Germination - Top Growth 4 Chestnuts - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by broom_jm
Here are a few random pointers from one n00b (me) to anyone else who may decide they want to grow chestnuts from seed, in future years. These are things that may be very obvious to folks who are experienced at growing trees from nuts, but were things I learned the hard way, this year.
(This is also a reminder to myself, as I would like to try my hand at DCO next year.)
A chestnut has a top and a bottom. The radical (root) will pop out of the bottom and after it's established, the "Top Growth" (tree) will start growing up from that spot where the root turned to start growing down. If you place the nut in the soil with the bottom pointing straight down, and cover it with too much soil, the tree portion will be pretty deep and have to grow up a lot before you see it...if it makes it that far.
Lay the chestnut (or other nuts, I presume?) on its side about halfway down into the dirt/grow mix. The root will go down and the top growth will be visible sooner, with less risk of it being buried too deep.
When you fill your grow bags with the mix, settle them by shaking a little and then water before you place the nut down into it. You may even need to fill the bag, water, then put more mix in because sometimes it REALLY settles when you water. I discovered that if I put the nut just below the surface and then watered, it could sink more than halfway down into the grow bag. This is NOT a good thing!
I learned to place the nut on its side so that the edge of it was barely visible, with most of the nut hidden below the grow mix.
Plan for a way to provide warmth under the grow bags, no matter where you are doing this. I found the soil would get quite cold when it is wet, even with the surrounding area being fairly warm. They make mats that are designed to be placed under the trays to provide warmth. Other methods work as well, like small portable space heaters.
Don't think you can go into this without spending some money to get good results. Spring for the good Rootmaker grow bags; they're worth it. Lights are also more expensive than you would think. The first year, expect to spend at least $250 on various items, unless you have a lot of the needed equipment on hand already.
Read up on the process of getting nuts to germinate and then grow into trees so that you understand it (more or less) before getting started. This will help you avoid feeling like an idiot, waiting for things to happen that won't for quite a while. It will also help set realistic expectations and make the process enjoyable, instead of a little nerve-wracking. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
This is supposed to be fun, right?? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Jason
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Jason,
I just wanted to address your first point a little more; how to plant chestnuts in containers. The first place to start is the container. You need something that will air prune the tap root quickly. Rootmaker 18s are the propagation container most of us are using but there are other brands. The key is that the container air prunes the tap root at roughly 4".
When I plan a nut in an 18, I first completely fill the 18 with mix. I only lightly pat it with my hand and don't try to compress it. I then take the nut.
The key to the nut is the pointed end. Both the root radicle and stem emerge from the same place, the point. If you plant the nut with the point up or down, either the tap root or the stem has to make more than a 90 degree turn which is not good. The root grows down based on gravity and the stem grows up based on light. The nut determines down just prior to the root radicle emerging. So, lets say you cold stratify you nuts in a Ziploc bag in the fridge and don't check them enough and one of the nuts had the point facing up. The root radicle will emerge and then double back along the nut growing down. If you then plant that nut with the point down, the root will keep growing up for several days. Eventually the nut will realizes that up and down have changed and the root will make a 180 degree turn and grown down. It is best to avoid the sharp turns with your root. That is one reason I like to plant my nuts before the root radicle emerges, or stratify them in a container where I can keep them in their proper planting orientation near the end of the stratification process when they are determining up and down.
The next thing I do is to set the nut in one corner of the cell with the point as close to the middle of the cell as possible. I then press the nut into the medium. In an 18, this is about right. I press the nut until the top of it is slightly below the top of the cell. I then add more mix above the nut and press it slightly with my hand. I leave it so the mix is slightly humped in the middle of the cell.
For the initial watering I dunk (only for the initial watering). I take the cell and cover it with the palm of my hand. It holds the medium in the cell. The then submerge the cell and my hand in a bucket of rainwater. I hold it there for quite a while. It takes time for the water to fully infiltrate the mix the first time.
You don't want to compress the mix too much. A good mix is a little chunky. It will have perlite or vermiculite or both along with bark in addition to peat. This creates lots of voids in the cell. This provides space for the roots to fill.
I then take the cell and put it in the rack and let it drain. Some settling will occur. After the settling has occurred, I leave it as-is for now. Once top growth begins, it is time to fertilize with Osmocote (slow release fertilizer). It takes time and requires moisture for Osmocote to release. The tree doesn't need it now as it is supplied primarily by the nut, but the Osmocote applied now will become available when the second growth flush begins. After sprinkling the Osmocote on the cells, I then take more mix and sprinkle it on top. This fills in any openings created by the settling but more importantly it covers the Osmocote to help it stay moist.
After the initial watering I only top water cells. Since the Osmocote is not exposed to the air, it doesn't dry out and releases better.
You are doing great for your first go, but your perfectionist tendencies shaking your confidence. Just like food plots, sometimes it takes some dirt under the nails to fully catch the addiction. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I am lucky because I have an unlimited supply of Chinese Chestnuts. I have worked very hard to share what I collect with as many people as possible. That has given me great satisfaction. I love whitetail deer and I get a kick out of knowing my efforts will be feeding thousands of deer in the eastern half of the country.
My resources get taxed because I reach high. I have two fridges that I use for my nuts / seeds. I have two grow boxes that are crammed full.
I am attempting to stall / slow down germination until some of seedlings are ready to leave the grow box. It works fairly well but because of my numbers I don't check my bags for germination very often. I have 18 trays full of chestnuts & other nuts.
I have seen some ugly radicles. The worst had three turns on the corkscrew. I have seen one that had to different 90 degree turns.
I cut 9 with sharp scissors. I labeled them with yellow plant labels. Right now 4 of the 9 have top growth and I believe it will finish at 6 or 7 out of 9.
I will be patient and allow them adequate opportunity to put on top growth. Getting in a hurry is not nature's way. That lesson is taught over and over. No sense in being a slow learner.

Why do I post this? If you find a chestnut with an ugly radicle, please don't toss it out. Keep it if you need a tree. Cut the radicle at the location that favors a good tree - no crooks in the radicle.
I dip the chestnut in water - I trim it - then put it in growing media all within the same 20 second time period.
Why do I trim them? I read that the American Chestnuts folks will trim the radicle. If you need a tree - don't toss it out. Trim it to give you a straight radicle and put it in the game. Some games have happy endings - not all. As Jack Yoder and I say - this is a numbers game. Good luck with your germination success.

Wayne,
I have been using a drinking straw to straighten radicals and it works really well. Just push it up and center it through a prefilled RM 18. You can actually take the corkscrew out too by rotating the straw. If the radical is long enough, you can actually pull it out of the bottom of the RM and all that root is straightened and the root pruning process is now already starting. There are a few other little things like soaking the nut in warmer water and twisting the straw a little when removing that helps in the process but that's the gist of it.
I am actually letting my radicals get several inches on purpose and using this method to plant as the only plants that I lost so far were the result of short radicals drying out before it got long enough in the media.
I have been doing this with chestnuts and oaks.

So, this is one of the very first chestnuts that shot up a stalk to become an actual tree, but as you can see, it sort of died back and two more are now coming up. It sort of looks like one is growing from the base of the tallest one, but they are three separate stalks.
Is this how multi-trunked trees happen?
Do I need to worry about this at all? Clip the other stems off after one of them demonstrates the strongest growth?
Also, there is some kind of mold growing on the surface of the medium. Some have more than this. Is it anything to worry about? Too much watering/misting?
(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I have a philosophy that I will not try to act like I am smarter than nature. I don't trim multiple trunks. I have a great bearing Chinese Chestnut tree I collect from that has two trunks.
I love that tree because it is so reliable!
If it gets under your skin, wait a while to observe which stem is the strong one. Don't get in a hurry and don't over think it. You see three and there will be a clear separation in size but you must allow it to develop.
Watering chestnuts should be though of as feast and famine. Water real good and then allow them to dry out real well. Dry means dry.
I don't have any experience with your bags - do they allow drainage to occur?
It is certain you will hear from others they are adamant about trimming away two stems and leaving one stem on the triple chestnut. I understand that is what they believe.
I encourage you to do what makes sense to you. It is your time and effort. I have a great deal of education. This classroom is nature's classroom and I am learning nature's lesson.
I hope my reply helps. My 2 cents....

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Originally Posted by broom_jm
So, this is one of the very first chestnuts that shot up a stalk to become an actual tree, but as you can see, it sort of died back and two more are now coming up. It sort of looks like one is growing from the base of the tallest one, but they are three separate stalks.
Is this how multi-trunked trees happen?
Do I need to worry about this at all? Clip the other stems off after one of them demonstrates the strongest growth?
Also, there is some kind of mold growing on the surface of the medium. Some have more than this. Is it anything to worry about? Too much watering/misting?
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Broom,
One of the benefits of the 18s with a professional mix is how well drained they are. Chestnuts are high in carbs and very susceptible to mold. If the medium stays too wet, they are subject to "damp out". A shoot will just quit. If the nut has enough energy it will put out another shoot. I have also found that when mold is present, multiple shoots are more likely. Using bleach prophylactically or to try to mitigate mold also seems to cause multiple shoots.
I'd guess just looking at the picture your issue is one of the above. Having said that, on occasion, even if there is no mold or damp-out, a tree will have multiple stems. When this happens, I'll let it grow for a bit. After a few leaves begin to develop, I'll select a winner and remove the other.
Good Luck,
Jack

today was a water day. had to rearrange for size and reposition for some of the taller ones that werent getting enough wind. tallest was 22 inches with a stem diameter of 3/16"
i have a few multi stem ones, but like yours, they were ones that the first stem fizzled. the leaves on those are smaller by quite a bit at this point. i imagine they will lag behind for a while.
that green moss looks like either a mix of watering too often or poor drainage of the growing media. in cells where the perlite washed off and its just peat on top i get that occasionally.
on a few of my culls i have noticed a very thick taproot, like 3/8" thick. its got cracks that run vertically, stretch marks almost. there are secondary roots, but i sont like the looks of the thick stress cracking taproot, any ideas? ill try to post pics when i get to a computer

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Originally Posted by jaximus
today was a water day. had to rearrange for size and reposition for some of the taller ones that werent getting enough wind. tallest was 22 inches with a stem diameter of 3/16"
i have a few multi stem ones, but like yours, they were ones that the first stem fizzled. the leaves on those are smaller by quite a bit at this point. i imagine they will lag behind for a while.
that green moss looks like either a mix of watering too often or poor drainage of the growing media. in cells where the perlite washed off and its just peat on top i get that occasionally.
on a few of my culls i have noticed a very thick taproot, like 3/8" thick. its got cracks that run vertically, stretch marks almost. there are secondary roots, but i sont like the looks of the thick stress cracking taproot, any ideas? ill try to post pics when i get to a computer
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Some of my oaks look like that as well. Started looking almost like a carrot when it gets too big and woody. Most eventually stopped growing and turned black. No mold or anything but i know they dried out too much initially that started the death of mine. I just thought i could bring them back to health. I am only having premature luck with one of the 10. The rest are probably gonners.
Do you cut your trays of 18s to re-arrange? I couldn't justify almost double the cost for them precut in a different tray when I looked at getting them.

 

[yoderjac]

express 18s are definitely worth the price

these are the roots of my culls

Jax,
Thanks for the pictures and sacrificing a few of yours for the cause. How many days along are these? I have a couple like that too. I believe it is from the radical tip drying out. In my case, I was out of town for a week and I had my mother in law water my plants for me . Before I left, I planted some nuts with some very short radicals fearing they would be too far a long when I got back. She used a small watering can and concentrated the stream at the base of the nut and radical juncture. It undermined the radicals a bit and I believed the root tip died. I made a bad mistake when I told her not to over water them but just when the media turns to a lighter color.
I am beginning to believe you can't over water with RM 18's and a pro mix type media but depending on the stage of growth and variations in grow set ups (fans , lights, heat etc.) you can under water. My fear of overwatering resulted in underwatering. Live and Learn. This results in either a dead growth tip leader and you get branches or a shallow dead tap root tip. I didn't cull any of mine yet as some appear to be making some progress. I think I am going to let Mother nature do it for me.

