Germination - Top Growth 4 Chestnuts - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

I encourage other forum users to use this thread for "Chinese Chestnuts", "Dunstans" "Benton Harbor" etc.
On Jan 8, 2016 I put 72 "Chinese Chestnuts" in rootmaker 18s Express Trays. None had a radicle. I collected these from late dropping trees in the last half of October 2015. These trays were placed in a new grow box built to expand my growing capacity.
Today is Day 12 - On January 20th, 13 out 72 have top growth. <font color="Red">This is 18%[/color] which pleases me. It means I handled my chestnuts well at collection, washing, drying and storage in my fridge.
Each day I anticipate these numbers will improve.
Jack Yoder has done a good job tracking his numbers. He is where I got this idea. I encourage participants in the One Thousand Chestnut Tree Project to use this thread and post on this thread.
Thanks for reading this post.

I put 18 out and had 14 germinate with the other 4 started to mold in the media. Replaced the 4 with extras and they have now germinated. The very first nut that had top growth developed a 4&quot; stem but had yet to put out a leaf.

Those are good numbers DogDoc. Mold is part of our losses.
Normally, I don't let a chestnut get into the media until it has a radicle but this year I have a large number to push through.
Congrats to you and thanks for posting on this thread.

Today is Day 13 - On January 21st, 30 out 72 Chinese Chestnuts have top growth. <font color="Red">This is 42% [/color]rounded up.
Really a great jump in the last 24 hours. Gain of 17 in the last 24 hours.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Today is Day 13 - On January 21st, 30 out 72 Chinese Chestnuts have top growth. <font color="Red">This is 42% [/color]rounded up.
Really a great jump in the last 24 hours. Gain of 17 in the last 24 hours.
Thanks for reading this thread.
==================================
Looks like you have &quot;lift off&quot; I was always amazed at how slow they were to start, and then how quickly all followed suit once a few popped out.

Lakngulf,
Your post is exactly right. If you watch them too long (as I tend to do) it is easy to get spooked. Last Friday I was getting nervous - hoping I had not spoiled my prospects.
The last two days has been as you say &quot;lift off&quot; Also, a number of guys had been telling me how many of their chestnuts had germinated and I was sitting here with only 3 or 4.
Nature's way is a patient way - I have trouble with that lesson. Glad to hear you can drive. Hope you get a good report.

Wayne,
I plan document how I proceeded this year and then post a chart. This should help folks know if things are going as expected or not.

My Process:
1) 133 Dunstan chestnuts purchased from a reliable source (Chestnut Ridge of Pike County).
2) Rinse with running water and soak to hydrate for 24 hours. All passed float test.
3) Divided into groups of 20 and placed in 1 gal ziplock bags with damp long fiber sphagnum. Closed bags 1/2 way and folded them over and placed them in the vegetable crisper for 60 days.
4) Removed all nuts after 60 days and hydrated for 24 hours. None showed root radicles. Planted them in 18s and placed them under lights at a temperature of about 72 degrees. Watered as needed to keep moist.
The following is a preliminary chart. Ignore the red line for now it is currently meaningless.

The blue line shows the number of cells that show top growth. The left axis shows the count. It goes to 133 since that is how many I planted. The right axis is percent. Since 100% on the right axis is 133 on the left axis, you can also read the percentage of nuts planted by using the same blue line and looking at the right axis.
So, when this is done, the blue line will stop at some number presumably less than 133 and less than 100%. There are also vertical lines showing each week since they were planted. If you look at the count shown by the blue line at the beginning of the week and end of the week you can see how many nuts germinated that week.
The other thing that would be good to know is when all of the nuts that are going to germinate have germinated. That is what the red line will eventually show. It is read using the right vertical axis showing percent. Until I give up on nuts germinating (I intend to wait well past when they should be done), I won't know the total that germinate. So for now the red line is meaningless. Once I know that total, the red line will show what percentage of the nuts that will germinate actually have germinated by a given week.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack,
The graph is a great illustration. My question to you - since your experience exceeds mine: How many of your 133 do you believe will germinate / show top growth?
Same question for me: How many of the 72 Chinese Chestnuts will germinate / show top growth?
I will give both of us credit and say we eliminated non-viable nuts along the way. Our percentage should be higher than a beginner who may allow some to slide by. I don't look down on beginners - I have invested great efforts to help them. This discussion/thread/subject will help beginners.
I will predict 126 for you and I will predict 68 for me. These predictions use a 95% estimate on my part.
What are the risk? Too much water. Too little water. A weak chestnut. A container that loses it media for whatever reason. A timer malfunction.
Thanks for your post Jack.

