Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Any reason you cant answer the question then? Where would you draw the line?
MN bills introduced to allow crossbows during archery season.
- Thread starter Wind Gypsy
- Start date
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Because these bills are likely supported by the same people who pushed legislation banning APRs without formal legislature approval. As if the legislature has a clue about how best to manage our deer herd..
Looks like it was introduced by a female Democrat. It figures
legiscan.com
Minnesota HF2716 | 2023-2024 | 93rd Legislature
Summary (2023-03-08) Age limitation for hunting with crossbow during regular archery seasons removed. [Introduction and first reading, referred to Environment and Natural Resources Finance and Policy]
bueller
Moderator
Not looking to rewrite the rule book. On topic, crossbows in bow season are fine. Rifles in bow season not fine. Low population decrease tag allotments. High population increase tag allotments. Trophy bucks will fall where they fall. Whether that's at the hands of someone who has all the gadgets and puts in all the time or the guy who walks in half drunk opening morning and shoots one sitting on a stump 10 minutes later. Really not much different than fishing if you think about it.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
If you think the MN DNR is introducing crossbows as a herd mgmt tool, that's a failed experiment at least in Wisconsin. We added crossbows in 2013. As you can see in the chart below, harvest rates have actually decreased.
They have also added extend bow hunting until mid January, special doe hunts in Dec, unlimited doe tags (I get 4 with my license), youth hunts, etc. None of this has improved harvest rates or herd mgmt.
The most effective harvest mgmt tool we had was EAB (Earn-a-Buck) where a hunter was required to shoot a doe in order to get a buck tag. EAB in Wisconsin was implemented in the late 90's and to mid 2000's. As you can see harvest levels went up significantly. more does were shot, and we lead the nation & P&Y and B&C records. EAB definitely improved the age structure of bucks.
Imagine that ... a program that met everyone's needs ... meat eaters, trophy hunters, DNR heard mgmt and reduction goals, and it was eliminated.
You won't improve herd mgmt or harvest rates by extending or adding seasons, or by choosing easier weapons, etc. You will only change by managing what hunters can harvest. Our DNR keeps complaining hunters will not do enough to reduce the herd in about 2/3's of the state, yet every program our DNR has implemented in last 14 years has failed to achieve their goals.
They have also added extend bow hunting until mid January, special doe hunts in Dec, unlimited doe tags (I get 4 with my license), youth hunts, etc. None of this has improved harvest rates or herd mgmt.
The most effective harvest mgmt tool we had was EAB (Earn-a-Buck) where a hunter was required to shoot a doe in order to get a buck tag. EAB in Wisconsin was implemented in the late 90's and to mid 2000's. As you can see harvest levels went up significantly. more does were shot, and we lead the nation & P&Y and B&C records. EAB definitely improved the age structure of bucks.
Imagine that ... a program that met everyone's needs ... meat eaters, trophy hunters, DNR heard mgmt and reduction goals, and it was eliminated.
You won't improve herd mgmt or harvest rates by extending or adding seasons, or by choosing easier weapons, etc. You will only change by managing what hunters can harvest. Our DNR keeps complaining hunters will not do enough to reduce the herd in about 2/3's of the state, yet every program our DNR has implemented in last 14 years has failed to achieve their goals.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
Do you have data to show archery harvest pre 2013 to current? Particularly bucks to does?
While I agree that EAB is the best management practice for herd health and stability, with how WI registers deer in the state currently, I believe it would be full of abuse.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Overall Buck harvest has slightly increased since 2013 and total archery + crossbow buck harvest combined has been higher every year than it was during the last year without crossbows. Success rates would help paint the picture as well but I've just looked at what's here: https://dnr.wi.gov/wideermetrics/DeerStats.aspx
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
They are on the DNRs website, I just haven't pulled those up. I agree that the online registration is prone to scamming.
Brian662
5 year old buck +
That is an alarming increase in cumulative archery harvest post crossbow introduction.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
As overall harvest #'s have gone down, it has just shifted dates of kill.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Looks like overall buck harvest has been slightly up and total buck and doe is slighly down since xbows.
bueller
Moderator
Wisconsin published a 141 page study on this topic in 2019. Link below summarizes much of it.
www.bowhunting.com
Are Crossbows to Blame for the Deer Hunting Decline?
Crossbows have been at the forefront of controversy for years now, but are crossbows to blame for the deer hunting decline across the country?
www.bowhunting.com
Brian662
5 year old buck +
Total harvest has been just about flat since '09, maybe down a few thousand on average, at least that's how it looks to me. Gun harvest has dropped and the crossbow harvest has increased, if they've cancelled each other out (as it seems), that means more people in the woods during archery season (as you just stated).
