Oaks: Let's have a hard conversation

[SD51555]

"I've never seen it last this long"

You're saying the acorn drop is usually done by the 2nd week of September? These are burrs?

They're usually gone by September 1st. They start dropping in mid August and they're gone shortly after. Most years, I get too much moisture and the trees get anthracnose really badly and they don't produce. Last year was too dry, and they didn't do anything, but no anthracnose. This year has had ideal moisture the whole way, and the ground is still drinking it up. I've gotten good rain all the way, but my water holes are barely holding anything at all.

 

[Teeder]

Wow! My sawtooth oaks haven't even started dropping yet. Their supposed to be one of the earliest oaks.

 

[BuckSutherland]

At the moment I have 99% red oak acorns in my woods. I do have one mature burr that dropped a pile. It will be a couple years before all the other oaks that got planted start producing. The red oaks have been dropping for at least 2 weeks, but its a slow drop usually and there will still be plenty acorns leftover next spring. I have seen HEAVY bear use of red oak acorns in the snow about 3-5 miles from my land. I have 100s of young red oaks on my land ranging from 4 inches to 40 feet. More are producing every year. I've got beautiful little native reds coming all over the place. Im gonna tube a handful of them next year.

I also lease another 200 acre parcel about 6 miles away. That land has some mature burr oaks. About half of them seemed to produce this year. I have a tactacam aimed at one of them that was still holding a full crop as of 1 week ago.

 

[b116757]

I’m pretty sure SD is in zone 3. My native burs in zone 6 haven’t really started dropping yet except a potted bur oak tree I planted in my yard 15 years ago it drops smaller acorns and a bit earlier than the native large acorned bur oak trees do. My Chinkapin and DCO are still a week or two from dropping and they are about my earliest acorns here in zone 6 to start hitting the ground. I don’t have any sawtooth old enough to compare to them.

 

[Catscratch]

My DCO's drop first, then Chinkapins, then Burs and finally Reds/Pins. They all disappear quickly except the reds (which sometimes stay on the ground all winter).

I spend a lot of time trying to provide plots that fill voids in nature and ag for deer. My ultimate goal is to provide year round nutrition. I don't hunt my plots so season attraction isn't really all that important. But, a huge bounty of acorns full of fats and carbs right before the rut and winter is a good thing in my humble opinion.

 

[Tree Spud]

Funny, many profess to wanting to have year round food sources, but the minute an Oak tree doesn't fit a hunting schedule, or impacts a food plot ... out comes the chainsaw.

A mature oak tree producing acorns is of far greater long term value to my land and wildlife than any food plot I could plant. They take 20 years to get to nut producing age and will out live all of us. I read that acorns contain more energy than corn, two times the amount of carbohydrates, and up to 10 times the amount of fat, making acorns a tremendous food source for many wildlife species during fall and winter.

I would move or adapt a food plot before I would ever cut an oak tree down.

 

[b116757]

I love my oak trees but there are no absolute’s in anything we do on some properties cutting a few oaks growing in inopertune locations is a minor issue in the big scheme of things. I was crown releasing walnut and oak trees late last winter or early spring and had a 16” dbh oak growing under the crown of a 24” dbh pecan tree it hurt my soul a bit but that oak had to go. Pecan is not my favorite deer tree but they will eat them and I knew from previous years the pecan does produce nuts the oak was a wildcard on production.

 

[Foggy47]

I got perhaps thousands of Burr Oaks, and Red Oaks. None have been planted.....all are natural.....unless some of the White Oak acorns from southern MN that I stomped into the dirt have taken ahold ?? MOST of them will stay here as long as I manage this piece of dirt. A few have had to go as they hamper my efforts at my plots. They are well regarded here....just not sacred.

Few produce every year.....but enough produce to keep the deer, squirrels and critters happy. I got enough diversity to keep the oaks interesting.

 

[Native Hunter]

The only native oaks that drop very early (right now) on my land are chestnut oaks. These are not to be confused with the swamp chestnut oaks that I planted, which drop in November. The swamp chestnut oaks have highly preferred acorns. The regular chestnut oaks produce an acorn with higher tannins that deer will eat early but leave when other more desirable acorns in the white oak family start falling - usually later September into November. And, out of blind luck, the sawtooths that I planted are late dropping ones - mostly from mid October to early November.

