MN bills introduced to allow crossbows during archery season.

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Applications opened for big game in NV today. I have been applying for elk, mule deer, antelope, and sheep the prior 6 years. With 6 points, i have less than 1% odds on the easiest to draw elk tag that doesn't force me to hunt in August. 2 and 3 years ago i had 2-3x BETTER odds of drawing the tag than I expect I will this year with more points. Hunter recruitment certainly doesn't seem to be a problem there.

I have 16 years invested in Utah. I’m still realistically another couple years away from one of the upper end archery elk hunts. For me that’s a once in a lifetime tag. I want hunter numbers to tank

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Apps like OnX and the popularity of YouTube channels showing how to OTC hunt are definitely the culprit of people seeing more hunters on public land. I wasn't hunting public land 5 years ago until I started seeing people like The Hunting Public.

I don't think the numbers lie because no matter how you look at them, whether it is by self reports or by license sales, the number of hunters are trending down. What is probably happening is that the people that are hunting are probably doing it more, at least in part to things like xbows or extended firearm seasons. Anecdotally, I know of several people who are hunting more now because of advancements in xbows or muzzleloaders. These same people used to only hunt opening weekend of the firearm season.

Exactly why I'm opposed to continually expanding things.

 

[Barndog56]

I started using a crossbow as soon as Wisconsin allowed them for all. The first crossbow I had was a Barnett. The noise level was so loud, and trigger pull was so heavy it cost me a couple of deer that I have no doubt I would have killed with my compound. I've since upgraded to a Killer Instinct, which is light years better, even if it isn't a Ravin or Mission.

It is definitely easier to use and more accurate, but I limit myself to 30 yards, just as with a compound. So it has not changed my harvest levels any. In fact, two years ago I could have taken a second doe with a compound, as she stood and watched the first one run 20 yards and collapsed. Could have gotten off a second shot with a compound, but trying to cock my crossbow scared her off.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Exactly why I'm opposed to continually expanding things.

As a counter point, these people I am referring to would not still be purchasing an archery tag if it wasn't for having a xbow. That is extra revenue our state conservation departments can use to put towards developing public access hunting areas or hiring more agents for enforcing wildlife laws. Currently, most conservation departments are getting about 60-80% of their funding from hunting and fishing license sales.

Complaining about other people using all of our public land is like sitting in a traffic jam complaining and about traffic. In this case, your car is the traffic and at least part of the problem, and most people (myself included) don't think about things in those terms.

I think we should be fighting against policies that are low hanging fruit that don't necessarily help with hunter recruitment, but still hurt hunting quality. First to come to mind is MN firearm season right during peak rut. People are going to hunt opening weekend of firearm season regardless if it is the first weekend in November or like neighboring Wisconsin's in late November. I think a bigger crisis than hunting quality is the reduction or elimination of hunting opportunities all together. Who is going to speak out about improving hunting quality if there are dramatically fewer hunters? Obviously there is a huge disconnect between what people are experiencing (increase in hunting on public land/velocity of sales in private recreational land) and whether or not a hunting recruitment crisis exists. If we can't agree that the later exists, none of the other discussions are going to go anywhere, and frankly won't matter anyways.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Here is the video I mentioned in an earlier comment that demonstrates that crossbows don't necessarily mean an increased accurate range. I think it demonstrates pretty well that even if you can accurately shoot a 3 inch group at 60 yards, that doesn't mean a lethal hit in the vitals at 45-50 yards of an alert deer.

In fairness to crossbow opponents, this test was with a slightly slower crossbow at 315 fps. Newer crossbows can quite a bit faster, theoretically extending the range. Here is a follow-up video going more into modern crossbows.

By the way, I hunt with a typical compound and will until I can't anymore, if that's important for someone to understand where I am coming from.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Here is the video I mentioned in an earlier comment that demonstrates that crossbows don't necessarily mean an increased accurate range. I think it demonstrates pretty well that even if you can accurately shoot a 3 inch group at 60 yards, that doesn't mean a lethal hit in the vitals at 45-50 yards of an alert deer.

But it doesn’t eliminate the fact it’s a single shot short(ish) range “gun” essentially. You don’t have to stand or draw which inherently increases the odds of success exponentially. I always operated under the assumption that archery and muzzleloader seasons were designed to give people extra time to hunt relatively unmolested deer for the trade-off of a greater challenge. With crossbows and modern in-line muzzleloader’s we have basically eliminated that barrier.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

But it doesn’t eliminate the fact it’s a single shot short(ish) range “gun” essentially. You don’t have to stand or draw which inherently increases the odds of success exponentially. I always operated under the assumption that archery and muzzleloader seasons were designed to give people extra time to hunt relatively unmolested deer for the trade-off of a greater challenge. With crossbows and modern in-line muzzleloader’s we have basically eliminated that barrier.