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Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
Some of my oaks look like that as well. Started looking almost like a carrot when it gets too big and woody. Most eventually stopped growing and turned black. No mold or anything but i know they dried out too much initially that started the death of mine. I just thought i could bring them back to health. I am only having premature luck with one of the 10. The rest are probably gonners.
Do you cut your trays of 18s to re-arrange? I couldn't justify almost double the cost for them precut in a different tray when I looked at getting them.
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I use express trays, not the original 18s because the cells are a much heavier plastic and will last many years. The cells are removable from the trays and the trays elevate the bottom of the cell a bit for better air flow. I started with the original 18s. I ended up buying a couple empty express trays and cutting the original 18s. If you cut them right they will fit into the trays. They only last a few years before I end up cracking the plastic, but at least I could rearrange them. I the next time I ordered 18s, I got the express tray version and was much happier with them.
Thanks,
jack

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Originally Posted by BUCKINTRADITION
Jax,
Thanks for the pictures and sacrificing a few of yours for the cause. How many days along are these? I have a couple like that too. I believe it is from the radical tip drying out. In my case, I was out of town for a week and I had my mother in law water my plants for me . Before I left, I planted some nuts with some very short radicals fearing they would be too far a long when I got back. She used a small watering can and concentrated the stream at the base of the nut and radical juncture. It undermined the radicals a bit and I believed the root tip died. I made a bad mistake when I told her not to over water them but just when the media turns to a lighter color.
I am beginning to believe you can't over water with RM 18's and a pro mix type media but depending on the stage of growth and variations in grow set ups (fans , lights, heat etc.) you can under water. My fear of overwatering resulted in underwatering. Live and Learn. This results in either a dead growth tip leader and you get branches or a shallow dead tap root tip. I didn't cull any of mine yet as some appear to be making some progress. I think I am going to let Mother nature do it for me.
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You can't water them too heavily but you can water them too frequently. The best indicator for watering rootmakers is weight.
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by jaximus
these are the roots of my culls
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In years when I have mold issues, that is exactly what the roots on many culled trees look like. I believe this is disease related. Disease may or may not be related to watering. In years when I have no mold issues I don't see roots like this.
Thanks,
Jack

interesting observation with the mold and root girth. i didnt notice mold on any of them, but the leaf tips on most turned brown before they opened. i figured it was some sort of over fertilization. the tips on the girthy ones were mostly soft and brown.
having never dealt with chestnuts before this year, i wasnr sure what the roots were supposed to look like. i havent looked at the healthy plant roots to know. thanks for the info!

 

[yoderjac]

how are everyones chestnuts doing?
i feel like mine are doing pretty well, been running the lights (6 bulbs of T8) over 4 trays from 6:30am-9pm on a timer. using rainwater has helped keep the leaves a nice green color

Jaximus,
I am glad to hear your seedlings are doing well. Big green leaves on Chinese Chestnuts seedlings in express 18 trays are a pretty sight to see.
I pulled all of my trays out of the grow box to water, inspect and re-organize based upon height. I took the following photo. I am very pleased with how well the majority of mine are doing.
Some of the ones you culled I would not have culled. Personally I believe some of them would have recovered. Just my opinion based upon how I seen some seedlings finish after a very slow start. Bear in mind I am giving away many seedlings to friends across the 95 counties in TN.
I cherry pick what gets planted on my farm! My son and grandkids deserve the best of my efforts. The seedlings in the photo are getting air treatment from an oscillating fan to improve stem strength when I move them outside. These will get two 30 minutes sessions in about a three hour period. The chestnut was put into growing media on Jan. 8th and look at them on March 11th. They sure are vigorous growers.
Jaximus I appreciate your posts and I have learned from what you share. Thanks.

Two questions:
1) What conditions dictate when young trees can go outside? Specific temperature range? Cloudy, sunny, rainy? Would it be OK to put them outside on a 60 degree day with mostly clouds and a chance of showers?
2) When transplanting to larger (1-gal) bags, what soil mix should be used? The same grow medium they were started in or more of a traditional potting soil?
Thanks,
Jason
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Originally Posted by broom_jm
Two questions:
1) What conditions dictate when young trees can go outside? Specific temperature range? Cloudy, sunny, rainy? Would it be OK to put them outside on a 60 degree day with mostly clouds and a chance of showers?
2) When transplanting to larger (1-gal) bags, what soil mix should be used? The same grow medium they were started in or more of a traditional potting soil?
Thanks,
Jason
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Jason,
It is primarily temperature and control of direct sun. You need to slowly move trees into full sun. There are lots of ways to do it. You don't want to leave them out if there is a frost. I don't do a lot of back and forth but you can. I generally wait until I think the threat of frost has passed. I then move them to a shady area that only gets a couple hours of direct early morning sun and then a couple hours of filtered sun. After about a week, I move them to a spot that gets full morning sun. After a week or so there they can handle full sun if you have such a spot, but I generally keep most of my seedling out of direct afternoon sun.
As for transplanting, I use promix directly in the 18s, but when I transplant them I mix it 50/50 by volume with mini-pine-bark-nuggets I get from lowes. This makes the mix a little chunkier and 18s are too small for that. I primarily do it for cost. Promix is expensive.
This year, I'll be experimenting with adding charged biochar to my mix.
NOTE: Watering changes significantly when trees go outside, especially in cells. Watch them much more closely until you get the hang of it. Because of changes in temperature, sun, humidity, wind, and rain, along with the stage of growth, the frequency of watering becomes much less consistent than indoors where conditions are more stable.
Thanks,
Jack

These pictures show the variation in growth of chestnuts. I numbered my pots so the pots are in the same position in both pictures. There is a big initial difference in the first thirty days but after 60 they seem to be more consistent with each other. I did notice that my gold group is experiencing its second flush and the Silvers are not, so we will see if Gold goes back ahead. I did do something different in the gold group so I will see what happens in the long run. As stated earlier in this thread , be patient with seeing the wide variety of growth as of right now it seems to have evened out . Some of the stunted looking ones have actually seemed to have taken hold and caught up. Thanks to all the contributors to the forum . I am really enjoying this project and much gratitude for all the advice and guidance. Sometimes I feel like I'm copying someone else's homework (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Does the yeast in the Coors Light seem to help with root development? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Broom
I recommend you use the mini pine bark when you move the seedlings from the 18s container up to a gallon container. It will help with your drainage and saves me money on my growing media.
Sunlight can kill your seedlings or it may just stunt them a great deal. Nurse them into sunlight. I little bit and then a little bit more.
I have a 60 foot pine tree in my back yard. I use it to block the afternoon sunlight. I start my trays on my covered porch. They might get 20 minutes where a set a timer on my microwave. It has a loud bell.
I just don't want you to lose a chestnut seedling because the sunlight fried it.
Good luck to you.

I put them outside for a few hours today, but it was overcast the whole time. I was actually hoping it would rain, but it never did. They are all back inside, safe and sound. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Broom,
What you did today with the sun is the proper approach. Increase the sunlight to them slowly.
Your plants will love it and respond to it - that is the best approach.
For me, I have to set my timer on the microwave so I don't forget them when they are outside.
Squirrels in my city neighborhood are a threat to my chestnut seedlings. If we leave the nuts on the seedlings and put them outside, the outcome will not be pretty.

I've got my trees in a bay window that gets full morning sun all the way until at least 11:00 AM. Is that too much?
Where I'm planning to keep them (back deck) for the next couple of months doesn't get sunlight until around 10:00 AM and then get scattered sun the rest of the day, once the surrounding trees leaf out. Is it better for them to be more or less shaded from noon on, because I think I could do that, as well.

Broom,
We are mid march and the sunlight is not a killer as much now as it will be in mid April. Up until 11 AM should be fine.
I think a 10 day to 14 day plan to get them to full sunlight is reasonable. I do need to add as we put sunlight on them, it is in our best interest to keep the seedlings hydrated.
Three or four days of sunlight to 11 AM and then increase the amount of mid day sunlight. Putting them outside exposed them to wind, which strengthens the stem and will increase the dryness of the growing media.
Give them five days of morning plus mid day sun and them we go full bore assuming our seedlings still show healthy signs.
Our words in a post are nothing compared to what the appearance and healthy signs of the seedlings show. Keep a careful eye on them and it may play out that a few seedlings get pulled out of the sun while the majority do well with your sun introduction plan and schedule.
I hope you are enjoying your seedlings - you have done a great job for the first lap around the track. Asking questions and thinking out the details give your seedlings their best care. Carry on...

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by broom_jm
I've got my trees in a bay window that gets full morning sun all the way until at least 11:00 AM. Is that too much?
Where I'm planning to keep them (back deck) for the next couple of months doesn't get sunlight until around 10:00 AM and then get scattered sun the rest of the day, once the surrounding trees leaf out. Is it better for them to be more or less shaded from noon on, because I think I could do that, as well.
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Sunlight doesn't hurt them. Here is what happens. When you start them from seed in the winter under lights, we set the lights for long 15-16 hour days but indoor lights don't have the intensity of the sun even when hung close. They get sufficient energy to grow well, but as the leaves develop, they adapt to being much more efficient at collecting light. When they are suddenly exposed to full sunlight intensity, the leaves burn.
If you start trees early (say Dec or Jan) with sunlight only, the low angle and lower intensity and shorter days at that time of year result in poor root systems. Since you started yours later and added some artificial light to supplement the sunlight, hopefully you won't have the poor root system problem. However, since your trees have been getting increasing intensity and day length morning sun all along. Your trees should be much less sensitive to moving outside than say mine which only get artificial light. I need to adapt to full sun much slower than you will.
Thanks,
Jack

I re-read this thread. Looks like I'm about 2 months behind everybody this year. Everyone seems to have flat racks with lights overhead, which is what i did last year. This year im trying to add natural light and extra humidity into the mix which wasnt possible in my basement setup from last year. I have a tall 4 shelf covered plastic greenhouse. Same as some of you are using only parts of. 3 of the shelves receive good sunlight from the window it's up against, but now that I have leaves and top growth I need to get some good lighting set up.
Has anyone hung their shoplights vertically instead of horizontally so that all the shelves get light?
I'm wondering if the some of the light actually coming from lower than the leaves will help prevent them from reaching upward as much. I just set up two 2 bulb shop lights vertically on the opposite side as window and covered the greenhouse with white house wrap to reflect more light inward and a large mirror on one other short side.
Gets me thinking, Walmart has those tall mirrors for like $5 might be a good project sometime to just line the sides of a greenhouse out of those.
How's everybody else doing lately?

sparky! i was just thinking about hanging a light so it pointed sideways instead of straight down. aiming it at some of the lower tier leaves. dr Whitcomb did research that the lower leaves are the ones responsible for stem caliper, while upper leaves are mainly for upward growth.

