Long term perennial mix

[Rally1148]

Hey all,

So I've gotten my native prairie in, and fingers crossed it'll take off. I've gotten my native prairie forb seeds, and I'll be broadcasting those this weekend. Again, fingers crossed, they'll do alright.
The green is the native prairie, and the white is what I'm planting into perennials, that I'll broadcast some brassicas/turnips/peas/grains into in the fall to add some winter attraction. I know I won't have the best % by doing this, but it's as low maintenance as I could think of. Now My goal is to get the deer to travel through the white portion, rather than the green, so hopefully it'll work!
I'll be seeding this in late summer (late August), and planting with a brassica peas and cereal cover/nurse crop. I'd probably go over in the spring and lightly overseed with the same mix.

Looking at the welter catalog I'm thinking of a white clover, sanfoin, small burnet, chicory, and birdsfoot trefoil. The total white area is about 0.5 acres. I'm thinking the mix would be something like this 'A screaming comes across the sky. It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now. Clovers 2lb Kura clover, 0.5lb Ladino, 1lb Kopu II, 0.5lb Alice (and maybe 0.5 Jumbo II Ladino) Trefoil- 5lb Norceen BFT. Chicory- 2lb forage feast, 2 lb oasis. Sanfoin- 5lb, Burnet- 3lb Dellar Small Burnet (from Kesters)

Thoughts on this mix?

 

[Rally1148]

Don't waste time (and money) on sainfoin unless your ph is close to 7. It also isn't a long lived perennial, even in neutral ph soils. I also wouldn't waste time and money on Kura unless you grow it in a monoculture. Just my $.02

I know Kura is harder to establish, but I figured that the other clovers would help prevent other weeds while it gets established. As for the sainfoin, I'd read that it did better on more acidic soils, but I didn't really have my heart set on it at all. I just figured I give it a try, but I know my soil isn't even close to 7, so I'll scrap it.

So I'll add half a pound of Jumbo II ladino instead of the kura, and then up the Alice and regular ladino up to a pound. So total, 1lb kopu II, 1lb Ladino, 1lb Alice, 0.5 JumboII ladino.

Any thoughts on the mixed height of this? Do you think that the burnet and BFT will be a bit too much shade for the clovers?

 

[wiscwhip]

That mix would be ok, but for a truly perennial plot, Kura clover and falcata alfalfa can be planted together and will last almost indefinitely with minimal maintenance. You could throw in the burnet and BFT as well. Keep in mind that all of the above mentioned plants are very slow to establish and will likely not do much the first year or even 2, and may require additional overseeding to get the desired stand density. You will also want to plant this(the Kura and falcata at least) into good to great soil with near neutral ph to get it to establish well and thrive for the long term.

 

[Rally1148]

I've had burnet and various clovers mixed in plots before and there's no shading issues. I've planted BFT on sand before and it did very poorly, no experience with it on better soils...but I can't imagine it would have any shading impact. BFT could be overly aggressive though and choke out your other (more desirable) varieties.

Thanks! I'll just use 1lb BFT, or even cut it out of the mix. No sense in adding something else that might take over.

 

[West Branch]

I like the ladino and alice white clovers, the BFT, and chicory. I have never seed the other seeds planted before but I have read about them and they seem like a some decent choices if your conditions are right for them. The only other thing I would think about adding is medium red clover.

Do you know if the deer already like BFT? Like Stu says it can be aggressive and once it is there it will be there to stay. Maybe go a bit lighter with it in favor of the clover?

 

[Rally1148]

That mix would be ok, but for a truly perennial plot, Kura clover and falcata alfalfa can be planted together and will last almost indefinitely with minimal maintenance. You could throw in the burnet and BFT as well. Keep in mind that all of the above mentioned plants are very slow to establish and will likely not do much the first year or even 2, and may require additional overseeding to get the desired stand density. You will also want to plant this(the Kura and falcata at least) into good to great soil with near neutral ph to get it to establish well and thrive for the long term.

Would kura do alright at a lower pH (6ish)? I figured that I should be overseeding every few (2-4) years just to maintain.

 

[Rally1148]

I like the ladino and alice white clovers, the BFT, and chicory. I have never seed the other seeds planted before but I have read about them and they seem like a some decent choices if your conditions are right for them. The only other thing I would think about adding is medium red clover.

Do you know if the deer already like BFT? Like Stu says it can be aggressive and once it is there it will be there to stay. Maybe go a bit lighter with it in favor of the clover?

Nope, I've just heard good things about it! Burnet I know has some alright drought tolerance, and this is the best soil I've got, but it can still get pretty dry.

 

[wiscwhip]

I agree with stu in that you shouldn't have shading issues with the burnet or BFT. I see BTF growing amongst regular Dutch white clover(the short stuff) all the time and they do very well together. IMO, chicory isn't necessarily all that long term. I have never seen it persist more than 3 or 4 years unless you get profuse seed production, but that was in mixed pasture swards with much more aggressive clovers and grasses, so it may do alright if you keep the grasses under control by spraying?

 

[wiscwhip]

Too funny...I was just looking at Wind River Seed for some falcata seed

I have a few other sources than Wind River for falcata on my PC at home, I can try to pull them up tonight when I get home if you would like to check with them as well. My brother uses many seed mixes from Wind River for reclamation of areas at the mine he works for.