One thing to keep in mind about oaks is what Dr. Craig Harper teaches - in a typical forest made up of various oaks, you could cut half of the oaks and end up with more acorns than you had before cutting. You would do this by identifying the top 50% and bottom 50% when it comes to acorn production - and cutting down the bottom half. The reason the acorn production would increase is because the crowns of the good producers would get more sunlight and produce even more acorns. The man knows what he is talking about.

 

[bwoods11]

I got perhaps thousands of Burr Oaks, and Red Oaks. None have been planted.....all are natural.....unless some of the White Oak acorns from southern MN that I stomped into the dirt have taken ahold ?? MOST of them will stay here as long as I manage this piece of dirt. A few have had to go as they hamper my efforts at my plots. They are well regarded here....just not sacred.

Few produce every year.....but enough produce to keep the deer, squirrels and critters happy. I got enough diversity to keep the oaks interesting.

Most properties that are partly wooded or bigger timber have oaks in Minnesota. Unless they were logged, or it’s a planted farm grove.

Even if oaks are already present, I feel like it’s a good idea to add more varieties along with apple trees. For the wildlife and your land values will benefit (in case you ever sell)!

 

[Tree Spud]

The only native oaks that drop very early (right now) on my land are chestnut oaks. These are not to be confused with the swamp chestnut oaks that I planted, which drop in November. The swamp chestnut oaks have highly preferred acorns. The regular chestnut oaks produce an acorn with higher tannins that deer will eat early but leave when other more desirable acorns in the white oak family start falling - usually later September into November. And, out of blind luck, the sawtooths that I planted are late dropping ones - mostly from mid October to early November.

One thing to keep in mind about oaks is what Dr. Craig Harper teaches - in a typical forest made up of various oaks, you could cut half of the oaks and end up with more acorns than you had before cutting. You would do this by identifying the top 50% and bottom 50% when it comes to acorn production - and cutting down the bottom half. The reason the acorn production would increase is because the crowns of the good producers would get more sunlight and produce even more acorns. The man knows what he is talking about.

Thinning is a good idea as oaks will develop a very wide crown if given the space. I have several oaks where 100s of seedlings have popped up. Would to try and transplant these seedlings as parent trees on your property that are successful are the best seedling/nut source. Just not sure how transplanting will go by having to cut the tap root?

 

[Teeder]

I only have a handful of native oaks on my hunting property, all northern reds. I've released around them and then tube any new ones that naturally come up, if they are in a good location for future survival.

 

[Native Hunter]

Thinning a good idea as oaks will develop a very wide crown if given the space. I have several oaks where 100s of seedlings have popped up. Would to try and transplant these seedlings as parent trees on your property that are successful are the best seedling/nut source. Just not sure how transplanting will go by having to cut the tap root?

Agreed. And transplanting when small will give the best chance for survival.

 

[b116757]

Agreed. And transplanting when small will give the best chance for survival.

Really with oaks your better off planting an acorn where you want the tree and not wasting time on transplanting at all ag least in my experience the acorn trees usually surpass the transplanted one in a year or two at most and that’s if the transplanted even survived at all.

 

[SD51555]

I had a good talk with a habitat guy that worked for South Dakota Game Fish and Parks a number of years back. He mentioned something very interesting to me. He'd mentioned planting red cedars as an improvement. I asked him, "Isn't red cedar a listed invasive in SD?" He said yes, but only when it's growing where it isn't wanted. Otherwise, we use it quite often in habitat projects.

My bur oaks have produced twice now in the 6 years I've been watching them. If you take out this year, they have produced once in 5 years. If we're focused on durable and reliable year round food, I don't think oak fits. It's more of a bonus forage when it happens.

Again, I'm not saying let's clear cut the oaks, but an abundance of oaks doesn't make a durable and reliable food source, especially because the abundance is during a period of overwhelming abundance in the late summer. I still release oaks when I'm out busting canopy, but that's it. I have been solely focused on growing durable natural food to get deer through the winter. That means browse, and browse requires sunlight.

