Is it time to quit with perennial clover?

[SD51555]

Before you grab the tar and feathers, hear me out...

I've learned a few things over the years, and one of the most important things, is the idea that I don't have the right answer in my set of options to choose from at the moment. I've spent years trying to figure out how to make things grow with dutch white clover. I played with everything from seeding rates, timings, seed varieties, magic mowers, strategic mineral manipulations, hydrology modification, etc. I still haven't gotten white clover to play nicely once it controls a neighborhood. (Not willing to go down path of tractor/drill)

What if the answer has always been to get rid of the common problem, get rid of the clover?

I've got my nursery plot going, and I didn't put any white clover out there. I don't want it to morph into my other plots that are dominated by white clover, that also contain things trying to muscle out a spot among it. So I left it out. I still have legumes in there, but more controllable (all but the hairy vetch anyway). It'll be interesting to see how this goes this spring.

Can i still hit all my objectives without white clover? I think I may be able to do just that, and still keep true to all my other big values.

This blend is:

Legume: Hairy vetch, yellow sweet clover, fixation balansa, alfalfa, trefoil
Grasses: Rye, japanese millet
Broadleaves: Chicory, plantain, buckwheat, sunflower, phascelia
Brassica: Collards

I plan to throw a bag of rye right away in spring as the snow is melting, throw another bag of rye when i mow in August. I'll also whip up a blower hopper of topoff stuff for spring and late summer of flax, japanese millet, collards, and fixation.

 

[SD51555]

I'm really warming up to the idea of spending a few dollars each year to top up the lesser legumes so that my broadleaves and rye can always have a space to grow.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Broadleaves: Chicory, plantain, buckwheat, sunflower, phascelia

When you say "plantain" - are you talking what most folks would consider a WEED?? Heck - they grow on their own around my neighborhood!!
Can alfalfa actually get established in a mix like that?? I though alfalfa needed lots of sun and space to get going, or maybe along with red clover as a companion.

 

[bigboreblr]

Where did you get the plantain. English I am assuming, not common. That stuff is tough. Worked well for me in the snowmobile trail which sees atv traffic here n there.

 

[SD51555]

When you say "plantain" - are you talking what most folks would consider a WEED?? Heck - they grow on their own around my neighborhood!!
Can alfalfa actually get established in a mix like that?? I though alfalfa needed lots of sun and space to get going, or maybe along with red clover as a companion.

On alfalfa, I'm not sure. I've never had a great stand of alfalfa. I know it always seems to lose out to the most powerful stuff. So that's why I've been talking about pulling aggressive things out of the plots, like hairy vetch and white clover. My hope is that by taking out the clover, there may be more room for the alfalfa.

I bought plantain from green cover seed. I'm not certain if there was more variety name to it or not. It's the upright stripey looking plant in the red circle here. Definitely not the same plantain we all see in the lawn and driveway. This seems to be more productive and have a narrower leaf. And the deer demolished all of it in early October.

 

[SD51555]

Where did you get the plantain. English I am assuming, not common. That stuff is tough. Worked well for me in the snowmobile trail which sees atv traffic here n there.

Now that I look, it may have been Boston:

Plantain (Boston)

Plantain is a low-growing forb that, like chicory, is high in minerals. It also contains a natural antibiotic compound that helps reduce infections and also modifies rumen fermentation to improve animal performance, similar to an ionophore like Rumensin. It grows very well on compacted soils and...

store.greencover.com

 

[bigboreblr]

That is english plantain. Got plenty in my plot..

Lawn driveway is common. I seed both up north at camp.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I bought plantain from green cover seed. I'm not certain if there was more variety name to it or not. It's the upright stripey looking plant in the red circle here. Definitely not the same plantain we all see in the lawn and driveway. This seems to be more productive and have a narrower leaf. And the deer demolished all of it in early October.

How long does your plantain last?? Does it over-winter?? When do you plant it - fall or spring?? How much in a mixed plot??

Today's the first time I heard / read of plantain as a forage crop - so I'm all kinds of interested!!!

 

[SD51555]

How long does your plantain last?? Does it over-winter?? When do you plant it - fall or spring?? How much in a mixed plot??