I'll state my position again as a resident of MN. Increasing the number of archers in the state due to a weapon that clearly makes it easier to kill game with, when there is already a season with rifles - during a time when deer are most vulnerable, is doubling down on bad management for folks who care about the age class of deer.
I am one of those people, and consequently oppose this proposal.
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
If the DNR knew what they were doing there would be antler restrictions to protect younger bucks. Don't let hunters shoot baby bucks. jmo
Brian662
5 year old buck +
From what I understand, APR is often a "high grading" in terms of high scoring deer. It certainly helps advance age class of young(er) bucks with less points. The theory is that stud 1.5 or 2.5 year olds will have the minimum points to be shot, limiting P&Y or B&C potential.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
How dramatically do you feel adding crossbows in bow season changes things in your state?
Our season is already 3 months long and it is too much, they claim it gives more people more opportunity to hunt but I don't see where people need 3 months to get in the woods. As you have said before, bow and muzzleloader are considered primitive weapons, but really these days they aren't, to me carrying a recurve bow and a traditional patch and roundball is primitive. Compounds these days have rangefinder sights, 80% letoff etc. and aren't primitive and neither are inline muzzleloaders but I do use both. Our Muzzleloader season is after gun season so here in Liberal NY, these people in charge are idiots lol they certainly don't care about the deer herd or anyone that owns and carries a gun.
Adding crossbows didn't add many new hunters, it mostly moved people from using a compound bow season to using a crossbow and the people it did add were old people that gave up bow hunting (I assume because they weren't comfortable with a compound anymore) and kids but the data doesn't determine if they wouldn't have started with a compound if crossbows weren't an option.
Maybe I didn't word it correctly so let me ask you this. You don't hunt with a recurve because you would have less overall success right? For the same reason you don't hunt with aluminum arrows and a compound from the 80's that was less accurate, slow and noisy, deer jump string, it is a thing. Deer that jump string are more likely to be wounded, deer are also more likely to get wounded if you hunted with a recurve. So you don't hunt with these other things because you don't have to practice as much, you can confidently shoot further and overall you are more accurate which means you wound less deer right? Can we agree if everyone had to hunt with a recurve there would be more wounded deer which equals less deer in the woods? That was the point I was trying to convey. If people are more comfortable with a crossbow, (like you are more comfortable with, and more accurate with a compound than you are with a recurve).
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
Not really as dramatic as it looks, look at the scale on the left, it only goes to 40,000 and the bow numbers dropped significantly on a scale of 80,000, not sure why the would change the scale between the bow and crossbow graphs unless they were trying to visualize a point. The overall deer harvests stayed roughly the same during bow season but does increase some, not sure why they wouldn't post a graph for just bow season with both combined which would be easier to see the data.
If you average the 5 years prior to crossbow (to exclude the major drop) you get 344,000 average if you go 7 years it averages 384,000. The average after crossbows is 319,000 with the 9 years of data they provide.
Most of this conversation depends on your deer herd and what the goals are, unfortunately not many states care about healthy deer numbers for the herds sake or buck to doe ratio's or age structure.
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Brian662
5 year old buck +
This just isn't accurate. Don't be distracted by the scales, be distracted by the sum of the two numbers.
In the seven years pre-crossbow, 2007-2013, the antlered buck harvest with a bow averaged 41,105 per year.
In the nine years since crossbow introduction, 2014-2022, the antlered harvest between compound and crossbows is 54,077. That's a 32% increase in antlered bucks taken during "archery" season. That is an enormous increase.
Furthermore, in the past three years, let's call them the covid years, 2020-2022, the combined harvest during "archery" season averages 60,560 antlered deer taken. This is a 48% increase since pre-crossbow. Incredibly alarming, there really is no other way to describe it.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
True, I was just going to do the math on bow season since they don't provide it. Covid definitely got more people in the woods so I wish there was a way to determine that but it's not that big of a deal.
I edited my post after I did the math on total harvests so you probably didn't see it. For total harvests, if you average the 5 years prior to crossbow (to exclude the major drop) you get 344,000 average if you go all 7 years they provide it averages 384,000. The average after crossbows is 319,000 with the 9 years of data they provide so there are still less deer being taken overall including Covid years. You beat me to mathing the bow season lol Again, I have no idea what the states goals for harvests are, do you know if they are they above or below target?
Brian662
5 year old buck +
You edited 10 minutes after I posted, so no, I didn't see it.
The overwhelming point that myself and other MN residents are trying to make is that crossbows DEFINITELY increase archery success (which is totally fine) in a state where it is already extremely easy to fill tag(s) with an early Nov rifle/shotgun season, 16 day muzzle loader season, etc.
So, clearly increasing the amount of hunters and success during archery season isn't necessary and will further impact the quality of hunting. Give the crossbow boys a week of their own time between gun and muzzle loader and call it good.