Ultimately, I'm not going to cut down these oaks. The reason I say that, is that I'm fairly certain they'll not produce for a few years after this year anyway, so this new problem of bear trampling should go away when the acorns quit coming. Oak leaves are the best pre-emergent grass herbicide I've found, so I do like having them around for that.

 

[Catscratch]

SD, any chance your released oaks will start producing on a more regular basis? Or is it due to weather factors that it's so inconsistent?

 

[SD51555]

SD, any chance your released oaks will start producing on a more regular basis? Or is it due to weather factors that it's so inconsistent?

Possibly. A normal year is wet for me. The first 4 years I had the place it rained constantly and I thought all the bur oaks were gonna die because they had anthracnose so badly.

I’ve got a bunch of released bur oaks that are in that 6-20’ range. I’d think those taller ones ought to be producing pretty soon with the new sun allowance.


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[TreeDaddy]

The only native oaks that drop very early (right now) on my land are chestnut oaks. These are not to be confused with the swamp chestnut oaks that I planted, which drop in November. The swamp chestnut oaks have highly preferred acorns. The regular chestnut oaks produce an acorn with higher tannins that deer will eat early but leave when other more desirable acorns in the white oak family start falling - usually later September into November. And, out of blind luck, the sawtooths that I planted are late dropping ones - mostly from mid October to early November.

One thing to keep in mind about oaks is what Dr. Craig Harper teaches - in a typical forest made up of various oaks, you could cut half of the oaks and end up with more acorns than you had before cutting. You would do this by identifying the top 50% and bottom 50% when it comes to acorn production - and cutting down the bottom half. The reason the acorn production would increase is because the crowns of the good producers would get more sunlight and produce even more acorns. The man knows what he is talking about.

Not only forest stand improvement, but also excellent papers on old field management, NWSGs,herbicide primers, and foodplot recipes

bill

 

[Troubles Trees]

I had a good talk with a habitat guy that worked for South Dakota Game Fish and Parks a number of years back. He mentioned something very interesting to me. He'd mentioned planting red cedars as an improvement. I asked him, "Isn't red cedar a listed invasive in SD?" He said yes, but only when it's growing where it isn't wanted. Otherwise, we use it quite often in habitat projects.

My bur oaks have produced twice now in the 6 years I've been watching them. If you take out this year, they have produced once in 5 years. If we're focused on durable and reliable year round food, I don't think oak fits. It's more of a bonus forage when it happens.

Again, I'm not saying let's clear cut the oaks, but an abundance of oaks doesn't make a durable and reliable food source, especially because the abundance is during a period of overwhelming abundance in the late summer. I still release oaks when I'm out busting canopy, but that's it. I have been solely focused on growing durable natural food to get deer through the winter. That means browse, and browse requires sunlight.

Ultimately, I'm not going to cut down these oaks. The reason I say that, is that I'm fairly certain they'll not produce for a few years after this year anyway, so this new problem of bear trampling should go away when the acorns quit coming. Oak leaves are the best pre-emergent grass herbicide I've found, so I do like having them around for that.

I totally agree with everything you said there, I just think your lack of consistant acorn production is more of a diversity issue than anything, If you plant more diverse with reds and whites of different flavors in each group you would get more consistent food sources from them. If the only browse you had for deer was ROD then you would only have the bust and boom food source like your oaks if that makes sense bud.

 

[b116757]

Possibly. A normal year is wet for me. The first 4 years I had the place it rained constantly and I thought all the bur oaks were gonna die because they had anthracnose so badly.

I’ve got a bunch of released bur oaks that are in that 6-20’ range. I’d think those taller ones ought to be producing pretty soon with the new sun allowance.


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I would say my released oaks take about two to three years to respond with heavier acorn production this could be screwed by a mast year in there somewhere. There is always the genetic factor of individual trees that plays into it and weather also. It’s nice to have some historical data on acorn production from individual trees to know who is likely to respond best to release but this isn’t likely in many situations especially young trees there is no baseline. Also red oaks seem to need more time in general to start acorn production than whites oaks and this time difference is substantially maybe a decade longer in my experience at least.