It passed!

[MN Slick]

Slick, do you know Jason? Can we get some info out of him?

I don't know him but do have contact info for him. They are doing what MN needs to do.....manage based on scientific information. I'll reach out to him and see if he can provide some detail on their scientific method.

 

[Bill]

Congratulations!

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I suggested Keith McCaffrey to Brooks when we were talking this AM. The more I think about it, the more I like that idea. He is very well respected, played a critical role in designing WI's system and and is no BS guy. He has always been a bigger fan of lower deer numbers and hates the idea of private deer management, but I think that'd do nothing more than give more credibility to his suggestions, and I'd bet everything I own that his suggestion will be a science and data based approach to setting harvest goals and for estimating deer population numbers. If I understood Brooks correctly, this stage is all about pointing out the good, bad and ugly about the "system" currently being used and suggesting improvements to that system. Though Keith's loathing of high deer numbers, private deer management and QDM in general, along with being a key in designing WI's system, would lend credibility to his suggestions/findings, they wouldn't directly influence the setting of population goals...This is all about trying to define the process, correct?

 

[bat man]

would lend credibility to his suggestions/findings, they wouldn't directly influence the setting of population goals...This is all about trying to define the process, correct?

That is the scope I would propose. Fix the baseline data manipulation and tie whatever goal setting process we use to real metrics. Then the wind rain corn lazy hunter PR from our DNR can no longer fly.

 

[foggy]

I'd just like a return to using science to manage our deer herd. Paying scientists to manage our deer herd via sociology doesn't make any sense to me.

^^^ I wish I could "like" this a dozen times. It makes NO sense to have scientists run a program based on social management criteria. Duh!! And our DNR has fallen to this level.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I'd just like a return to using science to manage our deer herd.

That'd sure be my first goal. When using science to determine numbers, it's harder to fabricate the findings.

 

[Riggsgwp->]

I'd just like a return to using science to manage our deer herd. Paying scientists to manage our deer herd via sociology doesn't make any sense to me.

It has to start with this but the social aspects will never go away especially during the stakeholder process. We need a system as Brooks has said to track and deal with the hotspot issues that farmer, forester and drivers will inevitably complain about. Having the tools to address their complaints will keep them from blanketing large areas with doe permits and thus disarm them in the stakeholder process.
Also more "deer" money will need to be allocated to ensure the scientific herd monitoring tools are never again put on the back burner.

 

[sandbur]

They most certainly did.

It will be worth the effort to get MDHA on board and if they struggle then rouge forces can wake up and help out. They have made a swing as the info finally hit home and some lights went on. We can help them move forward. They can help us move forward.

Spoke with their lobbyist yesterday and the attention we have garnished makes it much easier to have conversation with those who have influence. Makes issues hard to ignore.

Things change. We sure did run into opposition at the Brainerd Regional meeting.

 

[sandbur]

Realize the scope of this audit as its currently sits is related to the herd monitoring techniques and the effectiveness of the model. The hope is an audit will discover weaknesses in herd monitoring and data collection with suggestions for more science based data collection that will allow our DNR to effectively model the herd. Collecting this data would add a level of accountability in regards to where we are at according to 'goal'. Collecting this data would go a long ways towards legitimizing our goal setting process as it would be tied to a set of numbers or metrics versus our new social perception system.

Brooks-Didn't the audit as we had a written include an evaluation of the use of the deer hunter's license dollar? We need to keep that in there and the DNR needs to review the books.

 

[sandbur]

It has to start with this but the social aspects will never go away especially during the stakeholder process. We need a system as Brooks has said to track and deal with the hotspot issues that farmer, forester and drivers will inevitably complain about. Having the tools to address their complaints will keep them from blanketing large areas with doe permits and thus disarm them in the stakeholder process.
Also more "deer" money will need to be allocated to ensure the scientific herd monitoring tools are never again put on the back burner.

I have an idea for this that needs some suggestions.

I am going to add it to the MDDI thread as it is not part of the audit as such.

 

[bat man]

Brooks-Didn't the audit as we had a written include an evaluation of the use of the deer hunter's license dollar? We need to keep that in there and the DNR needs to review the books.

The scope of the audit is not finalized. That is why our input is timely and important. But we are not the outside consultant who will be making the recommendations.

 

[wiscwhip]

I really like Steve's idea! Keith McCaffery is a straight shooter and a very science oriented wildlife biologist.

For any of you who haven't read this, it is a great little summary outlining some of his management ideals.

https://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_traditionaldm.pdf

 

[sandbur]

Was there another vote today and have we passed all hurdles?

 

[sandbur]

I like Keith, also. Also John Ozoga.

 

[bat man]

I really like Steve's idea! Keith McCaffery is a straight shooter and a very science oriented wildlife biologist.

For any of you who haven't read this, it is a great little summary outlining some of his management ideals.

https://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_traditionaldm.pdf

https://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_traditionaldm.pdf[/QUOTE]

I asked McCaff for a price and he sent a list of other dudes names qualified for the task.

If you want internationally renowned population experts that reviewed the WI deer model, consider this panel:

Dr. Josh Milspaugh (University of Missouri) Pop ecologist

Dr. Mark Boyce (University of Alberta) Pop ecologist

Dr. Duane Diefenbach (US Geol. Surv., Penn State) Biometrician

Dr. John Skalski (University of Washington) Wildlife demographer

 

[bwoods11]

Science + Simple math

Going from 6 day gun season to 9 days, then limited muzzy to 16 days really shot up my zone.

Sometimes it's just a matter of addition (corrected by subtraction)

 

[West Branch]

The sad thing is that I think a lot of the current biologists feel that they are using science for deer management.

 

[bat man]

Here you are Brooks(and everyone else), the what and the why of WI deer herd monitoring metrics...

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/documents/DTR/metrics.pdf

You saw how they were presented in the "Juneau" document I linked earlier.

For those that will likely be attending the St Francis Pow wow -(trying of a week from Monday or Tuesday) to shape the scope of the audit and provide the team an overview of what we are looking for, please be sure to read through the link Whip provided above. Very good baseline.

 

[foggy]

With all due respect...I disagree. When I emailed with Marrett Grund it was clear he did not feel he was using hard science for deer management. I made the statement that if I had spent the time and money to get a degree in science I'd be less than happy to use sociology to manage the deer herd...and he agreed...paraphrasing of course. I could pull up the actual emails if necessary. Scientists want to use science...but when they're castrated by the system...there is no other choice. Pay the mortgage and toe the party line...or don't...and don't pay the mortgage or any of the other family bills.

I think this ^^ is why some of the DNR employees like the idea of the audit. It takes them off the hook and gets the program back on track without them having to buck the system or pay any consequences for what has happened. I think many of us would like that senario when our butts are on the line in the "real" world.

 

[wiscwhip]

For those that will likely be attending the St Francis Pow wow -(trying of a week from Monday or Tuesday) to shape the scope of the audit and provide the team an overview of what we are looking for, please be sure to read through the link Whip provided above. Very good baseline.

As I said earlier Brooks, I would seriously try to get in touch with Dr. Van Deelen at UW if you haven't already. His experience with the deer issues in the Chicago area will help with your overpopulation pockets in and around the Twin Cities and other hotspots.