 

[Rally1148]

That mix would be ok, but for a truly perennial plot, Kura clover and falcata alfalfa can be planted together and will last almost indefinitely with minimal maintenance. You could throw in the burnet and BFT as well. Keep in mind that all of the above mentioned plants are very slow to establish and will likely not do much the first year or even 2, and may require additional overseeding to get the desired stand density. You will also want to plant this(the Kura and falcata at least) into good to great soil with near neutral ph to get it to establish well and thrive for the long term.

So I'd be alright if I do rye and red clovers this fall as the nurse crop since they'll come up in the spring, right?

My biggest thing is that I don't really want to do much as far as tractor work past this year. I don'y have a tractor, and to ask my neighbor to hook up to the disk, sprayer, rototiller etc... is pretty time heavy. If I get this set up, and only have to do that every 5-10 years (assuming that I overseed every few years with the same mix) I'll be happy.

I agree with stu in that you shouldn't have shading issues with the burnet or BFT. I see BTF growing amongst regular Dutch white clover(the short stuff) all the time and they do very well together. IMO, chicory isn't necessarily all that long term. I have never seen it persist more than 3 or 4 years unless you get profuse seed production, but that was in mixed pasture swards with much more aggressive clovers and grasses, so it may do alright if you keep the grasses under control by spraying?

The reason for the chicory was to add some more drought resistance, and some additional green when the clovers go dormant mid summer. Again, I'll be overseeding/frost seeding every 2-4 years.

As for spraying for grasses, it's possible. And I could most likely swing it during establishment.

Burnet will grow in very sandy, acidic soil. It also will grow in "good" soil. I planted it in both conditions on my old place and my folks' old place. On my old place (great silt loam) it got around 20-30" tall with large blooms/seed heads, on my folks' (terrible sand) it got maybe 12-15" with much smaller blooms/seed heads.

That's one of the reasons I wanted to add it. Along with that was the drought tolerance and the fact that it stays green in the winter. Overall I had the clover for fall and spring, the chicory for the summer, and the burnet for all year.

 

[wiscwhip]

Tastes a bit like it if you munch a leaf as well.;)

 

[Rally1148]

Tastes a bit like it if you munch a leaf as well.;)

^^^just wait til you mow that burnet :D Smells like fresh cut cucumbers

You guys are getting me excited to plant!

 

[Rally1148]

Personally, I think small burnet is an underused plant by 'plotters. Especially those guys who have to deal with less than ideal soil.

That's what I collected. The only negatives I could see were the relative high seed price, and the slower establishment. For me, I think it'll be great if I get this whole thing to work out!

 

[Rally1148]

Something like this seems like it'd be perfect for me to drill a row or two of brassicas, and then later peas. I might try it with rye, and even WGF sorghum to add some structure. Oh the possibilities!

 

[wiscwhip]

I really like small burnet as well. We only had it establish well one time in our north plot, but then the old man wanted to plow it up for soybeans that lasted 3 weeks before they were hammered to the dirt. We had it in some mixes a few other times as well, but not in enough of a concentration to really get itself going. It seemed like it reeeeeallyyyy took a long time to get going on the beach sand, even on the plot where it grew well.

 

[wiscwhip]

Something like this seems like it'd be perfect for me to drill a row or two of brassicas, and then later peas. I might try it with rye, and even WGF sorghum to add some structure. Oh the possibilities!

Very similar to the Earthway we have.

 

[Rally1148]

I really like small burnet as well. We only had it establish well one time in our north plot, but then the old man wanted to plow it up for soybeans that lasted 3 weeks before they were hammered to the dirt. We had it in some mixes a few other times as well, but not in enough of a concentration to really get itself going. It seemed like it reeeeeallyyyy took a long time to get going on the beach sand, even on the plot where it grew well.

They say up to 3 years. Which is fine, since I'll be using a bunch of different stuff. I figure by planting with rye and red clover, the white clover will have time to come up and get some establishment next spring. Next fall, I'll overseed with the same mix of red clover and rye, which will again allow the white clover to get established. So 2 years of nurse crops getting the white clover up, then the white clover will be the nurse crop for the burnet.

 

[Rally1148]

Very similar to the Earthway we have.

I saw that one as well. Do you think that it would be able to drill into a stand of clover? I.e. it'd be able to exert enough force to get into the ground? I liked the fact that I could put in a bit of fertilizer with this. I suppose if I'm doing this into a clover plot, the clover residue might provide enough. I really like that I'll be able to drill at three different times. July for brassicas and WGF, September for Peas and Rye. Otherwise if I plant brassicas in September, they're tiny with no bulbs, but if I plant rye and peas in July, the rye gets too tall and corse.

How do you guys think that nurse crop plan will work?

 

[wiscwhip]

I saw that one as well. Do you think that it would be able to drill into a stand of clover? I.e. it'd be able to exert enough force to get into the ground? I liked the fact that I could put in a bit of fertilizer with this. I suppose if I'm doing this into a clover plot, the clover residue might provide enough. I really like that I'll be able to drill at three different times. July for brassicas and WGF, September for Peas and Rye. Otherwise if I plant brassicas in September, they're tiny with no bulbs, but if I plant rye and peas in July, the rye gets too tall and corse.

How do you guys think that nurse crop plan will work?

No way will those planters cut into anything. You must have a fully prepared(disced or tilled) and smooth(dragged or cultipacked) seedbed, or they will not work well at all.

 

[wiscwhip]

As for the nurse crop, 2 years might be overkill. Just plant it as you originally planned, and then overseed just the plants that you seem to be lacking as the plot matures. If it is sparse on burnet, add more. Need some more chicory, throw some down. 2 years of red clover and you might just have a red clover plot, it can be very aggressive on good soils in the right conditions.