IWA and MDDI

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I would simply like to see data and an honest discussion about where we are, what issues we need to address and how we collectively need to get to what is agreed to as being environmentally responsible. Yes - the DNR needs to makes those decisions, but it shouldn't be a political issue.

Is it asking too much to want the DNR to manage the natural resources of the state based on data and scientific principles while being forthcoming and accountable with ALL share-holders?
 
Has anyone ever asked their dnr instead of just fighting and bashing them?
 
Yup..a good number of times. I'd much rather get some straight answers based on facts and science than get smoke blown up my a$$. I specifically asked Marrett Grund (one of our head DNR muckety mucks) if the reason for managing for so few deer had/has anything to do with CWD. He stated that CWD has nothing to do with decision making regarding deer in all but one or two tiny parts of the state.
I'd imagine they are not straight forward because it would become a public relations disaster just like it became in the original Cwd zone in southern wi.
The dnr is really in a loose loose situation, and this disaster isn't their fault. The crappy thing is we won't know the right management approach until decades from now.
 
I do think this may be the case. It is less of a "conspiracy" theory than $$$ from big ag and the ethanol industry influencing politicians who then influence DNRs.

Like sandbur...I'd be less critical if DNRs would be upfront/honest.

If this is true, then DNRs are walking a very fine line. If they suppress the herd so much that hunters quit hunting, the herd could grow exponentially and then DNRs would have to find a way to get those hunters back.
They won't need the "hunters" back, a federal judge just protected some of the most efficient deer killers on the landscape, and open season for those hunters is any time they choose to kill.
 
I agree stu, it won't work everywhere, but it gives the DNR's an excuse to lower the kill numbers for the deer hunters because population control would only be needed in certain areas(more heavily populated), no deer would need to be killed in the northern areas or other places that were primarily forested, such as the Central Forest Zone once they get the numbers of deer down low enough that the wolf packs can keep them under control. You get the population down to 5 DPSM like Steve and dipper are talking about, even with a 1-4 buck/doe ratio, you would at most put 12 fawns back on the landscape each spring, and that would be provided all 4 does had triplets which is highly, highly unlikely. Even a small wolf pack would have no problem keeping those numbers in check and then some. They could essentially close deer hunting in those areas and just concentrate on killing 100,000-130,000 deer in the more populated areas. Scary, and I don't think it would be impossible for them to pull off if the cards were laid properly.
 
You mean like the "red wolf" in the southeast(NC). Certain scientists can't even agree that this is still even a legitimate genetically pure DNA species or are all just coyote-red wolf crossbreeds, yet they are Federally protected.
 
I know IN doesn't have the natural predators (protected or otherwise) to come even close to grossly reducing the deer numbers alone. IF our DNR is worried about CWD and the like I wish they would simply tell us and simply try to communicate what we are up against. This is our battle as well.

I am less likely to commit to the fight - if I don't know what the hell I'm fighting for!

IF our DNR is simply being influenced by outside $ and the political game and not doing their true job of protecting the best interest of the public's deer herd then my fellow Hoosiers and I are screwed. Not sure how long it will take, but if this is true, I fear IN will follow in the foot steps of MN.
 
First post here, so I'd like to set the record straight on a few things. I've been involved with IWA since day one. I'll be more than happy to answer questions.

First off... let's take names out of this. If you guys have a beef with certain individuals, I'm not here to debate that. What we're trying to do with IWA is not about any one individual.

I'll tackle a few things from the top...