I think this is a really good point and worth mentioning. I was commenting more so about lethal range of crossbows not necessarily increasing from compounds. But it looks like your point about the usability of crossbows partially rings true with what limited data is available:

The Facts About Crossbows in the Deer Woods | National Deer Association

deerassociation.com

relevant quotes:
> "Few states measure weapon-specific success rates. States that did showed higher success rates for crossbow users than vertical-bow users."

but...

• "Most states haven’t determined if the addition of crossbows had any influence on their states’ overall deer license sales.
• Crossbows did not cause any change in total deer harvest.
• The addition of crossbows did not have any measurable biological impact on the states’ deer herds.
• In the states that measured deer wounding and/or hit rates, there was little difference between vertical-bow and crossbow users."

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I think this is a really good point and worth mentioning. I was commenting more so about lethal range of crossbows not necessarily increasing from compounds. But it looks like your point about the usability of crossbows partially rings true with what limited data is available:

The Facts About Crossbows in the Deer Woods | National Deer Association

deerassociation.com

relevant quotes:
> "Few states measure weapon-specific success rates. States that did showed higher success rates for crossbow users than vertical-bow users."

but...

• "Most states haven’t determined if the addition of crossbows had any influence on their states’ overall deer license sales.
• Crossbows did not cause any change in total deer harvest.
• The addition of crossbows did not have any measurable biological impact on the states’ deer herds.
• In the states that measured deer wounding and/or hit rates, there was little difference between vertical-bow and crossbow users."

And I think all those are very valid points. And if I may be 100% transparent it is a selfish reasons for me to oppose things like crossbows, in-line muzzleloader’s, extended gun seasons and so on. I want more bucks to live to maturity. It’s a numbers game, if there are more hunters on the landscape during traditionally less pressured times than there is a greater chance less bucks will reach maturity.
And…I do believe in the belief some things should be “earned”. The idea of lowering the bar so everyone wins doesn’t sit well with me

 

[Wind Gypsy]

More people hunting during archery season kills and educates more bucks before rifle season too. So it’s not just bow hunters negatively impacted. To argue that a more effective weapon doesn’t result in more deer killed is not intuitive.

 

[bueller]

Common theme in this thread from those opposing crossbows is that anything potentially making hunting easier for others will in turn make their pursuit of big bucks more difficult.

Doesn't that mean that anything potentially making hunting more difficult for others would in turn make their pursuit of big bucks easier.

Pretty ironic don't ya think, good for me but not for thee

 

[sandbur]

I bought my 9 year old son a Ravin crossbow to use during Wisconsin's archery season. Within 5 minutes of practicing with that crossbow he was shooting tighter groups at 40 yards than I've ever shot with my vertical bow. It was crazy to see how accurate those crossbows are. I have no doubt they could shoot tight groups out to 100 yards, but we wouldn't shoot that far since the deer can jump the string pretty easily with crossbows.

Having said that, I still hope they don't allow crossbows during the archery season in MN. Our area of SE MN allows multiple bucks to be shot per year, so allowing crossbows will definitely increase the buck kill.

We will end up with crossbows during archery season sooner or later. I am against it but view it as inevitable.

My prediction is that lots of crossbows will be sold and firearms hunters will be bowhunting for 2-3 years. Then many will give up and just firearms hunt as before.

I have used a crossbow for about ten years and have shot one bolt at one deer. Due to where I bow hunt and where I rifle hunt in a different area, I much prefer the rifle hunt. I don’t know why I even buy a bow license. I just like to be in the woods in late October and early November.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Common theme in this thread from those opposing crossbows is that anything potentially making hunting easier for others will in turn make their pursuit of big bucks more difficult.

Doesn't that mean that anything potentially making hunting more difficult for others would in turn make their pursuit of big bucks easier.

Pretty ironic don't ya think, good for me but not for thee

Right, because none of “thee” would enjoy seeing more and older bucks while hunting. With that logic, why not go rifle season sept-December or longer to make sure we’re not infringing on “thee” with any restrictions?

Is hunting for any deer in Iowa more difficult than MN because it’s actually managed for quality? Sure doesn’t seem like it.

 

[buckdeer1]

I wish I could remember what state it was but they came out and said their harvest rate had gone up due to crossbows.Most states don't know how many deer are harvested anyway.It sure looked like NM changed their laws that crossbows only allowed open sights like ML in their state.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

As a counter point, these people I am referring to would not still be purchasing an archery tag if it wasn't for having a xbow. That is extra revenue our state conservation departments can use to put towards developing public access hunting areas or hiring more agents for enforcing wildlife laws. Currently, most conservation departments are getting about 60-80% of their funding from hunting and fishing license sales.

We don’t pull as much weight in MN. I think FY’21 there was about $100 mil in hunting/fishing licenses and fees + $30 mil associated federal funds from Pittman-Robertson and Dingle-Johnson on a DNR budget of around $650 mil. So about 20% if you include fed fund contributions that are at an all time high, 15% if you don’t. Our DNR has a boat load of funding sources compared to other states.