Light energy diminishes with the distance squared. A light twice as far only delivers 1/4 of the energy to the plant.
Horizontal shop lights can be hung and angled so they are within inches of all the trees as they grow. This is a pretty efficient way to deliver light energy.
Now, how would things work vertically. First, plants on the outside would get direct light and you could place the lights a few inches from the trees. Trees in the middle would not get the direct high intensity light energy. They would get light that is filtered through other trees, distant direct light from the part of the bulb above the trees, and reflected light (presuming you are using mylar).
This does not seem to be as efficient of system.
When it comes to light, more is better. So, while I would not change from a horizontal setup to a vertical one, I could see adding shorter vertical fluorescent tubes around the perimeter of the trees. I would not use 4' shop lights for this since most of the bulb would be well above the trees.
To be perfectly honest, using 3 or 4 horizontal shop lights to cover 4 to 6 trays, light is not a limiting factor.
Over time I'm finding that water (what kind, and how frequently) seems to make the most difference for the first stage with 18s given temps at 70+ and the amount of light above.
Thanks,
Jck

The window I'm using is only as wide as a single tray and it's the only location I have with good light that wouldn't be in the way. I plan on rotating the trays frequently so the outside rows should get roughly same amount of light. Inside row is only one row in how i have them arranged parallel to the lights and window so they won't be blocked much. My greenhouse is about 5ft tall so 4 ft shop lights are about perfect height and I didn't have to buy any. I have 4 more 2 bulb in basement I could use temporarily if needed.
Is reflective light not that beneficial? I don't understand how distance would diminish the lights energy to the plant. Does the air filter the energy somehow?
Which is more important? Shop lights closer and no natural light, or shop lights farther and a decent amount of natural light and ability to close it up keeping in all the moisture and heat?
As it is currently I hardly have to water. I'm maintaining 75-80* Temps with 80-95% humidity inside the greenhouse. There's no way I'd be able to maintain that without a large amount of work and some extra money building a horizontal enclosed greenhouse in my basement. Hopefully this setup is only temporary for the next couple weeks until I start wheeling them outside on carts during nice days.
Is the benefit of being outside in wind and all natural light more beneficial than the humidity and Temps I've been providing currently? I think it's too much work to bring into house every night and my garage has been 40-60* depending on the day.
This is only my second year growing. Maybe next year I'll build a nice enclosed rolling portable greenhouse in my garage for the best benefits. For now I'll just have to make due the best I can. I have 4x 6 bulb t12 4' lights I got from work I'd be able to use too if needed.

Sparky,
I am really happy with all of my results so far of both my chestnuts and oaks. I grew mine in my garage and it is only heated to 60 degrees via geothermal radiant floor heat. I struggled to keep the humidity up to 40 % even though I ran a large humidifier non stop. The low humidity didn't seem to hinder them at all other than drying out quicker. I had no mold or discolored media or high humidity associated problems. I liked my consistent temps and air flow so I sacrificed humidity . I didn't enclose them at all but I could have easily tarped it in. I basically just stacked them on top of each other I guess you could call it a sandwich method. I had a piece of plywood mounted on top of 4 bulb drop ceiling lights and that is where my RM trays would sit. My trays were capturing the heat from the underlying lights and ballasts. My soil temps were in the mid 70 's when I checked so I was 15 degrees warmer there than the air temps. I did use a heat mat on one shelf. I also had a window in back of my set up. I would not keep any trays there permanently. I just rotated them all through the sunshine spot as a little taste of what's to come and start the hardening off process. Next year, I am going to make a four post, floor to ceiling sliding system using this same concept. I could easily put some of the reflective foil roll insulation on this and could probably up my humidity and heat and light reflection if need be. I do not have room or permission (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) in my finished basement so the garage is what I have to work with.
I guess we all have different limiting factors and resources that prevents us from creating the ultimate growing environment. I am thankful for the shared info that is here so that I am able to apply it to my situation.

 

[yoderjac]

i took some pics and moved 4 of the biggest to 1 gallon original rootmaker containers.

Quote:
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==================================
the rootballs popped right out using jacks method of getting it real wet and upside down.

Jax,
Looking good. How many days along are yours? I believe we are on the same time line. Need Jack to give the grade on whether its ready, looks like good white root development .

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by BUCKINTRADITION
Jax,
Looking good. How many days along are yours? I believe we are on the same time line. Need Jack to give the grade on whether its ready, looks like good white root development .
==================================
When the removed rootball maintains the shape of the 18 like that and the media doesn't fall off in chunks, they can be transplanted. There are many tiny roots inside that media that is holding it all together. When chunks of media fall off, it is because they are void of roots. This means there is still room in the 18 for more roots. There is a range. I'd say the one in the picture is on the early end of the range but definitely ready. If you are going for maximum growth, that is a good example of transplanting well before it becomes root bound.
Thanks,
Jack

these were planted december 29 with a root radical about 1/4" long. so that puts these at somewhere around 10 weeks in the 18s. the normal window is supposed to be 12-16 weeks. ive never kept track of time in the cells and went by top growth and feel

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
these were planted december 29 with a root radical about 1/4" long. so that puts these at somewhere around 10 weeks in the 18s. the normal window is supposed to be 12-16 weeks. ive never kept track of time in the cells and went by top growth and feel
==================================
That makes sense. They are definitely on the early end of the window for transplant as I said. Whitcomb says that if you are trying to maximize growth, it is better to transplant a litter early rather than a little late.

Jaximus,
Your seedlings are doing great! That is a good rootball in the photo.
Water, temperature, growing containers and care all worked out well.
I am a 14 week guy as a rule. They get harder to water as they get close to the end of the window in the 18s.
Should make you good trees. Congrats!

i had to do some greenhouse reconfiguring. i learned some things this year and i think a combination of everyones approach might be best.
i had my lights turned crosswise to the express 18s, so that three 2 bulb fixtures covered 4 trays. it saved one light verus the 2 trays per 2 bulb light parallel to tray method. it worked great for the early stages and put lots of light on the seedlings.
where it started to fail was when the fan applied wind it was at the narrow end of each tray and by the time it reached the backside, there wasnt enough force to flex the trees. so even with rotating locations when i watered, i ended up with some trees that were a little wimpy stemmed and some that couldnt handle the heavy leaves without a stake.
so for next time, i may start germination with the lights crosswise and the when they get their 2nd set of big leaves, rotate them sideways and turn on the fan.
i now have my trays in an "L" shape in the corner of the basement and spread out with a few extra express 18 bases (9 cells per tray) and the fan running more often. my hope is to make the trees much more sturdy and thick in the time before i move to my new house. im hoping to not have to upsize any more containers before the move.. we close april 14.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
i had to do some greenhouse reconfiguring. i learned some things this year and i think a combination of everyones approach might be best.
i had my lights turned crosswise to the express 18s, so that three 2 bulb fixtures covered 4 trays. it saved one light verus the 2 trays per 2 bulb light parallel to tray method. it worked great for the early stages and put lots of light on the seedlings.
where it started to fail was when the fan applied wind it was at the narrow end of each tray and by the time it reached the backside, there wasnt enough force to flex the trees. so even with rotating locations when i watered, i ended up with some trees that were a little wimpy stemmed and some that couldnt handle the heavy leaves without a stake.
so for next time, i may start germination with the lights crosswise and the when they get their 2nd set of big leaves, rotate them sideways and turn on the fan.
i now have my trays in an "L" shape in the corner of the basement and spread out with a few extra express 18 bases (9 cells per tray) and the fan running more often. my hope is to make the trees much more sturdy and thick in the time before i move to my new house. im hoping to not have to upsize any more containers before the move.. we close april 14.
==================================
I love the thought process, seeing issues, and looking for logical changes to address them.
My guess is that your changes won't make much difference. Report back and let us know.
My experience for what it is worth is that a fan is useful in stressing stems when they are young, but it will not solve your "wimpy stem" problem. I think this is simply a function of starting chestnuts under lights early. The earlier you start them the greater the problem.
Chestnuts tend to grow tall quickly. The low intensity of the lights increase this. Having more lumens per square inch and keeping them as close to the trees as possible helps to some degree. I have one grow area with 3 lights over 4 trays lengthwise and one with 6 trays with 4 lights over them lengthwise. I only leave an inch or so between fixtures. Mylar inside the grow area probably adds slightly more light efficiency but not intensity.
I have had the biggest issue when starting trees in early December and transplanted them to larger containers when still indoors. In nature, by the time they are 6" tall, the sun is quite high in the sky and has plenty of intensity.
The good news is that in the long-run, this isn't a big issue. When I transplant my trees to 1 gal RB2s, if they are floppy, I use a flag like this: <http://www.lowes.com/pd_548878-46697...-402_1z0vb4w__ as a stake. I very loosely attach the tree to it. I want the tree to be able to move but to generally stand vertically. I've never had one that was still floppy by planting time in the fall.
Thanks,
Jack

I just looked in my basement and I have 4 lights with 6x 32 watt t8 bulbs in each. I'm thinking of removing my regular shop lights and putting all 4 of them around the greenhouse. 1 top, and one each hanging vertically on 3 sides with the window on 4th side. If that doesn't give enough light, I don't know what will.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
I just looked in my basement and I have 4 lights with 6x 32 watt t8 bulbs in each. I'm thinking of removing my regular shop lights and putting all 4 of them around the greenhouse. 1 top, and one each hanging vertically on 3 sides with the window on 4th side. If that doesn't give enough light, I don't know what will.
==================================
The question is &quot;enough for what&quot;? Enough to get an early jump on spring? They already have that. Enough intensity to completely solve wimpy stems? Sun will solve that and it is almost time for me to put mine outdoors.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
The question is &quot;enough for what&quot;? Enough to get an early jump on spring? They already have that. Enough intensity to completely solve wimpy stems? Sun will solve that and it is almost time for me to put mine outdoors.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
What is the determining factor for putting them outdoors, permanently? Low temperatures above 40? Above 45?

I was thinking the same. It's cold and rainy all week. I. The mean time they could be putting on more growth. Or are cloudy yucky days a good time to acclimate ease there's no direct sun. Is there enough indirect through clouds still or better off indoors with bright lights.
About half of mine don't have leaves open yet if any top growth over an inch. Was tempted to direct plant a few for something to compare rest to.

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Originally Posted by broom_jm
What is the determining factor for putting them outdoors, permanently? Low temperatures above 40? Above 45?
==================================
Here is what I do. I start with our last threat of hard frost. By April 15th the chances of a hard frost in my area is less than 10%. That is good enough for me. I trust a weather forecast for about a week within a degree or two for temperature estimates. I trust a forecast 2 weeks out within 3 or 4 degrees. So, in most years, I look at the 2 week forecast around April 1st. If it looks like I will get no freezing temps, I'll start acclimating them. Otherwise I'll wait until I don't think they will get a frost. I have so many trees, I want to minimize the number of times I have to move them.
In some years like this one, we get an early spring. When this happens, I start looking at the weather forecast a week or so earlier.
It takes time to acclimate the trees to full sun. Growth definitely slows when I put out in colder temps, but they are getting some sun and wind which is good for them.
I don't know of any hard rule other than I don't want to damage leaves or roots with a hard frost.
Thanks,
Jack

OK, based on that explanation, it looks like I'll be able to put my trees outside, full-time, in about a week. Since I only have 5 trays to worry about, I will just watch the forecast and bring them back in if the temps get below 40 degrees.
They are going to be in a location where they get a couple hours of morning sun and then nothing but indirect light the rest of the day, until they get acclimated.

i had 60 degrees and beautiful warm sun with a light breeze on saturday. yesterday we got a bunch of freezing rain followed by snow. everything had melted off by last week. now its all white again. it will be a while before my stuff goes outside.
spreading my cells out into more bases looks like it should work to toughen up some stems. the gets a nice flex and wiggle to all of them. hopefully by the time they go outside i can remove the stakes