Today's the first time I heard / read of plantain as a forage crop - so I'm all kinds of interested!!!

Don’t know yet.
Yes.
I planted mine 8 weeks before frost.
I think I did 1-2lbs/ac in my blend.

I’ll go back and dig up the light bulb picture and post it here…. Give me a second to find it.


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[SD51555]

This is that pic. This was taken around 10/15. I’d have never known what I had if I never had the cage and the idea to look in mid October.

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[Telemark]

If it doesn't fit your objectives, then by all means get rid of it. I like having perennial clover plots, but my situation is probably different from yours. I generally disagree with the "everyone should do this" mentality. So if your clover isn't helping your objectives, get rid of.it and plant something else. If I lived closer to my hunting property I would almost definitely plant less clover and leave more room for annuals.

 

[homerj]

What if the answer has always been to get rid of the common problem, get rid of the clover?

What was the question?

 

[SD51555]

What was the question?

How to get other things to grow with clover. So far, clover has killed most everything I've tried to introduce.

 

[homerj]

How to get other things to grow with clover. So far, clover has killed most everything I've tried to introduce.

And you want those other things to grow why?

 

[SD51555]

And you want those other things to grow why?

Clover alone sucks. It's a second rate forage, and if it doesn't allow some partners, it's gonna get choked off by grasses we can't control.

 

[Mortenson]

Would be interesting to know how long a deer would stand in the buffet vs the clover alone. Another minute or 3 before moving on? Clover plots here get destroyed. Kinda not letting great be the enemy of good scenario.

 

[Telemark]

Maybe spray half the plot, plant your ideal mix, and use exclusion cages to compare.

 

[jsasker007]

Clover and chicory do very well together where I'm at.

 

[bigboreblr]

Up in the adinrondacks, clover is used by deer, but not as well loved as it is by my home. I got 2 guesses here, like humans we enjoy what were used to. Deep woods deer enjoy woody browse. So they eat that more. Secondly, I think certain soils effect palitability. The better my soil gets, the more the deer enjoy it. We talk about N P K, but I noticed if you add some borax soap, they like the clover more that year. However, boron toxicity is very low. I add about 2.5 lbs of borax per acre every time I redo my foodplot every 3 years. I do only 1 lb per acre up north. Soil is predominately sandy, so it cant hold much nutrients.

Too much clover for your fall plots to switch. Easy fix. 2 weeks before you plant, mow. Then before you plant, spray a light dose of roundup. IT'll stunt the clover and give your fall annuals time to grow.

A pass or two of light discing would likely disturb the clover good too.

Want to get rid of perennial white clover, keep mowing it. Clover doesn't live too long, it keeps getting renewed with seed.

I like medium red clover, but gave up on it at home. I believe medium red clover is much less prolific seeder. You can make red clover disappear in 2 years with frequent mowing.

I bounch between wanting to get rid of the plantain and keeping it. Think hard before you add it. Its tough as nails. You'll likely have to kill everything more than once in a season to get rido f plantain.

I've been at my current home for 5 years. I sprayed roundup about 3-5 times. Plantain been in my yard before the plot, and will be there after it. MY guess is you have to apply 2,4D and roundup twice to get rid of it. I've never played with triclopyr in grassy area before, but that might be a good option.

I maintain a snowmobile trail and my clubs cabin and lawn area. That is the only spot I put it. Anything I take care of should take care of whats living there. I think it's about the most perfect thing to plant and handle vehicle traffic on it. One county over, many snowmobile trails are ATV trails. My trail is not, but the 10-15 yard wide trail gets adbout 6 or so ATV runs a week on it. The time the club members are on there, it gets alot more.

IF I wasn't focused on deer hunting and just wanted maintained short but fallow and edible land, that's what I would do.

What I would love to see as a seed blend will never happen...... Most states consider this stuff noxious weeds. Plantain, dandelion, crabgrass, various vetches, and clover. Crabgrass is commercially available. One day last year I thought the rabbits were in my tree cages. They actually were chomping down on the crab grass.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Seems reasonable to cut it out if you're planting annuals in the same location every year.

Curious on reasoning for hairy vetch and yellow sweet clover in the mix?

And no Triticale?