IWA was formed about one year ago. We had some ideas for better deer management, as we knew current practices weren't working. We didn't set out to create an organization. But shortly after we started, we thought that would be a good way to get support for our ideas. We formed a FB page maybe 6 weeks later. We never asked for "support" on specific ideas before we told people what the ideas were. We told people what we stood for (better deer management from IDNR)... and that we'd be making the "official proposal" available after we'd presented it to the IDNR. We were pressured to not go "public" with it until IDNR had a chance to review it. IDNR director Marc Miller basically threatened to shut off communication with the small group if we didn't go to them first. I got numerous phone calls from IDNR brass (including Miller) that said all talks were off if we put out our press release before we met with them. We had to wait till they agreed to meet with us, and we waited for several weeks for them to find the time. No big conspiracy there (on our part, anyway)... we just got hosed by the administration on the timing. And we took some bad advice from lawmakers who had promised to support us. It just so happens that the IL Deer Classic was that same week we finally met with IDNR, and when our release went out. IDNR put us off enough so we'd have to "release" our proposal on a weekend (bad news days) and the public wouldn't hear our ideas until after the big deer show in Springfield... which would take pressure off IDNR staff working the show.

We did initially propose a one-buck limit. This was changed just a few months after the original proposal came out... and was a result of the polarity it caused with hunters, and we had time to think through some better alternatives. The one-buck limit was never the main point of the proposal... but that's all people talk about. The very first point was to reduce doe harvest, and we outlined several ways to do just that. The one-buck limit was proposed so that during the time that does were being limited, hunters wouldn't just switch to killing more bucks. It was only meant to be a temporary fix while doe harvest was limited. Our proposal still calls for a one-buck and one-doe limit in counties that are significantly below their population goal. Our "biologist" wrote an article that made sense on why you would want to limit buck harvest while you're limiting doe harvest. Is there an issue with using population models to get that point across? Anyway... this wasn't a way to ask the state to manage for "inches"... nor was it a way to force trophy hunting on everyone. It was a way for everyone to share a little bit of responsibility for shooting fewer deer... period.

The point that gets missed in a lot of this is the piles and piles of data I have that shows how poorly IDNR is managing the deer herd. Ignoring their own data to keep taking areas down 50% or more. Using the Joint Task Force to keep killing deer... but then blatently (and unlawfully) changing the rules when it suits them. I think the key is the whole "14% reduction target." Most hunters would have been satisfied with a 14% reduction from peak deer population levels in their area. And most would have been fine if some counties may have been targeted for a little more... and some a little less. But the way the math works out... the average county reduction target was well over 25%, with many counties being targeted for 35%+. That's where hunters were outright lied to, and even members of the JTF had no clue what IDNR biologists were pulling. Now... couple that with a few years of EHD, and the deer herd took a beating. And our IDNR did nothing. The survey results on EHD are alarming, at how many deer went unreported. IDNR will never admit to that. They had all the facts in front of them... yet they refused to back off on the number of permits they issues. We had to go through 2 years of EHD... and now 2 years of low harvest numbers before they made some token changes that STILL didn't make a difference. The permits they cut were permits that had never been sold... and they still issued way more permits in the counties they removed from the late-winter doe season.

Our proposal may not be perfect, but it's a start. We probably won't get every part of the proposal passed... ever... but there's a lot of good point in it that will work if we could someone in Springfield with the guts to make some changes. It's clear that what IDNR is doing isn't working.

Feel free to ask questions. It may take me time to reply, but I'll do my best. You can also email me at pyscorer@gmail.com if you want to contact me directly.

Kevin Chapman
IWA President
 
Kevin - who is the boogeyman? We have not positively ID'd him here in MN. Who is ultimately behind the deer herd reduction?
 
Could it be the same group that put together the wolves back on the endangered list?
 
Ultimately....we, the deer hunters of this country are behind the reduction

201 copies of the audit that sits on the desk of the OLA ready to seal stamp and mail. Every elected in MN is getting one.

If our DNR and elected don't step up and make some changes, we deer hunters will need to find a better way to share that sentiment.
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Nice Brooks, NICE!!!
 
That may be the "plan" for much of northern and central MN and WI and the UP of MI...but there's no way wolves will ever effectively deal with deer numbers in IA, IL, OH, IN etc. Their presence will simply not be tolerated in areas with good numbers of people. Once the rich folks with big, wooded lots in Middleton, WI lose Fluffy or Mr. Whiskers to the big, bad wolf...there will be changes coming.