Couple questions I could use some input.
I have two pin oaks. Both sprouted same time. But in different pots. One in a rootmaker 18, 1 in a 1 gallon pot with 4 other pinoaks that all look the same. Both are same height, within an inch, but the one in rootmaker has twice as many leaves and largest two leaves are light green and almost the size of a playing card. The trees in the 1 gal pot had slightly less sun and slightly less light from shop light and leaves are about dime size and fuzzy pink and white. Not mold or fungus from what I can tell. Does leaf formation actually increase with light amount? I would almost think it would be opposite with bigger leaves trying to make up for the light they aren't getting, but from the looks of these I'm wrong. Most of my chestnuts are in between these in size, some just sprouting, some with 50 cent piece size leaves. One of them with about an inch of top growth got really moldy in last two days. The root broke right off when I tugged on the nut and it was all squishy. I hope the rest don't get that way. Any ideas what may have caused it this late after it was already growing? Also the last two days some of the leaves started to get wilty and seem lighter green. The tops looked fairly wet yet, but after poking a finger in the cell of the one that died it was actually pretty dry lower down. I took that as a sign that I needed to change something so I put about 10-12 osmocote beads in each cell with top growth and watered them really well. I also moved them to garage in front of large window with slightly better sun but for a shorter time and put one of the 6 bulb t8 shoplights over it for better light. The bad thing is humidity in garage is about 30-40% and only about 55*. I surrounded the shelves with pinkboard insulation and put a lamp under the table for some extra heat. Might get it up to 60 or so for the trees. Hopefully that's enough and I did the right thing. What do you guys think?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
Couple questions I could use some input.
I have two pin oaks. Both sprouted same time. But in different pots. One in a rootmaker 18, 1 in a 1 gallon pot with 4 other pinoaks that all look the same. Both are same height, within an inch, but the one in rootmaker has twice as many leaves and largest two leaves are light green and almost the size of a playing card. The trees in the 1 gal pot had slightly less sun and slightly less light from shop light and leaves are about dime size and fuzzy pink and white. Not mold or fungus from what I can tell. Does leaf formation actually increase with light amount? I would almost think it would be opposite with bigger leaves trying to make up for the light they aren't getting, but from the looks of these I'm wrong. Most of my chestnuts are in between these in size, some just sprouting, some with 50 cent piece size leaves. One of them with about an inch of top growth got really moldy in last two days. The root broke right off when I tugged on the nut and it was all squishy. I hope the rest don't get that way. Any ideas what may have caused it this late after it was already growing? Also the last two days some of the leaves started to get wilty and seem lighter green. The tops looked fairly wet yet, but after poking a finger in the cell of the one that died it was actually pretty dry lower down. I took that as a sign that I needed to change something so I put about 10-12 osmocote beads in each cell with top growth and watered them really well. I also moved them to garage in front of large window with slightly better sun but for a shorter time and put one of the 6 bulb t8 shoplights over it for better light. The bad thing is humidity in garage is about 30-40% and only about 55*. I surrounded the shelves with pinkboard insulation and put a lamp under the table for some extra heat. Might get it up to 60 or so for the trees. Hopefully that's enough and I did the right thing. What do you guys think?
==================================
I think what you are seeing with respect to the pin oaks you started talking about is the effects of root pruning, not light.
In nature, the tree expends a lot of energy stored in the nut sinking the tap root. Then some energy from the nut goes to forming that initial stem and the first flush of leaves. There is a finite amount of energy stored in the nut. As the leaves begin to form, the tap root is probably producing a few secondary roots. Growth is being driven by energy absorbed by the leaves and then converted by photosynthesis. The plant needs water and nutrients to do this. The amount of water and nutrients absorbed is dictated by their availability and the trees ability to access them. The more tiny terminal root tips, the more efficiently it can absorb water and nutrients.
The nut in the 18 produces a tap root that is quickly pruned at about 4&quot;. This triggers upstream branching dramatically increasing the amount of water an nutrients the tree can access since you are ensuring they are present in the amounts needed. While the tree in the large container may have the same water an nutrients available, it can't access them as efficiently. Since the energy from the nut isn't going to producing a long tap root, some of the extra energy is going into leaf formation. Those larger leaves (solar panels) collect more energy and with the greater water/nutrient access are converted through photosynthesis.
In the end, trees properly grown in a root pruning container system will grow bigger faster than other trees.
As for the mold, mod and disease from moisture related issues can affect germination and kill young trees. Trees that started with mold can fail regardless of what you do. However, improper watering of young trees can cause &quot;carrot root&quot; as one guy called it and damp-out. When you water 18s, soak them until water is running from the bottom holes and then don't water again until the containers get light. I tried all kind of things when I started, but watering by weight works best. Your description of damp on top and dry deeper down suggest watering too frequently with too little water.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the input. That makes sense with the pin oaks. Glad I asked. It wasn't any of the reasons I assumed. I do believe part of my not thinking they needed water and being damp on top was due to the humidity level inside my greenhouse too. Lots of days there would be a lot of condensation on the insides of plastic covering dripping everywhere. I was also using a spray bottle because I couldn't fit a watering can in there well with shelves being so close together. Now with the good watering and move to garage, hopefully I'm on the right track. Thanks again.
How's everyone else's doing lately?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
Thanks for the input. That makes sense with the pin oaks. Glad I asked. It wasn't any of the reasons I assumed. I do believe part of my not thinking they needed water and being damp on top was due to the humidity level inside my greenhouse too. Lots of days there would be a lot of condensation on the insides of plastic covering dripping everywhere. I was also using a spray bottom because I couldn't fit a watering can in there well with shelves being so close together. Now with the good watering and move to garage, hopefully I'm on the right track. Thanks again.
How's everyone else's doing lately?
==================================
Glad to help. Humidity is a second order contributor at best. While I don't want to let it get down under 30% for long, beyond that I've quite worrying about it. While high humidity is optimal, there are generally other factors that limit our trees before that does.
My trees are doing fairly well.
Chestnuts: progressing well. I have a little over 5 trays.
DCO: This is my first try at them. They grow much slower than chestnuts. Lots of funny colors on some leaves and spotting, but they are still actively pushing new leaves so I don't think this is an indicator of health. I have just over 1 tray of them.
Hazelnut: These have been my biggest challenge so far. I have under a dozen with top growth and I find them very slow to germinate. The tallest is about 6&quot; with 4 or 5 leaves. Some are just starting to poke their heads up. I have about 24 nuts that still have not geminated.
Jujube: It is a mixed bag here. All the tigertooth jujube started from cuttings last year greened up quickly and are actively growing in the new 3 gal RB2s. I collected a lot of tigertooth sprouts from my trees in the field last year when they went dormant and potted them in 1 gal RB2s. About 50% leafed out and are actively growing. The rest don't look like they will make it, but I'm giving them a little more time. I tried an experiment last year to get other varieties growing on their own roots. The first step was to graft them to sour jujube (which I will never plant in the field because of thicketing) and then I hoped to layer them. The first step failed and none of the grafts took. Several of them put up new growth below the graft, so I save them and decided to re-try this year. I've grafted two of them so far, one contorted and one sugarcane to sour jujube rootstock. I see that the contorted is starting to leaf-out but it is still to early to say if it will take. The sugarcane is not leafing out yet. I also tried grafting a LI to one of the tigertooth I started from a root cutting last year. No sign of it taking yet.
Oriental Pears - I just planted my serrulata pears in flats a week ago. When I took them from cold stratification, many seeds had mold. I washed it off and float tested them. They all sank, so I planted them. So far, only one has germinated. I transplanted it to an 18. My pyrifolia (commonly know as sand pear) still needs more cold stratification. I took those seeds out to check them and they had mold as well. I cleaned off the mold and float tested them. They all sank. I returned them to cold stratification. I need to keep a closer eye on them. This is my first try with pears from seed. I had similar mold with the crabapple seeds last year but many germinated. Time will tell if this is true with the pears.
Apples: I didn't start any from seed this year but I did attend a grafting class where I got scions and two M111 rootstocks that we grafted. I got extra scions after class and plan to graft them to my crabapples planted in the field last year come April. I decided I had more scions than trees, so on Wednesday I stopped at the orchard and bought 8 more M111 rootstocks. Last night I grafted four. Two with Virginia (Hewe's) Crabapple, 1 Black Twig, and 1 Arkansas Black. I've grafted jujube and persimmon before but this is my first year to graft apples. While I still have more scions left than crabapples in the field that I want to graft, the scions I have are a bit small for the root stock. Todd has graciously offered to send me a couple more scions that are closer to my rootstock diameter.
Seguins (Asian Dwarf Chestnut): Last time I called Schumacher they said they had been shipped from China and they expected them to arrive in a couple weeks. I'm expecting to get them in early March. Time will tell what happens with them.
Pawpaws: I have over 50 these trees that I started last year and overwintered in my cold room in 1 gal RB2s. They are already on my deck and I'm hoping to start transplanting them to 3 gal RB2s tomorrow.
AU Buck III and IV and Gobbler Chestnuts: I got these from Wildlife group 2 Novembers ago and transplanted them to 3 gal RB2s. They grew last season on my deck and produced a few chestnuts. I brought them out of the cold room along with the Jujubes and they are fully leafed out with catkins showing. I'm hoping to plant these in the field later this spring.
That is about it for my summary.
Thanks,
Jack

Awesome! You sure have a lot going on. I'm hoping to graft some of my grandfather's apple tree branches onto a couple 4 year old trees I have. He's done it many times so I'm sure he'll help me. I'll post some current numbers late Sunday night or early Monday. Gonna be a busy weekend.

i will have to take a few pics of the new way i have things arranged. i cut a bunch of of the nuts off of the trees that were doing well. most were nearly hollow already anyway. a few had some nut left, but i wanted to remove them so the post nut removal stress period didnt align with the moving outside phase. plus with my timeline for moving, if the inspection goes well on tuesday, i wouldnt mind a tiny delay in growth at this point while the tree adjusts. that way i dont need to upsize containers before the move.

ive taken down the plastic and spread things out a bit. hopefully more airflow will be more beneficial than the potential downside of losing the plastic to keep the humidity and heat in

 

[yoderjac]

Jaximus,
Yes sir - things are moving forward. It looks good.
As the seedlings develop we all have to respond as needed. I moved some items outside in a growing cage with wire protection - none of them have top growth.
I order some root pouches this morning. I will be upsizing some Allegheny Chinkapins and Chinese Chestnuts in the upcoming weeks.
I hope no one get bit by frost - me included. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks for sharing the photo.

The leaves of my pinoaks are getting so large they have been shading each other so I decided to take one out of the middle of 18 tray to give room to others in that tray. I did the same with a chestnut. I loosened the soil around edges and pulled out by stem. They both came out very nicely and there was maybe 25-30% dirt left in the cell on each. The roots looked amazing and really held onto the media. I'm trying an experiment with a different type of homemade pot. I used a scissors and poked about 100 holes into a large popcorn bucket essentially making my own air pruning pots. They are probably the perfect size, maybe holding about a half gallon or so of media. I planted the two trees in those and bottom watered by placing into a bucket of water. I lost a large amount of media through the holes, but should be OK for now. Lining the edges with pine bark before planting in to assist in media retention might be a good idea for next time. I can't wait to see how these compare to the ones still in 18s a month from now. I have a feeling the trees in 18s are going to slow down or taper off with the reduced room for roots. Trees haven't grown up much at all lately, just larger leaves. I think the extra light is helping.

CHESTNUTS....
Do you clip off the chestnut at any particular time?
I clipped off 2 this weekend.....was suprised to find the nut meat inside
still 100% intact.....tasted pretty good too.

