plat acreage includes.

All of this has just convinced me that we will need an official survey done.

OnX listed a 115 acres piece of property I owned in NJ as being totally owned by a utility company. I had people showing up to hunt because they figured it was ignored land. I contacted OnX to tell them about it. They made me give them a copy of my deed. 6 months later it was still the same. I had to threaten legal action for them to do anything about it. OnX can kiss my ass!

 

[FarmerDan]

You absolutely do NOT use tax parcel boundaries to determine the acreage of any property. ONX and these other apps simply hijack the county tax parcel data and package it for your use. Spend an afternoon with me and I will tell you story after story of land that was purchased and/or sold based on assumed acreage...no matter the source. A deed and a survey plat (if there ever was a survey) are the only legal descriptions of property boundaries and, hence, acreage. Read the disclaimers on any site offering tax parcel maps. It will always say this is not a legal description. A fellow hunting friend bought 100 acres, more or less as advertised for a reasonable price per acre. Upon buying the property he had it surveyed and the property was found to contain 135 acres. The seller filed a lawsuit. The court said the seller properly described the property for sale indicating the land area was 100 acres - more or less.

I do some GIS work. Years ago my boss asked if I could tell him how many acres were in a parcel. He described the boundaries. I determined 29 acres. The seller said it was 20 acres and priced the property at the going per acres rate for 20 acres. After the sale the new owner, my boss and farmer had it surveyed. It was 28.9 acres.

A friend's family sold a section of a property they owned assuming acreage. It was a cash sale to a timber company. The property description was correct. After the sale the county and he agreed there were 253 acres remaining. The family paid taxes on 253 for over 10-years. The family recently sold the land. After a survey, the sale was on 203 acres. The sale was conducted properly but the years of erroneous tax payments were final.

Do a survey.

 

[FarmerDan]

Here in Virginia any one can go to county courthouse and, for $1 (maybe $2.50 in 2022!) get any property deed and attached survey plat if there is one. You can try to interpret it yourself. Or, hire a surveyor. That's what they do! They turn mysteries into realities and definitives.

 

[sandbur]

This is slightly off topic, but my quarter section is on the west end of the township. Our land is wider on the south end than the north end( think about it, the earth isn’t flat). I bought 159 acres and later got back one additional acre from an abandoned country school. The auction bill mentioned more acres and they were right. Actual acreage is about 170 acres.

Some quarter sections are 200 acres as you go south. Ag agencies knew this for years as fields were measured but the county didn’t catch on for decades, tax wise. Everyone just kept their mouths shut!


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[Spike_Horn_Shooter]

Here is your rub. You want this piece of land. It’s a sellers market. It may take 3-6 months for a survey crew to complete the job. 1-2 days in the field, 3-4 days at the town office researching deeds and a 5 month lead time. Seller probably doesn’t have a lot of money and might not want to wait that long. Other buyers may be willing to buy without a survey.

Make an offer - but pending survey. You lock the land up. You pay for the survey. The survey will belong to you. If it comes back squirrelly you can walk away. Or renegotiate. Try to sell the survey back to the seller if you walk away. If it comes out 165 all good. You benefit by having a survey. If it comes back 156, you can try to renegotiate, but the seller is going to be butt-hurt. But you have a leg to stand on.

Another thing is to walk the boundaries and place pins on OnX and use that to measure.

Or get the plat map. It will probably spell out the lines but using chains and links and weird markers. Spend the afternoon in determining what that equates to in feet and put those markers on OnX. Measure that.

9 acres is about 8% of the total land area. Up to you if that’s a deal breaker.

I’ve bought two properties with acreage. 1st one was 10 acres more or less (lots of properties were t/- 10 acres because you could install your own septic). I bought 10 more acres from the same guy and had the whole thing surveyed ($4600 in 2015). Original property ended up being 8 acres after survey. Original Deed basically said I owned the guys garage and 1/4 of his single wide. He ended up selling me 12 for the original price of 10 acres because I agreed to update the deed.

This last property I bought, I just looked at the tax maps, deed and walked it. There is some weirdness in the fences, but I paid $80k for 100 acres. If it ends up being 95 acres I still ended up with a good deal. I am going to have it surveyed in the spring. Not for an acreage increase or decrease - but because I want to know the property lines in case of a dispute with any of the neighbors.