Funny that you bring up Middleton, WI. I was born and raised in Middleton lol. We actually had a wolf get hit by a car about 10-15 years ago by the Culvers. I remember it was big news and everybody was worried about there dogs getting attacked and killed. I know about 4 years ago a bear was spotted in the million dollar house sub-division and everybody was freaking out about it. You are correct that if dogs are killed, things will change quickly.
 
Do you need some help addressing all that stuff Brooks??

Awesome.
 
my daughter is having fun with me on it - unless you are bored and want to swing over.
 
Welcome aboard Kevin Chapman! I enjoy reading your articles. I have read many of them, back to long before the declining herd and the IWA.

MDDI guys ... you can see you already have a much better start than the IWA because you understand that it is the hunters working together is what it will take to see changes.

Kevin, if you can make some time, I highly recommend you read through the topic titled "MDDI" here on this forum. The situation in MN is an example of how bad it can get, and then what it will take to make changes. I truly believe these guys are going to get something done! Other states suffering from declining herds might then look at MN as a model. Here is a link to that topic:

http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/mddi.75/
 
Kevin - who is the boogeyman? We have not positively ID'd him here in MN. Who is ultimately behind the deer herd reduction?

Yes, hunters are pulling the trigger... but its the IDNR who is responsible for managing our resource for hunting, in addition to all the stakeholders who want all the deer dead. Since 1991, in the infamous "I Took a Doe So The Herd Won't Grow" days... Paul Shelton has never seen a doe he didn't want killed. The IDNR pounded the overpopulation theory into everyone's heads. Ask any non-hunter... and they will probably tell you that there are way overpopulated. The IL deer herd was already headed downward when IDNR managed to pull off the Joint Task Force. They lined the committee with people who knew very little about how deer are/should be managed. They pulled the wool over everyone's eyes and got a license to kill more deer. They came up with the deer-vehicle accident metric to measure their success. But they never really told anyone that they were going to take way more deer than just a 14% reduction. Shelton's boss knew it... they admitted it to us in a meeting. Yet Director Miller, and all the biologists kept blaming the big, bad JTF for wanting more deer killed. It wasn't until EHD hit and hunters started seeing WAY less deer in the woods... and we started digging into their formulas to measure DVA's and reduce the herd. IDNR hadn't really told anyone the real truth to their reduction program. They hadn't updated anyone on where the DVA rates were. They just kept killing more and more deer. We hit our STATEWIDE reduction in 2012. And their foot was still on the gas. Hunters started complaining, and they kept their foot on the gas for another year. They waited until they had DVA data in the summer of 2014 before they took ANY action. And the action they did take, was less than underwhelming. The biologists are still making quotes in newspapers that the lower harvest numbers are NOT because of low deer herds, but rather bad weather keeping hunters at home on the couch. They still blame the JTF for their reduction goals, yet never mention all the counties that are below goal. They don't mention that the statewide goal was reached before EHD hit... and we've been under goal for 2 years. In the midst of removing counties from the LWS, they never ONCE actually used the words "growing the herd" or "increasing the population" in those areas. Actually... you can't GROW the population if you never pull back on the number of permits you sell to keep killing deer. The herd peaked over a decade ago, and we're still selling tend of thousands more deer permits (about 70,000 more) to kill 50,000 fewer deer! That's insane!!! We're beyond "maintenance... we should be talking about growing the herd in some areas, but you can't find a single IDNR official who will admit there's a problem ANYWHERE in the state.