Here's an updated picture of today. You can see my white popcorn bucket too.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
The leaves of my pinoaks are getting so large they have been shading each other so I decided to take one out of the middle of 18 tray to give room to others in that tray. I did the same with a chestnut. I loosened the soil around edges and pulled out by stem. They both came out very nicely and there was maybe 25-30% dirt left in the cell on each. The roots looked amazing and really held onto the media. I'm trying an experiment with a different type of homemade pot. I used a scissors and poked about 100 holes into a large popcorn bucket essentially making my own air pruning pots. They are probably the perfect size, maybe holding about a half gallon or so of media. I planted the two trees in those and bottom watered by placing into a bucket of water. I lost a large amount of media through the holes, but should be OK for now. Lining the edges with pine bark before planting in to assist in media retention might be a good idea for next time. I can't wait to see how these compare to the ones still in 18s a month from now. I have a feeling the trees in 18s are going to slow down or taper off with the reduced room for roots. Trees haven't grown up much at all lately, just larger leaves. I think the extra light is helping.
==================================
What will cause the roots to grow out the holes in your bucket?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by ROS VEGAS
CHESTNUTS....
Do you clip off the chestnut at any particular time?
I clipped off 2 this weekend.....was suprised to find the nut meat inside
still 100% intact.....tasted pretty good too.
==================================
I always remove my nuts before I transplant them to 1 gal RB2s and put them outdoors where squirrels are a possible threat. I'd say after you have a half a dozen good sized leaves or so, contribution from the nut is minimal. I actually removed all of mine early this year because I had the time to do it and I knew I'd be busy when transplant time comes.
Thanks,
Jack

No idea. Lots of holes? Half the air pruning pots I've seen aren't much better. The bottom is just peppered with holes. Only one way to find out. Another month or two and I'll post if they work or not. I wish I was in high school yet. We had a thermoforming machine. I'd make my own pots for penny's compared to the price of the rootmaker pots.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
No idea. Lots of holes? Half the air pruning pots I've seen aren't much better. The bottom is just peppered with holes. Only one way to find out. Another month or two and I'll post if they work or not. I wish I was in high school yet. We had a thermoforming machine. I'd make my own pots for penny's compared to the price of the rootmaker pots.
==================================
That is why I tell folks to understand Whitcomb's the underlying principles and regardless of brand, find containers that support those.
Take a look at the rootbuilder II containers for example. They have no holes in the bottom at all. The bottoms are convex (into the container) and have ridges. When a root hits a container wall, it will generally follow that in a downward direction when possible. So when a root hits the bottom of the container, grows along that convex surface to the outside of the container and is guided into one of the lower protrusions to the hole at the end. When you look at the sides of these containers, they are almost completely protrusions. The protrusions are shaped like little cones that are at a downward angle directing roots to the holes at the end.
One of the other brand designs use very similar sides with protrusions. They are not quite shaped the same, probably to avoid patent infringement, but likely close enough. I think these are the smartpots that Todd uses, but I may have the name wrong. The bottom design on these is different. It is sort of a grate. The rootbuilder II pots can be placed on any surface because of the solid bottom. With the smartpots, I'd be concerned keeping them on some surfaces like a lawn. I don't know if air flow below the grate would be sufficient to prune the root before it began to grow into the soil. Todd may be able to comment on these in particular.
My point is that managed the right way, these probably both work pretty well. The key is understanding the underlying principles and finding a combination of container and management system that support those principles.
I was able to have success with the DIY containers for propagation replacing 18s. They were easy to make and less expensive than 18s. However, they were much less convenient to use and required much more attention to watering. For larger containers, I have not been able to find anything that is as effective and convenient as the rootbuilder IIs that is a significant cost savings and this includes other rootmaker products.
I'd encourage your experimentation at finding a less expensive DIY option, but rather than just poking holes, I'd suggest making sure you understand the principles, look at the rootmaker designs and how they support those principles of how root systems develop, and see if you can find a way to DIY it for less. I couldn't but maybe you can.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I understand the real ones divert to an opening, but no real easy way to make that. I did punch holes directly along bottom corners so if the wall or bottom is followed by roots they should go out a hole and get pruned. The best way would be making a mold and thermoforming, probably how these are made. I'm just really dissapointed in my trays of 18's. They are insane expensive for the quality. 2 of my 3 trays have cracks in and I've babied these things. I don't see them lasting more than 2 years if that. Ive heard the individual cells with different trays are better but price on those is almost hwy robbery. I'd really like to see similar pots but twice as thick and about an inch bigger in all 3 directions with trays still holding 18 cells. I might have to make some phone calls and see what I can come up with. It's frustrating when the only thing available just isn't quite what you'd like.

i posted this in a diffetent thread but it is probably better suited for this thread.
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i finally have a day off today(wednesday) so im hoping to get the trees outside. its supposed to be overcast and maybe rain. i figure i might stick the trays outside for a bit and let them get watered and wind and a tiny bit of outside light.
ive been super busy with work and taking care of house stuff, so i havent looked at the chestnuts for more than a couple minutes a day. looks like i have 2 that the leaves wilted and dried up, but the media wasnt dry nor wet. seemed the same as all the others. probably going to investigate that today as well. i might bump a few more up to 1 gallons as they are getting pretty big.
i cut the nuts off most of them a little bit ago and while there was a slight slow down in growth at first, they seem to be picking up the pace again. i did notice the new leaves that appeared post de-nutting are showing nutrient deficiency signs. some are mottled with lighter green areas/darker by the veins and some have a red tint. gonna add more osmocote and some transplant solution (liquid fert) when i water. one bottle is 3-11-3, the other is 4-12-4, NPK. last summer doing grape cuttings, the solution made a big difference.
==================================

about your DIY pots... i was putting in a sump pump the other day and was working with corrugated drain tile. theres multiple kinds, so that makes a difference.
the stuff that got my brain tinkering was the kind that does a slinky type thing. it has nice paralell rings that come to a point. it was called perforated drain tile so it had holes cut in it. looks like they just run a saw blade 1/8&quot; deep perpendicular to the rings to make holes. im sure it would make more sense to see it as my explanation is pretty weak

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
I understand the real ones divert to an opening, but no real easy way to make that. I did punch holes directly along bottom corners so if the wall or bottom is followed by roots they should go out a hole and get pruned. The best way would be making a mold and thermoforming, probably how these are made. I'm just really dissapointed in my trays of 18's. They are insane expensive for the quality. 2 of my 3 trays have cracks in and I've babied these things. I don't see them lasting more than 2 years if that. Ive heard the individual cells with different trays are better but price on those is almost hwy robbery. I'd really like to see similar pots but twice as thick and about an inch bigger in all 3 directions with trays still holding 18 cells. I might have to make some phone calls and see what I can come up with. It's frustrating when the only thing available just isn't quite what you'd like.
==================================
The old regular 18s are not design for long-term use. They are designed to be kept in mesh flats for support. They are not even close to the Express trays. Sometimes going cheap on the front end costs more on the back end.
I would say this: If you are only trying to grow trees from seed for a year or two, it really is not economic to start them in the winter in containers. You are much better off direct seeding. On the other hand, if you plan on producing a decent volume of trees for 4 or 5 years, there is a bit of an up front cost , but the cost per tree diminishes very quickly and the quality of the trees goes way up.
Lets look at the cost for a second. Say we shoot for 288 trees per year. That is 16 trays. You can set up a wholesale account with rootmaker. (If you want to do fewer trees, find someone to split with). The cost added for each tree is about $0.20. The cells will easily last 10 years but lets say the planting phase of your tree project lasts 5 years. That comes to about $0.03 per tree. I'd say that is pretty far from highway robbery.
Another thing I had to reconsider was my experimentation. I first did the same thing you did looking for a DIY solution. Even though I was reasonably successful with the substitute for 18s, I realized I was focused in the wrong place.
Last year, I stopped screwing with containers and started asking how I could improve my trees. I've been growing trees from seed for several years now. My general approach was to go for high volume and get trees into the field quickly. I planted a lot in the spring both from 18s and from 1 gal RB2s. My largest tree planted the first year is only around 9'-10' tall. Many trees are less than 5' and a few are over 5' after several growing season.
So last year I changed my strategy and decided to focus on fewer trees with better growth. You've seen the Maximizing Chestnut Growth thread. The experimenting last year was with multiple transplants and watering technique. This year the experimental energy was focused on adding life to my soil using charged biochar. I realized that someone put years into the research and more years into the container designs. Even if I found a DIY solution that saved me a few dollars on 18s, that is a fraction of the cost of each tree.
Thanks,
Jack

I have had my trees outside for an increasing amount for the last 3 days, today we are expecting a pretty violent storm and i dont feel comfortable leaving them outside in it.
My question is, if i skip a day of being outside how does that affect the hardening off process? Do i need to start over, pick up where i left off or backtrack a day or two in the process?
Thanks for any replies,
John B

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by John_B
I have had my trees outside for an increasing amount for the last 3 days, today we are expecting a pretty violent storm and i dont feel comfortable leaving them outside in it.
My question is, if i skip a day of being outside how does that affect the hardening off process? Do i need to start over, pick up where i left off or backtrack a day or two in the process?
Thanks for any replies,
John B
==================================
I wound not worry about a missed day too much at all....I did that a few times last year for frost reasons and it didn't seem to bother them at all.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
I understand the real ones divert to an opening, but no real easy way to make that. I did punch holes directly along bottom corners so if the wall or bottom is followed by roots they should go out a hole and get pruned. The best way would be making a mold and thermoforming, probably how these are made. I'm just really dissapointed in my trays of 18's. They are insane expensive for the quality. 2 of my 3 trays have cracks in and I've babied these things. I don't see them lasting more than 2 years if that. Ive heard the individual cells with different trays are better but price on those is almost hwy robbery. I'd really like to see similar pots but twice as thick and about an inch bigger in all 3 directions with trays still holding 18 cells. I might have to make some phone calls and see what I can come up with. It's frustrating when the only thing available just isn't quite what you'd like.
==================================
This is where a 3D printer would come in handy. You could design your own RM18 style pot and print it as many times as you want for pennies on the dollar. I have a printer but not sure if I have time to design something.
Matt

I don't have the space to plant 300 trees every year. After this year I will have my 1 acre well overplanted. I already don't know where to go with more than 5 trees this year. My main goal was big trees asap, I'll thin them out over time and I'm sure many will die. I really just want a diversity of good yearly deer feeding trees. I don't do food plots or have the room for it. I grow trees so I can get the diversity and types I want. I haven't seen any chestnut trees locally ever and I will now have 4 types. The SWO I got from dnr had the tap roots broken off with minimal root branching compared to what my potted and direct planted swo will have. In the long run I'm sure they will be faster better growing trees than anything I could have bought elsewhere at much higher cost. I haven't had good luck direct seeding due to my short growing season and rodents. With potting a tree with a head start I am having much better luck.
The only way to get the RM pots cheap is in bulk. My only friends that want the trees don't want to do any work or spend any money so splitting the cost locally is unlikely. My uncle has a beautiful house on 40 acres with a pond and stream,and no kids so I'm hoping to buy it or inherit it someday in the far future. I keep giving him trees ,chestnuts, acorns, but he plants them in terrible locations and kills most of them never watering, protecting or taking care of them. I offered to plant and take care of them but he doesn't want any traffic on the land worried it will drive the deer away. I understand his point, but once their established the food from them bringing more deer in should be well worth it. He had 12 apple trees by his house and deer killed all but 4 of them. They have plenty of habitat, just need more food.
I really enjoy growing trees and experimenting. I wish I had more land but can't afford it raising a family of 4 on my income alone. I just quit my electrician job of 13 yrs and started my tool and die job a couple months ago to spend more time with family and free time for fun stuff. Jungs nursery is hiring and working there would be fun and rewarding, but pay wouldn't maintain our lifestyle and definitely wouldn't allow for any fun stuff on the side.
3d printing is feasible but not likely cosy effective for the pots. Maybe the mold, but I could make that myself at work with what we have now without cost of the 3d printer.
Maybe someday. In the meantime better pots are a goal. Maybe I could make and patent some myself and retire early.... but I doubt it.

this was mentioned in another thread so i figured i would mention it here also as it is very pertinent.
the discussion was of 'crispy leaves' on chestnuts.
ive had 3 such cases on my chestnuts this year. mine were all on average or below plants. they were near the edge of the fans reach. the soil was still moist at the time of the leaves 'crisping.' upon autopsy, the roots were mushy and black. one had the chestnut removed, one had the chestnut still attached. the chestnut was mushy and black inside. the 3rd i have not yet removed from the soil. the roots were branched well enough, but had what some have described as 'carrot root' where the taproot is thick (like a pencil) and has what looks like stress cracks.

i would suggest that anyone who has this issue give a background on the plant so maybe we can figure out the cause. jack had mentioned he hadnt been able to save the plant once the leaves went crispy. ive had no luck either, and my autopsies would tend to confirm that.
my HUNCH is that the root system is too wet and thats why they died.

