MN bills introduced to allow crossbows during archery season.

[Angus 1895]

Are you using the crossbow because it's more challenging than the compound?

I hunt with both. I used to only hunt recurve.

I am disabled from preg checking cattle.

But in Montana crossbows are not allowed.

also hunting off mules the compound is easier to haul/ hunt off of.

I have actually harvested more with a recurve……..but that takes way more practice.

something my wrist doesn’t appreciate.

but yeah I been thumping critters with pointy sticks for 40years.

if u count bow fishing been doing it over 45

 

[Mtyhunter]

The challenge some of my friends have is that deer are jumping the string beyond 40 yards, even with crossbow speeds.

agreed. my compound clocks at 280, xbow at 315. Have shot both at 80 yds to see how they do, and they're both surprisingly accurate enough to get the kill shot. Idk about the kinetic energy left at those distances, and I know I could look it up, but it's not necessary. String jump (and sometimes wind) dictates my max distances. For the record, I've found my compound is just as accurate as my crossbow at these distances. The xbow seems to be way more finicky about the nock alignment, and has more fliers.
Have you ever tried to shoot a deer at a weird angle while in a hangon stand? It's not easy to shoot accurately, scope or not. Only use my xbow when in a blind with a rest.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The argument against crossbows in bow seasons, for me, is the ease at which you can kill a deer. No standing for a shot, no drawing back, very little practice required, heck you can put one in those little holder things and a monkey could shoot a deer with one. All that’s fine and dandy for rifle season but there should be some barrier of entry for bow season.

 

[Angus 1895]

^^^^^^^^^^^
agreed not much Witchery of Archery with a cross bow. They absolutely are boring to shoot a lot with.

 

[Tree Spud]

I used to practice before archery season with my compound and get at least 400 pulls on the bow target shooting between 15-30 yards.

With my crossbow, I walk out back and take 3 shots at 40 yards and put 3 in a 4"group. My 1st deer with my crossbow was at 45 yards and a heart shot.

Big difference when pulling back on a bow at 67 lbs and holding for 1-2 minutes than putting the crossbow on a rest and pulling a trigger.

I am not against them, and I wish they were not in the archery season, they just are not a bow.

 

[Troubles Trees]

my email to the committee members where the house bill was introduced:

to rep.heather.edelson, rep.jeff.brand, rep.john.burkel, rep.dawn.gillman, rep.josh.heintzeman, rep.roger.skraba, rep.samantha.vang, rep.peter.fischer, rep.sydney.jordan, rep.isaac.schultz, rep.rick.hansen, rep.kristi.pursell, rep.leigh.finke, rep.steven.jacob, rep.fue.lee, rep.dave.lislegard

Environmental and Natural Resources Finance and Policy Committee Members,

I’m writing in regards to HF2716 pertaining to making crossbows a legal weapon for all during archery hunting seasons. Currently anyone 60+ or with an injury or physical disability is allowed to use crossbows during this season. Archery seasons were created as a primitive weapon season with reduced efficacy compared to firearm season. Modern crossbows are not remotely primitive and are extremely effective weapons. We already have archery, firearm, and modern muzzleloader seasons. There is ample if not excessive opportunity for anyone who wants to hunt deer already.
Minnesota currently has a less balanced deer herd and lower quality deer hunting experience than every neighboring state. White-tailed deer have a natural life span often well exceeding 10 years old. On my land in Kanabec county I estimate that less than 10% of the bucks live to see 3 years old because the majority of them are killed as juveniles the first year they grow antlers at 1.5 years old. Most of them that survive to see a second set of antlers are killed at 2.5 years old. This is largely due to the hunting season structure in MN. Congress and the DNR share the blame for this. Congress limits the DNRs ability to manage for buck:doe ratio or age class balance and the resulting hunting regulations continue to make it harder and harder for bucks to live to maturity.
The deer population is controlled by the doe population. In areas where a population decrease is desired, we need to find ways to incentivize harvest of the does rather than further hammer the bucks.
Improving technology in regards to equipment, weapons, digital mapping, information, access, cameras, etc paired with the ever increasing season opportunity is too much. It is detrimental to our wildlife and the quality of our outdoor experiences. I oppose HF 2716.

Very well said bud! All very good valid points.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

The challenge some of my friends have is that deer are jumping the string beyond 40 yards, even with crossbow speeds.

Grant woods had a video comparing animal reaction times at various distances for both compound and crossbows. It is by far the best video I've seen on it. I think the most conservative reaction time and crossbow range where the deer would drop enough for the bolt to miss the vitals was around 45 yards. I can't recommend that video enough.