I'm impressed guys... I thought I took things seriously and my wife gives me a hard time about how meticulous I am when it comes to chestnut growing. She says I treat them like they're my babies. In my mind in many ways they are! But I ain't got nothin' on you guys! LOL
BRAVO! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Matt,
I was jealous of how many you grew last year. Your photo before planting is impressive.
Glad I don't have that many holes to dig and I don't have the spare cash to protect the 100s you grew.
I give you to growing blue ribbon for 2015. We are getting a major winter storm for us. Hope my internet stays up - or cabin fever will set in fast.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
The graph is a great illustration. My question to you - since your experience exceeds mine: How many of your 133 do you believe will germinate / show top growth?
Same question for me: How many of the 72 Chinese Chestnuts will germinate / show top growth?
I will give both of us credit and say we eliminated non-viable nuts along the way. Our percentage should be higher than a beginner who may allow some to slide by. I don't look down on beginners - I have invested great efforts to help them. This discussion/thread/subject will help beginners.
I will predict 126 for you and I will predict 68 for me. These predictions use a 95% estimate on my part.
What are the risk? Too much water. Too little water. A weak chestnut. A container that loses it media for whatever reason. A timer malfunction.
Thanks for your post Jack.
==================================
Wayne,
My intent is not to predict what percentage of my nuts will germinate. That does me no good. What will germinate will germinate this year. My intent is to document this particular technique and the timeline for germination. Then in the future others considering what technique to use can compare this technique to the technique someone else uses and decide what works best for them.
I think there are different risks based on the technique used. For my technique the biggest risk is not enough cold stratification. I used the 60 day minimum pretty much guaranteeing I would have no root radicles started. This eliminates the orientation/kinked root radicle issues of germinating in ziplock bags. It eliminates most of the mold issues of forcing above ground. It doesn't require the special setup I used last year to preserve orientation.
There are downsides to all techniques. The downside to my technique is that after the float test, no nuts are eliminated. So, if you compare the number of nuts with top growth that I planted to the number someone who eliminates nuts that don't have root radicles before planting, you would expect a much lower germination rate. However, if you compare the number of nuts we both put into the fridge and counted the number with top growth, they should be much closer to the same percent.
I think with the technique I used this year, I'm guessing I'll have top growth start with 70%-80% of the chestnuts I planted. I would expect lower for the DCOs.
I like the technique I used in the case where you have plenty of 18s available.
Keep in mind my long-term objective this year. I plan to use the technique shown in this thread: <https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70361
Since I plan to do two transplants this season, 18 to 1 gal and then 1 gal to 3 gal, I'm limited by the number of RB3s I have, not 18s. In fact, I have many trays of 18s I'm not using yet.
This technique is probably less appropriate for folks further north. In my area, the last threat of frost is about April 15th. So, I want transplant my chestnuts to 1 gal RB2 and remove the nuts in the process about the time I'm ready to move them outdoors. This stratification/germination technique gets me top growth starting as fast as possible so m trees will have been in 18s the right amount of time when I transplant. Allowing them to develop root radicles in the fridge delays top growth. That may be fine depending on your location.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Today is Day 14.
Jan 22, 2016 I have 34 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth.
This is 34 / 72 for 47%. I hope we keep increasing each day.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Today is Day 14.
Jan 22, 2016 I have 34 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth.
This is 34 / 72 for 47%. I hope we keep increasing each day.
Thanks for reading this thread.
==================================
Wayne,
When did you put those 72 into cold stratification? Mine that only had 60 days took almost 2 weeks before I started seeing any top growth. Clearly to be at 47% in 2 weeks is much faster than mine. I'm wondering if the additional time stratifying makes the difference.
Thanks,
Jack