Ive had the &quot;crispy leaves&quot; on a few as well. The chestnut was mushy and moldy on each of them so moisture very well could be the culprit.
I dont feel like I have over watered at all (if anything ive underwatered)
but i know you guys said watering these things is a tricky business.
Either way ive got over 100 trees to plant/get rid of so im happy.(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks
John B

I had one totally lose all its leaves 15 or so and the tips of the branches died back an inch or so. After a couple of weeks, it is now resprouting leaves from the top down. I think it got lost during a shuffle around , rewatering and placing outside and forgot to water it. It was in the center of a full RM 18 tray of bushy Dunstans.
I did have some get some sun scald of the leaves on both my Dunstans and oaks. What was strange was that this was probably the 6 or 7th time that they were outside and had shown no visible effects before .

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
this was mentioned in another thread so i figured i would mention it here also as it is very pertinent.
the discussion was of 'crispy leaves' on chestnuts.
ive had 3 such cases on my chestnuts this year. mine were all on average or below plants. they were near the edge of the fans reach. the soil was still moist at the time of the leaves 'crisping.' upon autopsy, the roots were mushy and black. one had the chestnut removed, one had the chestnut still attached. the chestnut was mushy and black inside. the 3rd i have not yet removed from the soil. the roots were branched well enough, but had what some have described as 'carrot root' where the taproot is thick (like a pencil) and has what looks like stress cracks.

i would suggest that anyone who has this issue give a background on the plant so maybe we can figure out the cause. jack had mentioned he hadnt been able to save the plant once the leaves went crispy. ive had no luck either, and my autopsies would tend to confirm that.
my HUNCH is that the root system is too wet and thats why they died.
==================================
That picture is exactly what mine looked like above ground. I get a few like that every year. Could be the mix is compressed more or something and they are not draining as well as other cells. Since I water them all together, if it is water, it must be water retention.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I have 3 planted ones that looked like that last fall and kept the leaves on all winter. Last week I pulled one of the leaves off and the meat of the stem/ leaf was green inside so I think it's still alive. I guess I'll see in a while.
The last time I watered my 18 trays I tried my hand at bottom watering. Now almost 5 days later the soil tops look more wet than they should be. Seeing this pic makes me worry. Later tonight I'll make sure all tray holes are open with a toothpick. I've been running the fan a little more too when I first water to help dry the top out. Maybe I need to run it even more. The leaves on all potted trees look excellent yet so hopefully I'm just worried for nothing.
On a side note I talked to my uncle the other day and asked him how the 30+ trees I gave him last year are doing and where they were planted or if any of the 50 chestnuts and 40 acorns I gave him are doing. He said the 4 he planted died and the rest are behind his shed in the shade still in original pots. He said they were too small to plant and was waiting till they get bigger. I'm guessing they are either dead from cold winter in pots or rootbound if they are alive. Such a shame. 8 were dunstans. The chestnuts and acorns he said are in a bucket under the downspout from his shed and have been there all winter. I told him to put them in his fridge when I gave them to him and direct plant in spring. He said he put them there because he thought the water would freeze and help break open the acorns and chestnuts because they were so hard.
I told him if I give him any of the trees I'm currently growing I'm planting them. What a waste of time and trees.
He let me hunt there in the past and I was hoping to make it nicer for the deer but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

sounds like he was at least trying to help? maybe letting him see more of your process will get him interested enough to try himself? working together would help share some labor and financial burden possibly. i wouldnt write him off just yet. who knows, maybe its a test to see how serious YOU are!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
sounds like he was at least trying to help? maybe letting him see more of your process will get him interested enough to try himself? working together would help share some labor and financial burden possibly. i wouldnt write him off just yet. who knows, maybe its a test to see how serious YOU are!
==================================
Help? I don't understand how. He acted really interested the first year I grew them and gave them to him yet didnt listen to any advice on their care. I cant see how any could be alive. They havent been watered manually since I did last May. This year seems he couldn't care less. Most of the trees on his property are in poor shape. He's planted over 20 apple trees in last 12 years he's lived there and has 4 left that didn't die yet. They are probably 10 years old but in very poor shape. He blames it on the deer but he refuses to fence them, water, fertilize, or spray them. He's planted hundreds of spruce and pine trees with close to half dying how and where he planted them along with no care after planting. No initial watering and none after that either. If they make it then they are the lucky ones. I brought up his property on google maps on my phone last week when I asked him how they were doing and to show me where he planted them. I pointed out where I'd plant chestnut trees and he said no he doesn't want anything but pine or spruce in his fence lines or near his deer stands. He said the only place he'd plant them is in the open marsh. I told him they would die because it floods every spring and is usually a little wet the rest of the year. I've invited him to my land and he just shrugs it off like i didnt ask. We'll that's all I can afford raising a family of 4 on only my income. I didn't get inheritance and not have kids like he did. Which is why I'm hoping to get him growing some nice trees on it if i do inherit it some day. He's the only male family I have that lives in country and likes hunting. Oh well. That's enough ranting. Maybe someday I can set my son up with the hunting land I always wished I had.

The only lasting way to impact how someone does something is to provide a very good example and then let them do what they will.
Plant 3 trees on your uncle's property the best way you know how, including with a weed mat and gravel base and welded wire cage. Explain that just a few timely waterings is all it will take to get those trees established. If he doesn't grasp the value of that effort, especially when those trees start to produce fruit, then you're right; it's a lost cause.
Maybe he has good intentions but no real knowledge or conviction of what to do or why it's worth putting in the work? Until you've had success with something, it can be hard to stay motivated. When it comes to trees, that's where I'm at. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I get tired of paying for tree tubes, welded wire and landscape fabric as well as stakes and staples. These just drive the cost up - way up.
I agree with the statement - &quot;Tis better to plant 5 trees correctly than plant 50 trees.&quot; This is why I buy the things that drive up the cost but make seedlings successful! I am older and I want time to be on my side as I pray the lord blesses me with continued good health to allow me enjoy the sport I love.
I think if you plant 3 to 5 trees correctly and invested in some old five gallon buckets to deliver the water slowly by the drip method you just might get him to see something. Words can be abstract whereas seeing a seedling develop to a productive tree is a horse of a different color.
His ears may be tired - give him something to see. Should you accomplish the show side of the show and tell, then it is all on him.
Always remember - it is his land. Sounds like - less will be better than too much.
Broom - you gave him good advice. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

 

[yoderjac]

Tree growing is the hobby of a patient man. His lack of interest doesn’t make him a bad guy. It’s not for everyone.

Just a little frustrating. I helped him build his dream car over the last couple years. A 70 barracuda I found for him after 7 months of searching. He flew to PA drove it home to WI and started the sandblasting and motor rebuilding a couple weeks later. He's got the patience and money to sink 40k into a car but not $20 and some time watering trees when he talks about having nice hunting land more often than he did the car before I found it for him. I'll try one last time this spring but he's definitely getting last pick of the trees I have growing. Last year I gave him the second biggest tree I had which was a dunstan from a good friend who started it two years prior and gave me 2 of them along with a bunch of dunstan chestnuts to grow. My friend has been direct planting trees for atleast prolly 20 years+ and chestnuts for I think 6 or 7. He's the one that got me started. He gave my uncle many trees over the years and my uncle always complained that they always died. Dogwood, willows, apple trees, and some ornanental stuff. All 3 of us work at the same factory on different shifts. I told my friend about the trees I gave my uncle and he said he's done giving him trees for same reason and that he'd give me any extra trees from now on. I'm hoping to get some time to check out his land, but it's hard being on opposite shifts and his land 3+ hours north. Maybe some day.
Back to the real topic-
I checked my trees closely tonight. I had a busy week and didn't do much besides check to see how dry they were. They all look really good. Most started to put leaves out lower on the trunks.
Do you guys pull them off? I've never grown a tree from nut to full size to know if any branches move up a tree as it grows taller. I don't really want bushes, but don't want a stick later on either.
My second question- Has anyone else had moss grow on top of their soil? If so is it bad or any effect on trees?
Most of my cells are turning green on top and looks very much like the moss that's growing on my retaining walls along the north side of my house.
In January when my first acorns started to sprout before any chestnuts and I didn't have any decent pots or rootmaker trays I grabbed everything I could find somewhat suitable and planted in it. One thing I used was a box that 12 packs of soda cans come in. I poked holes in the bottom and filled with a couple chunks of broken up styrofoam. Maybe packing peanuts would work too. Next I poured in about 2 inches of pure perlite then topped off with my potting mix and planted an acorn in it. Fast forward almost 4 months and this tree is one of my biggest. Tonight it looked a little dry and wanted to see if the roots were circling or how it was doing so I grabbed it by the trunk and pulled it out of the box. The entire block of dirt came out with it. The main tap root was pretty obvious with it being the biggest. It was pruned about a half inch out of the dirt where it went into the perlite. There were also 5 or 6 other roots exposed on bottom. All but one was just poking out and fairly straight. The root that wasn't straight was tiny and long and flimsy like a hair. I don't know where that root was growing but for the most part this type of pot seems to be working pretty darn well considering it cost nothing. I have a couple more chestnuts that just sprouted and I'm out of room in rootmakers so it may be time to drink some soda.
How's everyone else's trees doing?

a common theme among a lot of posters on the forum is that they do work now that will pay off in the long run. many mention their kids and grandchildren. i myself have a 1.5 year old son. when my son is hunting age, my hope is that my chestnuts should be dropping nuts.
i know you mentioned that he doesnt have kids, so maybe the long term view is difficult. situations like that, nursery grown trees that are many more years old and much closer to production are useful, however, they are expensive and money doesnt... grow on trees...
dont let it get you down, keep doing what youre doing, we appreciate your input!

Sparky,
Here is my take:
Allow the leaves to develop - don't pinch anything off.
The stem will get taller and will increase in girth too. Allow nature to do its thing. Don't try to overthink what the chestnut will naturally do.
In regard to moss - I don't have any experience with that. With that said, I will allow others to weigh in on that. If they seedlings appear healthy then that leads me to believe the moss ain't having a negative impact.
If your growing media drains well I just don't believe you see that green stuff. If it retains some moisture that might be the reason why. Just a theory I put out there. Good draining growing media is a requirement for success with chestnuts. Glad I learned that early on.
Just my 2 cents ...

has anyone tried &quot;cocoa shell&quot; mulch with chestnuts? it looks like the right size and consistency to mix in with the peat/perlite mixture to add drainage and airation like jack does with mini pine bark. maybe its too early, but none of the stores around me carry many varieties of mulch that arent colored/rubber/cedar. i dont want dye as i dont know how that will affect roots. i bought a bag of what home depot called 'mini pine bark nuggets' but they were anything but mini and after tearing open the bag it was moldy inside.
my concern with cocoa shells would be bugs and critters. i dont want my containers full of ants and such and we have a decent bear population, so i dont want to antagonize... but they just look like the perfect size/shape for a mix ingredient...
i moved 10 more chestnuts to 1 gallon original rootmaker containers. i now have 14 total in the 1 gals.
i was hoping to move a few more, but all my planting stuff is all packed up for the move and this was how much dirt i had pre-mixed. i may grab another bale of pro mix and move some more tomorrow.
i watered yesterday after i had let them get dry and the leaves were sagging a bit. was hoping they would be perked back up today, but most are still a bit saggy.
with the last cold spell, i had the little heater running in the basement also, but i think the roots were cooler than i would like. my water thats sitting on the basement floor in buckets is pretty chilly. pretty sure the chestnuts are not a fan of cool and damp. i heard 'rumor' of it getting into the 60s this coming week, so maybe i can get them outside
ill upload some current pics in a bit

Nice pics. I'm curious about the coco bean mulch too. I've seen it and was tempted to try it because everything else is dyed and don't trust that or possible chemicals if some of the chopped up pine was treated lumber initially.
What's the tree look like that's attached to those roots?
Doesn't look like yours came out in a solid chunk like mine did.
My pics are posted in other thread. Not sure why mine show up as a link now. They used to be visible on the post as a pic like yours. Not sure what changed or what I'm doing wrong. Any ideas?
It was nice and sunny in the high 50's today so I moved my trees outside for 3 hours. I'm thinking that may have been a little long tho. Most of the leaves look a little dried out now. We'll see if they perk back up tomorrow.