They are definitely more accurate and faster, but I think people are unaware just how fast a deer can respond.

 

[Catscratch]

Personal experience with crossbow is that it added zero range over my compound, has about the same amount of movement to shoot (I shoot compound from a sitting position and have it upright between my knees while waiting. Very little movement to get drawn. Pretty much the same as picking up my crossbow from my lap and shouldering it.), and needs about the same amount of practice to be ready for season. With either one I pull it out of the case and shoot it a couple of days before season and am ready to hunt. Now for the spin; I can take my compound out and be on target in a few shots even after a couple of months off... because I spent the last 30 yrs shooting a ton. The crossbow can do the same but it didn't take any practice to get there. I would imagine that to the new hunter a compound would seem exceedingly frustrating to learn if you had something else available that wasn't hard. Now for the next spin... I think it's ok for something to be hard or difficult for a kid. Not everything should be easy.

 

[356]

Grant woods had a video comparing animal reaction times at various distances for both compound and crossbows. It is by far the best video I've seen on it. I think the most conservative reaction time and crossbow range where the deer would drop enough for the bolt to miss the vitals was around 45 yards. I can't recommend that video enough.

They are definitely more accurate and faster, but I think people are unaware just how fast a deer can respond.

I personally can not imagine taking a shot over 40 yards with a crossbow for this very reason. Last September we tested several Mathews crossbows at 40 and 50 yards and experienced "flyers" with fixed and expanding broad-heads. Up to 30 yards these bows were nail drivers. At 40 and 50 yards we had some flyers resulting in lost bolts. These were units set up by Mathews (sorry, I didn't look at the brand of broad-heads) for use with first time hunters.

Back at home, I had similar experiences with my Mathews compound bow and Wicked Ridge crossbow--the longer the distance, the higher the possibly of a flyer. As a hunter, it is my responsibly to practice and tune my equipment (which I do). It is that practice that keeps me from taking longer shots.

Thirty yards was the maximum distance mentors were allowing hunters attempt. As for the string jump, there is really no such thing as a "silent" crossbow. The deer will generally react. While I share a concern about hunters who unethically think 60, 70 and 80 yard shots are possible, those hunters are more likely to be found on the internet than in the field.

There are good arguments on both sides of this issue...I hope Minnesota's elected officials take the time to listen to the hunters, not just the lobbyists.

 

[Troubles Trees]

They are really fighting crossbows in Iowa too .. it would be much more impactful to the buck quality in Iowa than Minnesota.

Like Minnesota, Iowa has too many seasons and long seasons. The one HUGE plus they have is no gun seasons in November.

The way the bucks rut in November in Iowa, it would be a big step back if the range went to 80 + yards. Plus much easier to shoot a Xbow out of a blind !

It’s a big battle . Ravin crossbows is a lobbying power. It’s all about money .

I don't disagree with that, NY deer season from start to finish is September 27th until just before Christmas. Pretty much 3 months of no sleeping in for me lol

I don't know about the range issue, I know crossbows advertise shooting out to 100 yards, I have seen the commercials, but have you ever tried? Personally I am comfortable at 40 yards with a compound and 50 yards with a crossbow with a rest. The average person that buys a crossbow has a scope similar to what I would put on my .22, it is actually lesser than regarding clarity and zoom, so trying to shoot 100 yards isn't even realistic unless you buy a better scope, the crosshairs cover the whole deer as they do on my out of the box crossbow.

Both compounds and xbows have obvious advantages over recurves and the way technology has evolved. Rangefinder sights at the push of a button would be a game changer if I could afford it lol I don't think anyone would argue that, it comes down to personal preference. I was always impressed with the guy with no arms (only uses his feet) that shoots cheezits at 100 yards in an outdoor setting, very inspirational to see someone overcome the crappy hand life dealt them. I am not even sure I could pull it off if I took the time so he clearly has some talent.

 

[SD51555]

Can someone explain what a flyer is? I've seen that a few times now, and I'm not up to snuff on it.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Can someone explain what a flyer is? I've seen that a few times now, and I'm not up to snuff on it.

It is when you have 4 tight arrows/bolts and the 5th one misses the whole target without a "I know I yanked the trigger" kind of reason. I used to get flyer's when I used Razorback 5's for broadheads to show my age lol My bow back then sucked so I am not sure if it was the bow or the arrows.