 

[bueller]

Right, because none of “thee” would enjoy seeing more and older bucks while hunting. With that logic, why not go rifle season sept-December or longer to make sure we’re not infringing on “thee” with any restrictions?

Is hunting for any deer in Iowa more difficult than MN because it’s actually managed for quality? Sure doesn’t seem like it.

Apples and oranges. Iowa and the western states mentioned in this thread control access to hunting through limited tag allotment, especially out of staters. MN does not. WI does not. Inclusion or exclusion of crossbows is not the tipping point. APR's and limited doe tags could really change the herd in a positive way across the board but with CWD those days are long gone.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Apples and oranges. Iowa and the western states mentioned in this thread control access to hunting through limited tag allotment, especially out of staters. MN does not. WI does not. Inclusion or exclusion of crossbows is not the tipping point. APR's and limited doe tags could really change the herd in a positive way across the board but with CWD those days are long gone.

Are all the resident hunters of IA just selfish trophy hunters? Do the regulations they've chosen result in a better hunting experience for casual meat hunters?

Nobody is saying crossbows are the tipping point that I recall. I've noted in this thread i'm not convinced it'll significantly move the needle across the state. I've even stated that in many parts of MN focusing on quality management is probably misguided as there are other factors that are much more limiting on the resource. If we're already past the tipping point in MN, why keep going further in that direction? IMO just because MN will never be IA due to zero buck tag caps and rifle hunting during peak rut doesn't mean we should just say eff it and keep making it easier to kill what bucks we do have.

If your belief is that crossbows in archery season wont result in more bucks killed, tougher archery season hunting due to pressure and more deer killed, and lower quality rifle hunts due to fewer bucks remaining alive and reduced daytime movement due to pressure prior to season, OK. Maybe you are right. If you do believe those are possible outcomes, I'd say it's Ironic that you are painting the people who's quality of hunt could be degraded as selfish rather than the ones pushing for the new opportunity that causes the lower hunt quality for everyone else. Crossbows would be "good for me but not for thee".

 

[Troubles Trees]

Right, because none of “thee” would enjoy seeing more and older bucks while hunting.

You are only seeing deer hunting through your eyes and feel it should apply to everyone. You do understand that many hunters just want to fill the freezer and don't share your opinion about mature bucks and antlers bud, probably the majority of hunters depending on the State/area.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

You are only seeing deer hunting through your eyes and feel it should apply to everyone. You do understand that many hunters just want to fill the freezer and don't share your opinion about mature bucks and antlers bud, probably the majority of hunters depending on the State/area.

I call BS. You think i'm only concerned about trophies and you're concocting false alternatives that we're not constrained to.

So the people who just want to fill the freezer wouldn't enjoy having more bucks around to do so? Do the many hunters in Iowa who just want to fill the freezer not benefit from the ease in doing so there?

Can you not see hunting through the eyes of the guy who only hunts opening rifle weekend to fill the freezer but has less opportunities to do so if deer got shot or pressured off the property before rifle season by crossbow hunters?

 

[Troubles Trees]

It does seem like the same folks that oppose crossbows simply want less people in the woods and keep the meat hunters corralled into gun season. While simultaneously arguing that crossbows are easier to use, require less practice and more accurate which results in less wounded deer (more bucks) and people tagging out quicker (less people in the woods).

Can we at least agree that guns use bullets propelled by gunpowder, bows/crossbows propel arrows/bolts with a string, I am not sure how people keep stretching a crossbow into the gun category. They don't have to draw their crossbow when a deer presents a shot, has everyone not heard of Draw-Loc? Maybe you should just be an advocate for a law that requires people using crossbows to have to draw when a deer comes in? You don't have to stand to shoot a crossbow, you can't shoot your compound bow sitting? Crossbows can shoot 100 yards accurately, have you ever actually tried it? Because the crosshairs on my xbow would completely cover the whole deer let alone a pie plate at 100 yards so there is no realistic shooting at that distance. Do you know people with no arms can regularly hit cheezits at 100 yards with a compound bow? Don't be lazy and practice and you can increase your range to 100 yards (sarcasm sorry!). Last I heard (and it has been awhile since I looked) an arrow drops less downrange than a bolt does because bolts are heavier and less aerodynamic. wouldn't that mean compounds shoot more accurately at long distances?

Again sorry if this comes off as pointed or angry, it isn't meant that way. I feel everyone should be allowed to use whatever suites them best and most importantly harvests a deer in a quick and humane manner. If you don't like crossbows, don't buy one.

My inspirational video of the day :)

 

[Troubles Trees]

So the people who just want to fill the freezer wouldn't enjoy having more bucks around to do so? Do the many hunters in Iowa who just want to fill the freezer not benefit from the ease of doing so?

Do old bucks taste better? I always felt older deer were more gamey and tougher so I would answer no, they want a 1 1/2 year old spike in the freezer.