What a setup! Good job and good luck

 

[yoderjac]

not overly happy with how the roots look. its hard so see a bunch cuz they are brown and not bright white like i wanted. i think most of that mix came out cuz i was bottom watering, there wasnt much if any left in the 18s. the trees from the roots in the pictures are healthy and perky.
i think your pics are links and not showing up in the thread cuz you didnt delete the initial 'http:' thing that pops up when you go to add an image? i delete that everytime and my pics show up in the text, no links. i also use the 'direct' option when copying the link from photobucket.

I did some searching on different kinds of mulch and came across a forum dedicated to growing venus fly traps. Some of the guys were amending the media with pine needles. One guy even used them alone with good results. Very good drainage, ads very slight acidity to soil and lots of voids for roots to grow. I'm going to fill a couple of the RM 18 cells with my normal mix and 50% pine needles and a couple with all pine needles and put in some of the chestnuts that just sprouted and see how they compare after a couple weeks.

I am finding the pine bark that you need to amend your soils with not in the mulch section but in the soil section. Look for for a pine bark based soil conditioner. Since the shipping and handling costs more than the contents of the bag, it is probably going to be a regionally produced white bag with plain lettering. I did the online search of my local Lowes it doesn't show up but they had it.

I would think the needles would be better. More smaller voids. Plus I can get all I want for free. Just rake under some pine or spruce trees.
Is the brown roots an indication of staying to wet or something else?

i spent quite a while and asked a few employees at a few different stores and couldnt locate any pine bark suitable for our use. maybe once spring is actually here they will have more stuff in stock. still have a couple inches of snow on the ground here.
as for the cocoa husks, i did some more research into them and everything ive read cautions against letting it be damp. apparently you have to do a very shallow layer as mulch or it doesnt dry out and molds. no thanks! cocoa husks look neat, but stay away!
not sure why the roots are brown. the water sometimes drains brown, and i had just watered them the day before transplant. not sure if that makes a difference. they looked healthy enough, just tinted tan/brown.

Jaximus,
So when you close on house and get moved in - will you have anything close to the nice growing setup you have now?
Will you get moved this month?
Good luck with all of that fun (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

we arranged to stay in our rental until the end of may so i have a month and a half to do some work on the house. its a fixer upper with mostly just minor jobs like replaster and paint.
as for the growing setup, theres actually a root cellar in the basement with concrete block walls. my intention, and the wife gave her blessing, is to remove the existing shelving and replace with wire mesh shelves and have that become my grow room. its big enough to do 4 nice size shelves that will accomodate the same number or more plants than i did this spring.

 

[yoderjac]

Jaximus,
Your future setup sounds great. Get your electrical right and be able to maintain adequate temperature and your will be set.
Your current setup is well organized. In the real world that one and half months will fly by.
Your future looks bright ...

a handfull of my chestnuts still havent recovered from whatever ails them. the leaves are droopy and starting to dry out. so in an attempt yo prevent the rest from suffering the same fate, i upsized a bunch to 1 gallon containers with less osmocote. this should give better drainage and keep the roots out of the perched water table of the containers. i think my issue is a mixture of a bunch of different things.
1. temp was too cool in the basement on the floor without the enclosure
2. the mix was holding a little too much water because of the temp
3. the temp was too cool for the plants to uptake optimal nutrients
4. i over fertilized for the tempature of the growing media
5. i had the fan running too frequently
hopefully they recover...

1. Water is the main Killer of Chestnuts. It drowns them or it make them rot.
2. I would reduce the fan to 15 minutes a day or 30 minutes a day. We can stake our seedlings when we plant if necessary. If you are drying them out, you will not be planting.
3. If the leaves are dry, spray them with a mist of water. A soft rain - do this two or three times a day on dry leaves.
4. Chestnuts can grow huge leaves &amp; when it does, the need for water absorption increases.
5. Is there any chance your roots have filled the 18 container? If that is true, watering becomes very difficult. Two choices: transplant to a larger container (too early to plant in the field for you) or two baptize the container. That is a dunking &amp; you might dunk it twice inside 30 seconds. This guarantees that the roots get water.
6. Dunking 18 containers when they roots are just starting promotes growing media being lost out the bottom. In this situation, we are dunking when the container is basically full of roots.
Fans will dry out leaves. Get a spray bottle and give them moisture. Leaves obtain moisture from the air &amp; rain and from the roots. Leaves lose moisture from the wind as too much fan.
I hope my reply makes sense to you.

your reply makes a ton of sense! misting the leaves sidnt even cross my mind! i also reduced the frequency thr timer turned the fan on quite a bit.

I did a post mortem on several and here is what I found:
1) Several had &quot;carrot root&quot;, an enlarged diameter tap root with very poor root system. The Mix was very wet. They looked great on top until they wilted which goes to show, the tops are not a reflection of the root system.
2) Several on the other end of the spectrum were bone dry with very well developed root systems. Tops looked identical.
I think both of these are water related. In the first case, wet feet probably caused or enabled disease. With the poor root system, the trees could not transpire properly. The fan then caused the leaves to dry out. These were likely doomed from the start.
In the second case, I think these were very healthy trees. As the root systems filled the containers, they became hard to water. While I thought I was watering them well, when reaching a wand into a forest of these trees, it is easy for water to overfill a cell and spill into the next. You think you are watering one tree but much of the water is going to the next tree. All of these trees were in the far back and it was hard to see. I believe these wilted due to lack of water. If I had caught them earlier they probably could have been saved with better watering.
I think water is the key.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I did a post mortem on several and here is what I found:
1) Several had &quot;carrot root&quot;, an enlarged diameter tap root with very poor root system. The Mix was very wet. They looked great on top until they wilted which goes to show, the tops are not a reflection of the root system.
2) Several on the other end of the spectrum were bone dry with very well developed root systems. Tops looked identical.
I think both of these are water related. In the first case, wet feet probably caused or enabled disease. With the poor root system, the trees could not transpire properly. The fan then caused the leaves to dry out. These were likely doomed from the start.
In the second case, I think these were very healthy trees. As the root systems filled the containers, they became hard to water. While I thought I was watering them well, when reaching a wand into a forest of these trees, it is easy for water to overfill a cell and spill into the next. You think you are watering one tree but much of the water is going to the next tree. All of these trees were in the far back and it was hard to see. I believe these wilted due to lack of water. If I had caught them earlier they probably could have been saved with better watering.
I think water is the key.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
this needs to be said over and over. fantasically said. with all the things ive grown and all my experience... chestnuts are by FAR the most WATER SENSITIVE things ive come across.
the best way to combat this is a good growing media. i like to mix my own, but this past year i waited too long to grab my main mix component before they stopped carrying it in the fall, so i had to settle. this past weekend i got a new bale of promix all purpose (my main ingredient) and my what a difference. i had used a bale of compressed peat (packaged by pro mix) but it was just peat. it was dry, probably too fine and lacked the 'wetting agent' component, so it would go from too wet to bone dry in weird steps. i think that costed me a few plants. the media is most important in the 18s and gets less critical as you upsize.

Friends the following text is from a post I made in another thread. It sums up what I learned the hard way and what was taught to me by others.
What Kills Our Chestnuts When We Try to Grow Them?
#1 Main Killer is Moisture! We over water them. We think Miracle Grow with Moisture Control has to work - look who is selling it. More chestnuts will rot before they break soil than a first timer would ever guess.
#2 Wrong Type of Growing Medium - We don't need soil &amp; we don't need moisture control. Chestnuts like to get to the point of dry before they like water. Using the right growing medium helps the roots and allows us to learn what watering plan works. Roots need air for oxygen and they need space to grow.
#3 Mold Kills - We put them in airtight container with no chance to breath &amp; we put too much moisture inside the container.
#4 Sunlight &amp; Heat Kills - We collect chestnuts but we put them somewhere and forget about them. When a chestnut is collected - get it cleaned and inspected to see if it is a firm chestnut with no rattling in the hull. Leaving them in a hot vehicle for a week after collecting - just reduces our chances.
#5 Chestnuts Smell Good to Critters. Chipmunks, Squirrels, Rabbits, Deer, Turkeys, field mice, etc. Our chestnuts get killed because we don't protect them. If you plant a chestnut in the wild outdoors - you better protect it for a couple of years. Better to plant 5 trees well than plant 50 trees without protection.
#6 Chestnut get killed / setback by sunlight. Grown inside means we must gently push them into the sunlight. Baby steps required here. I use a pine tree that protect them from mid day and pm sun. My seedlings get early morning sun. Worked well until the squirrels made a raid.
#7 Lack of Moisture During Dog Days of Summer. Depending on your containers and location, in July and August if you go three or four days without watering seedlings that have many leaves, you can lose all of your work. Shade cloths are what nurseries use and they water twice a day.
#8 Chestnut Seedling is in Perfect Health then it gets planted in the wrong location. Sunlight is the power plant that generates the chestnut seed. We have to get pollinated by another chestnut tree that is nearby. Location of tree and proximity to other trees matter. We avoid stream sides due to risk to standing water during certain months.
#9 Negligent will kill. Every two or three days you better check on chestnuts under grow lights. In summer heat, you better water at reasonable intervals for your climate. I like to feel of the chestnut leaves with my eyes closed. What does the touch tell me? If you check ten seedlings - one of them may really need some water while the other nine show no stress.
Folks I am not an expert. I am motivated to accomplish my goal - improve my deer's habitat. It is certain I left something off the list above. I just wrote the hard lessons I have learned. If you like to cut corners - your success rate will go down.
I will be asking some of my friends on this forum to review this list and to make additional contributions and comments.
I hope you find this information is useful.
wbpdeer
FYI - I have killed more than my share of chestnuts by error. The good news is I am not repeating my mistakes.