 

[jsasker007]

The faster the bow shoots the easier it is to have tuning issues.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

It is when you have 4 tight arrows/bolts and the 5th one misses the whole target without a "I know I yanked the trigger" kind of reason. I used to get flyer's when I used Razorback 5's for broadheads to show my age lol My bow back then sucked so I am not sure if it was the bow or the arrows.

I think it is generally the arrows. I had some fliers and began marking my arrows to confirm it was something in the setup. Eventually started spin testing bare shafts and then nock tuned them to get them more accurate.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Interesting. You believe that the ballistic coefficient of the bolts is enough to overcome the huge velocity/energy/momentum advantage? Never considered that. Honestly I don't know what the capabilities are, just seen people showing 100 yard videos in crossbow marketing videos.

To be fair, truly accomplished archers can shoot a compounds into impressively small groups at 100 yards and i'd guarantee i could shoot a compound better freehand than a crossbow. The edge for crossbows is #1 - not having to draw, and #2 with a rest, it's basically the same skillset as shooting a rifle - takes no skill building.

I bought my 9 year old son a Ravin crossbow to use during Wisconsin's archery season. Within 5 minutes of practicing with that crossbow he was shooting tighter groups at 40 yards than I've ever shot with my vertical bow. It was crazy to see how accurate those crossbows are. I have no doubt they could shoot tight groups out to 100 yards, but we wouldn't shoot that far since the deer can jump the string pretty easily with crossbows.

Having said that, I still hope they don't allow crossbows during the archery season in MN. Our area of SE MN allows multiple bucks to be shot per year, so allowing crossbows will definitely increase the buck kill.

 

[bueller]

Always shoot your bolts with broadheads before the season. I sight in out to 45 yards. Out of six new bolts I typically have 2-3 that group together and another 2-3 that group together but 6 inches away from the first group. I mark each bolt and only carry a "grouping set" in my quiver once zeroed in. Flyers shoot consistent but not in either group.

 

[PatinPA]

I think it is generally the arrows. I had some fliers and began marking my arrows to confirm it was something in the setup. Eventually started spin testing bare shafts and then nock tuned them to get them more accurate.

Every pack of broadheads I have ever bought has one that just doesn't fly right no matter what I do. Same with arrows.

 

[Mtyhunter]

I think it is generally the arrows. I had some fliers and began marking my arrows to confirm it was something in the setup. Eventually started spin testing bare shafts and then nock tuned them to get them more accurate.

Ya, been marking my arrows for all my bows for years. Always have the best shooter loaded up for that first shot. Always tested my shooters with broadheads before hunting. Have noticed flier issues with certain broadheads. Used magnus broadheads for years, and they don't all weigh the same. A little filing takes care of that problem, and after aligning the broadhead with the shaft, fliers go away. Always purchased quality arrows and bolts, so haven't been able to pin down issues with shafts. Biggest problem i've noticed that causes fliers is the nock on a crossbow bolt. If that suckers off center even the slightest amount, it causes a bad flight. Had to resort to a little hot glue to keeps the nocks perfect once I got them perfect. It's aggravating, but, that's the nature of the beast. You have to put in work to make things work like you want.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Applications opened for big game in NV today. I have been applying for elk, mule deer, antelope, and sheep the prior 6 years. With 6 points, i have less than 1% odds on the easiest to draw elk tag that doesn't force me to hunt in August. 2 and 3 years ago i had 2-3x BETTER odds of drawing the tag than I expect I will this year with more points. Hunter recruitment certainly doesn't seem to be a problem there.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

Applications opened for big game in NV today. I have been applying for elk, mule deer, antelope, and sheep the prior 6 years. With 6 points, i have less than 1% odds on the easiest to draw elk tag that doesn't force me to hunt in August. 2 and 3 years ago i had 2-3x BETTER odds of drawing the tag than I expect I will this year with more points. Hunter recruitment certainly doesn't seem to be a problem there.

Apps like OnX and the popularity of YouTube channels showing how to OTC hunt are definitely the culprit of people seeing more hunters on public land. I wasn't hunting public land 5 years ago until I started seeing people like The Hunting Public.

I don't think the numbers lie because no matter how you look at them, whether it is by self reports or by license sales, the number of hunters are trending down. What is probably happening is that the people that are hunting are probably doing it more, at least in part to things like xbows or extended firearm seasons. Anecdotally, I know of several people who are hunting more now because of advancements in xbows or muzzleloaders. These same people used to only hunt opening weekend of the firearm season.