A survey and we’ll defined property boundaries can significantly Increase the value of raw land. Plus it’s a legal document. If there is a recorded survey and the neighbor starts get squirrelly with trespassing, logging, whatever. It’s all in your favor.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Speaking of surveys, what is the going rate for decent sized tracts? I’ve heard upwards of 13k for 250 acres. That can be a deal breaker for some people to ever get one done

 

[Tree Spud]

Speaking of surveys, what is the going rate for decent sized tracts? I’ve heard upwards of 13k for 250 acres. That can be a deal breaker for some people to ever get one done

There are generally 2 types of surveys. One is having the surveyor to come out and just locate/mark the existing boundary pins. The other is doing an actual survey of the property. Just marking the pins the last time I had that done was ~ $1600.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

There are generally 2 types of surveys. One is having the surveyor to come out and just locate/mark the existing boundary pins. The other is doing an actual survey of the property. Just marking the pins the last time I had that done was ~ $1600.

Does marking the pins accomplish much in terms of establishing an accurate acreage?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

There are generally 2 types of surveys. One is having the surveyor to come out and just locate/mark the existing boundary pins. The other is doing an actual survey of the property. Just marking the pins the last time I had that done was ~ $1600.

This assuming there are pins somewhere close. If there are pins, they will find the corners, and mark them on their GPS, then map them on their map.

I had sold a farm, and some of the marks were things such as "30' west of big oak tree on SE corner" that was last done in the 60's, where the tree was long gone.

Where I am now, we had 1 survey pin about a 1/4 mile from mile property, and they were able to use that for a reference, then they installed one other pin in the opposite back corner.

 

[Mortenson]

Not sure your guys' experiences, but we've found every survey is always different from the prior ones and every surveyor always says theirs is right.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Not sure your guys' experiences, but we've found every survey is always different from the prior ones and every surveyor always says theirs is right.

I want to believe that the most recent is most accurate due to measuring advancements.

 

[omicron1792]

I want to believe that the most recent is most accurate due to measuring advancements.

A couple of years ago I had a full survey including maps, they marked and painted all lines. Was about 1000 dollars.

Sometimes living in alabama is a good thing.

Almost all the “original” lines were off by 10-20 feet. Many of my neighbors it’s fences were on my property. I let it all slide.

Took the county 3 years to updated the gis data. OnX still wasn’t updated last time I checked.

 

[Mortenson]

I want to believe that the most recent is most accurate due to measuring advancements.

I want to also. I think sometimes it depends on the mood of the intern and are they hot and sweaty.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

A couple of years ago I had a full survey including maps, they marked and painted all lines. Was about 1000 dollars.

Sometimes living in alabama is a good thing.

Almost all the “original” lines were off by 10-20 feet. Many of my neighbors it’s fences were on my property. I let it all slide.

Took the county 3 years to updated the gis data. OnX still wasn’t updated last time I checked.

Old property had a 50 acre tract, survey done in the recent past that was recorded and yet onx showed it as 68 acres. I don’t put a ton of stock in their lines. I think their main focus is out west. A lot less tracts of land to focus on, much higher user base and high stakes in their accuracy because they often determining between public and private lands.

 

[PatinPA]

My boundary lines do not match the County GIS map. I'm still confused in the one corner. Not so much for mine but two other neighbors come together with mine and there are multiple boundary stakes within 50 yards of each other. I can't find the one corner stake either. I'm really interested in trying to find it too. I'd love to put a stand up along that boundary and there are a couple of nice trees to put it in on what has to be right on the border and I really wanted to be sure before I put a stand in it.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Interesting thread, makes me want to learn more about surveying. Sad thing is I had to take a surveying course in college (dont remember a thing) and I'm a PM for a large contractor where Surveying accuracy is very important and errors occur more than they should but usually i task others with making sure we're covered. I feel like most of the errors we see are caused by different engineers using different plane references.

 

[Tree Spud]

Does marking the pins accomplish much in terms of establishing an accurate acreage?

The pins should represent the historical boundaries of the property. The legal description should use a survey benchmark monument marker as reference to the legal description & pin placement. Survey map will ultimately show total acreage. Probably need to check with surveyor to see what work they do to verify accuracy of data they evaluate to establish the survey results.

 

[jsasker007]

Whenever I have purchased land I have always had it surveyed ASAP. Neighbors bitch every time. That's what neighbors do. Oh well. Today' accuracy is knats ass. Years ago they would basically agree on where the property lines were. Over time people had to have a problem(imagine that) with anything someone else owned. Now we get things surveyed by people that have the technology to give accurate results and file those results with the county and it becomes record. 165 or 156---does it matter?

 

[jsasker007]

Interesting thread, makes me want to learn more about surveying. Sad thing is I had to take a surveying course in college (dont remember a thing) and I'm a PM for a large contractor where Surveying accuracy is very important and errors occur more than they should but usually i task others with making sure we're covered. I feel like most of the errors we see are caused by different engineers using different plane references.

No satellite?