 

[yoderjac]

wayne,
i remember seeing that post before. i find it so important that i needed to post it again. even though your plants may be 18-20&quot; tall, they still can be lost with poor water management

Wayne,
would you discuss your water regimen for chestnuts in RM18s?
would also appreciate input from matt ,jack and the other experts on the forum
thanks,
bill

TreeDaddy,
This explanation is based upon Rootmaker Express 18s. These have individual containers that can be reorganized in one of 18 locations or can be rotated at its current location.
This explanation is for &quot;Chinese Chestnuts&quot;.
Most important choice is the growing media you select. Cutting corners can kill / reduce your success rate. I use ProMix. It is a compress bale and it is costly but it drains well.
I have two grow boxes. I used 4 foot shop fluorescent lights. These lights are hung with small ropes allowing me to adjust the height of each end of the light.
My trays sit on a conduit rack with a large area beneath to allow air flow.
I check my chestnuts at least once a day - usually twice.
When I add growing media to the individual containers in the beginning I want that growing media wet. First step to getting a good start. Don't pack the growing media - we want air to get to the roots. We don't need tightly pack soil!!!!!
I like my chestnuts just below the surface. I like to see the brown top of the nut. This helps keep it moist and reduces mold. Best way to prevent mold is to have a good draining growing media and rootmakers 18s drain well.
In the beginning it is best to top water. Dunking them when no roots are developed causes loss of growing media out the bottom of the 18 container.
I fill five gallon buckets of city water and treat it with acid to lower the water pH to about 6.0 with the use of acid purchased at a Hydroponics Store. I have a meter and quickly figured out how much acid to add to five gallons to get the water at my target pH. I am smart enough to listen to the knowledgeable people. My guy at the Hydroponics Store has steered me right.
Watering chestnuts is like feast and famine. I want them wet and then I leave them alone until they are dry - dry. Early on I may be watering every two or three days depending on my heaters and the temperature of the air. My basement is not heated but my grow boxes are insulated and rather air tight.
We don't run a fan until we get seedlings with some height.
Back to feast and famine - water them to saturation and let them get dry dry. Then go back and water them to saturation.
When I get leaves - then I add Osmocote Plus - it is slow release and doesn't burn the seedlings. As leaves get big - I will spray the top of the seedlings with regular water - not acid treated water.
I sometimes remove my Express 18 trays and put them in a large tuberware container to collect my excess water. I do well when I water to inspect the condition of my plants. Which ones are dry and which are too wet. I reorganize by height.
Be smart and label your rootmaker trays with the date you put the chestnut in the growing media. Label the type of chestnuts. I have some late droppers I collected for my farm.
I gave you a long explanation. Please follow up with questions where I omitted info or confused you with my words. I am in my second year on &quot;Chinese Chestnuts&quot; and have 10 trays of express 18s.
I believe in timers: 1) for lights, 2) for heaters and 3) for fans. We all get busy - I don't want my seedlings to suffer - timers are vital to my success.

Tree Daddy
In a grow box situation like mine, the seedlings closest to the heater or the fan will get dry sooner than the seedlings further away. Location matters.
Rotate your trays and containers so this variation is balanced out across the number of seedlings you are growing.
Is this more work - absolutely - but it is very important.
My heaters have the timer set for 30 minutes on and 30 minutes off. My heater in each grow box has an individual thermostat on the heater which allows it to cycle on and off during the 30 minutes it has active power to it.
In Texas, you may be growing outside. MattPatt is the outsider growing man - hands down.
People that use rain water can avoid treating their water to lower the pH. I don't have any collection system to collect rain water at the present time. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I had two rm18 cells open from transplanting to larger pots and decided to try out my spruce needle idea. One cell is 95% spruce needles with some dirt from raking them up. The other cell is 50% spruce needles and the rest my regular mix of peat, perlite, and bagged garden soil. I'm finding the straight needles is bone dry the next day and half needles is bone dry on second day. I put a chestnut in each that has a 1&quot; or so taproot already started from my normal media.
While I was raking the spruce needles I got a bunch of acorns in with it and got to thinking. I'm already growing these, why not give these a shot too. I had some really small 16 cell seed starting trays 1&quot;×1&quot;x2&quot; deep cells. Just barely covered the bottom with some needles then some of my regular mix and topped with sandbox sand. We'll see if these sprout. The sand has been bone dry every day too. I may need to rethink the sand idea or mix it with peat better.

i use a 3 gallon pump sprayer with a wand for top watering. i prefer to bottom water for the most part, but you do lose some mix.
over fertilizing will also hurt more than help. a bit of osmocote mixed in or on top the mix is really all you need. young roots are susceptible to fertilizer burn. if you see build up near the bottom holes on the 18s, you probably have too much fertilizer.
jack has a really good explanation of when to water. its based on feel. wayne is right about the wet to dry part. dry on to top does not equate to dry in the root zone. the cells weigh much less when dry.
someone also said, i believe that was jack as well, that you cannot overwater when using a professional well draining mix, but you can water too often. by this they mean that a good mix will only hold so much water, the rest drains out. then the cell must dry out before you water again.
good water is also important. i moved this past fall. the old city had what was considered 'poor' city water, but it was good for plants. my new place is in a city with 'good' city water and it has too many chemicals and is no good for plants. i now use rain water.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by TreeDaddy
Wayne,
would you discuss your water regimen for chestnuts in RM18s?
would also appreciate input from matt ,jack and the other experts on the forum
thanks,
bill
==================================
Bill,
I'm no expert. The problem is that the amount and frequency of watering really depend on such a wide variety of factors, there is no way to talk about amount or timing.
When you plant your nuts, before you water them, pick up the cell. Feel how heavy it is. Now top water the cell. Keep adding water until water is dripping out of the lowest holes in the bottom. You can't use too much water. Once the cell stops dripping water, pick it up again. Get a feel for the weight. Now, think of those two weights as Empty and Full respectively. You don't want to get close to running out. Shoot for 1/4 tank. If you see leaves drooping and the cell is dry, water immediately, you've gone too long. If they droop and the cell is wet, you may have watered to much. Each time that cell hits about 1/4 tank, saturate it. Make sure water is dripping from the lowest holes. The professional mix will drain very well. As the tree grows, and the roots are pruned secondary and tertiary roots will form. They will fill all the voids in the cell making it drain less quickly. Adding water until it is coming out of the lowest holes ensures you are fully watering the mix. Don't water again until it hits 1/4 tank. Use weight as your guide. Don't go by the dryness of the top of the cell.
Use rainwater if possible.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks,fellas
This is my first year with chestnuts and started~100 cells 3 weeks ago in RM18s with promix Bx and rainwater.All had radicles after 60 days in fridge and longleaf moss
I have top growth in 58 cells started outdoors !!
I can't begin to tell you how much fun this is!!
bill

TreeDaddy,
100 outdoors - yes it will be fun. I think it is addicting in a good way.
Sunlight, temperature, cloudiness, and wind will be your issues. Strong winds will dry out your containers much faster than you can imagine. For instance the outside cells in the trays positioned on the outside will dry hours ahead of the other cells in other containers.
Rotating the position of cells and trays will be something you will monitor - no doubt.
You have made some great choices already. Best of luck.
I hope you know how to post pictures - we all learn from them.
MattPatt has a great thread of how many he dealt with last growing season.
You have some hot months in front of you. He used a lawn sprinkler and a timer switch best I recall. I am an indoor growing. I will be planting in 2 and 3 weeks. My schedule is different than yours.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
a handfull of my chestnuts still havent recovered from whatever ails them. the leaves are droopy and starting to dry out. so in an attempt yo prevent the rest from suffering the same fate, i upsized a bunch to 1 gallon containers with less osmocote. this should give better drainage and keep the roots out of the perched water table of the containers. i think my issue is a mixture of a bunch of different things.
1. temp was too cool in the basement on the floor without the enclosure
2. the mix was holding a little too much water because of the temp
3. the temp was too cool for the plants to uptake optimal nutrients
4. i over fertilized for the tempature of the growing media
5. i had the fan running too frequently
hopefully they recover...
==================================
Any update on if yours came back around?
I'm hoping my trees are acclimated enough and almost ready to plant. They've been outside under my garage overhang from 8am-1pm every day for a couple days now. I spray the leaves 2-3 times a day to keep them moist. The last couple days it's been pretty windy tho drying out and damaging some of the leaves. There's small brown spots or streaks on some parts of some leaves. Should I be baying them more or just worry less about perfect leaves?

Ive planted and tubed several of my chestnuts over the last two weeks, all seem to be alive and doing well.
About how much top growth should i expect this first year? I'm sure most of the energy for now will go into spreading out that root system and putting down the tap root?
Thanks for any replies,
John B

Not sure about everyone else, but my two and 3 year trees aren't much if any taller than my current year trees are now. They are thicker diameter tho and guessing after year 4 they'll really start growing.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by John_B
Ive planted and tubed several of my chestnuts over the last two weeks, all seem to be alive and doing well.
About how much top growth should i expect this first year? I'm sure most of the energy for now will go into spreading out that root system and putting down the tap root?
Thanks for any replies,
John B
==================================
If you direct seeded them, which it sounds like you did, the growth rate will largely depend on your soils as long as you gave them a good location, protected them, and are reducing competition.
When I grow them in root pruning containers in a good mix, that grow faster than any other tree I've grown from seed. However, once they are planted in my native soils which are heavy clay, they slow down significantly.
Just to provide a comparison, last year I grew one from a nut starting it under lights, kept it one growing season in containers on my deck and planted it in the fall. It is a little over 6' tall and 3/4&quot; in caliper when I planted it.
I have many that were started the same way but planted in the spring several years earlier. Many of them are only a few feet tall with much smaller caliper even though they have had several more growing seasons.
A direct seeded trees is a little different, but in general, it all depends on the fertility of your soils and the trees access to resources.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I started them in RM pots this winter under lights, most are around 18 inches tall right now.
Was hoping for better news but at least i wont have my hopes up and be let down when they dont grow much.
Thanks again,
John B

John B
I plant from rootmaker 18s quite often. If they are 18&quot; now, many of them will get to 42&quot; by the fall. Some will be about 30&quot; and the slower ones will still be in the 20 something inch range.
Height is not every thing - look at the stem girth and the number of nice leaves. I call it the tri-fecta - height, girth and leaves.
At then end of the fall, last year, after planting in April in tree tubes that were 30&quot; tall (5 footer cut divided in half) I had to cage about 1/2 of mine.
I had rather have a shorter chestnut seedling that has good girth - it will handle wind better.
Height is 1/3 of the parameters.
Good luck and I hope my explanation helps. Not all soil locations are the same - the spot you select can make a huge difference.
Water them and fertilize them now and around the end of June - not after the 4th of July. You want them to hardened off before cold temps in the late fall.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by John_B
I started them in RM pots this winter under lights, most are around 18 inches tall right now.
Was hoping for better news but at least i wont have my hopes up and be let down when they dont grow much.
Thanks again,
John B
==================================
I've had poor success planting directly from 18s. The root ball is quite small. Since the tap root has been pruned it is important that they receive water when needed. I'd say my survival rate on chestnuts planted directly from 18s has been better than other trees, but they have not flourished. Keep in mind that I don't provide any supplemental water in the field and they have to survive on their own.
If the trees have filled 1 gal RB2s, I have better success but growth is still limited in my soils. I seem to have the best results doing two transplants in one season from 18s to 1 gal RB2s to 3 gal RB2s and planting them in the fall.
Here is a thread with pictures: <Maximizing Growth Thread
Again, with better soils or supplemental watering in the field, your results may be different than mine. I started with the &quot;Plant a lot directly from 18s&quot; philosophy and evolved into &quot;Plant fewer bigger trees from 3 gal RB2s.&quot;
Thanks,
Jack

Thanks guys,
We do have pretty good soil in my area so ill hope for some quick growth but not expect it.
Im sure i will migrate to the less is more philosophy myself. I ended up selling half my trees this year to pay for the lights and such and am still struggling to find room to plant the 50 that remained.
I need more land or less trees!
Best of luck,
John B

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by John_B
Thanks guys,
We do have pretty good soil in my area so ill hope for some quick growth but not expect it.
Im sure i will migrate to the less is more philosophy myself. I ended up selling half my trees this year to pay for the lights and such and am still struggling to find room to plant the 50 that remained.
I need more land or less trees!
Best of luck,
John B
==================================
I hear ya there. More land and more trees. What did you sell them for and how? I bet there'd be a market for them in my area but haven't looked into it much yet. I enjoy growing and could get a better pick of the litter if I was growing larger numbers. Maybe next year.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Sparkynutz
I hear ya there. More land and more trees. What did you sell them for and how? I bet there'd be a market for them in my area but haven't looked into it much yet. I enjoy growing and could get a better pick of the litter if I was growing larger numbers. Maybe next year.
==================================
Sorry for the slow response, i dont really get online much during the weekends. I sold them for $5 each mostly to guys I work with and some of their friends. If you had a ton of them im sure you could post them on apps like Varagesale and do ok.

 

[yoderjac]

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