The big eye opener for me was looking at actual numbers county by county. Pike County, for example, is a joke. The crown jewel of whitetail hunting in the world, and IDNR manages it based on freaking nuisance permits. Pike was targeted for something like a 36% herd reduction. They hit that 4 years ago. IDNR never backed off the slaughter. They went over 40%... no backing off. They're currently at a 46% reduction in the DVA rate, and IDNR refuses to back off yet. Pike County still had the late-winter season (LWS) and they are issuing thousands of permits for does to be killed outside the normal hunting season through nuisance permits. The JTF resolution specifically called for counties to be removed from the LWS when they reached their population goal. IDNR ignores any part of the JTF resolution that suits them. They claim that Pike County alone gets about 1/4 of the total STATEWIDE number of nuisance permits. Heck, the JTF also called for a committee to be formed, under IDNR control, to look into the nuisance permit system... and again, IDNR ignored that part of what lawmakers TOLD them to do. So... that goose that layed the golden egg in Pike County is getting kicked in the head by IDNR biologists over and over again. IDNR claims that they are bound by the constraints of the JTF resolution, yet they don't care when they break the law to ignore other parts of it. When we asked what the "goal" was for Pike County, IDNR biologists wouldn't answer us. They don't know. "We'll pull back when the number of nuisance permit requests become manageable." We asked, "what is that number?" They don't know.I think they stated that they issue over 100 permits... which all are good to kill 10 deer each. But they have no goal on what that number should be. And they sure aren't managing Pike County on DVA rates, like they are required by law to do. If so, Pike County would have come out of the LWS 4 years ago. If a 46% reduction in the deer herd doesn't even trigger the slightest bit of change... how much will? A 75% reduction? Nobody has the answer to that question... not even the biologists who are responsible for managing one of the best deer hunting areas in the world. It's sad, really.

So yes, hunters are still to blame for pulling the trigger over and over, but it's IDNR's job to apply the brakes every now and then. They need to be on OUR side every now and then. They can't manage to the absolute bare minimum number of deer in the the state. They have to ADMIT when they went too far, and be upfront with everyone when they need to raise herd levels back up. It's frustrating to hear people actually ask politicians to "let the biologists manage the herd." Well... the biologists in IL have absolutely no connection with hunters, or managing the herd for hunting. It's not politicians calling the IDNR director every day asking for more deer to be killed... it's our biologists who are still trapped in their 1991 mentality of trying to slow down herd growth, when we should be looking for ways to grow the herd back. They spend more time trying to discredit groups like IWA, and making us out to be the bad guys by saying we're a bunch of trophy-hunting elitests who only want the maximum carrying capacity.

Brooks and I have exchanged emails a few times since we started. He copies me on a lot of his emails that he sends out. A lot of what's going on in both states are similar. I think it will be important for us to keep in touch, and let each other know what works and what doesn't work. As each state makes progress, we can use the success of each organization to help move the other one forward.
 
Welcome aboard Kevin Chapman! I enjoy reading your articles. I have read many of them, back to long before the declining herd and the IWA.

MDDI guys ... you can see you already have a much better start than the IWA because you understand that it is the hunters working together is what it will take to see changes.

Kevin, if you can make some time, I highly recommend you read through the topic titled "MDDI" here on this forum. The situation in MN is an example of how bad it can get, and then what it will take to make changes. I truly believe these guys are going to get something done! Other states suffering from declining herds might then look at MN as a model. Here is a link to that topic:

http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/mddi.75/
Thanks TMIL. Lots of pages to read there, and Brooks has sent me a lot of info.
 
As you all might guess, Kevin is our: passionate, motivated, present-the-facts-that-can't-be-argued-with, guy in IL, much like Brooks in MN. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for that Kevin!

I truly hope you do more than IWA damage control here. Stick around and read up if you can. What brought me here was the passion and knowledge possessed by the core members. I started out on the QDMA Forum as I desired to learn about the deeper aspects of deer habitat management (owning my property for more than 10 years I'm well beyond falling for the hype of the latest buck on the bag seed mix). All of a sudden, the best sources of information disappeared from the QDMA site. I finally figured out where they all went (here) and then only later learned how they were compltely abandonded by the organization they hoped would help them in their plight.
 
Indeed, we must organize the hunters. I'm still hopeful that can be done in IL. I think it might be working in MN for you guys.
 
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