I have Oct 18th, I retired on Tuesday October 20th.
All of these Chinese Chestnuts were selected from trees that dropped in mid October. I had a nice friend from Benton, Illinois sent me a nut wizard and I was able to increase my collection rate by 300% with less muscle soreness.
So October 18th is when they hit the cold. I hope this helps. I count it as 82 days cold stratify.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I have Oct 18th, I retired on Tuesday October 20th.
All of these Chinese Chestnuts were selected from trees that dropped in mid October. I had a nice friend from Benton, Illinois sent me a nut wizard and I was able to increase my collection rate by 300% with less muscle soreness.
So October 18th is when they hit the cold. I hope this helps. I count it as 82 days cold stratify.
==================================
That might explain the faster germination even though they did not have root radicles showing when you planted them, they were probably close. Mine after 60 days of cold stratification were probably much further from producing root radicles. So, it looks like the extra 22 days of germination bought you about 7 days of faster top growth after planting. Looking at the graph, it looks like it was a about 3 weeks before I hit that percentage.
I presume the extra days of cold stratification you had will buy you a higher total germination rate. I think mine are slowing down. I only picked up 2 more today so I'm at 64% now. I hope I hit at least 70%.
Thanks,
Jack

I have/had 7 express 18 trays with chinese chestnuts in my greenhouse in my basement. After an electrical cord vs dog incident, my greenhouse came crashing down. I had a couple stems break on some that were 6 inches tall. Most of them seemed to make it out OK. Pretty much every one had to be replanted as they came out of the cells and the dirt spilled out. There were some really nice root systems on most of them. I'm not near my notebook right now, but I'll try to get some pics and post my numbers and dates.
I'm just lucky it wasn't worse. Most of my chestnuts are 2 inches tall, a handful are taller.

Jaximus,
I am certainly crossing my fingers for your success. For those that don't know, he is one of our participants in the One Thousand Chestnut Trees Project.
Additionally, he is an experienced seedling guy. Seven trays means 126 potential seedlings.
Jack, I will be shocked if you don't beat 70%. When they stall, I would suggest, you soak some of them about 6 hours to see if that will kick start them. At this point, based upon my 2015 and 2016 growing experience, I think/believe Chinese Chestnuts do better with 90 days cold stratification than if they only get approximately 60 days cold stratification. Jack is dealing with Dunstans. The size of a chestnut is another factor I wish I had a better read on regarding germination. I believe moisture in the chestnut is an important factor. Jack and I do soaking our nuts to address moisture.
I am tracking these four trays (72 Chinese Chestnuts). I don't know how many chestnuts I will wind up putting in my grow box at this point. I have some DCOs that are higher priority for me. I am hoping for slow germination of some of my chestnuts in the process. I have hopes of starting some chestnuts outside in April similar to how our friend MattPatt grew his in 2015.
Once again, Jaximus I am pulling for you man.

just got home from work and had to check on my babies. i gave them a good watering after i had replanted them last night and gave them another quick shot of water. it appears that aside the 3 that i found with broken stems, the rest perked up pretty well.
what i have noticed that is interesting, though, is that 4 of the seedlings are fluorescent green, while the rest are reddish. anyone else see this?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
just got home from work and had to check on my babies. i gave them a good watering after i had replanted them last night and gave them another quick shot of water. it appears that aside the 3 that i found with broken stems, the rest perked up pretty well.
what i have noticed that is interesting, though, is that 4 of the seedlings are fluorescent green, while the rest are reddish. anyone else see this?
==================================
First, sorry for your loss. The coloration is quite typical. I have not found it to be meaningful. Some start with a redish stem and leaves and others much more green with no red.
Wayne,
With an approach that germinates nuts on top of the mix the soaking technique may be productive. I have always had significantly greater mold issues when I germinate mine on top of the mix. I always cover mine. The upside is that mold issues are more rare this way and the nuts don't dry out, but the downside is that you can't remove and soak them without putting them at risk. With this below-grade planting method, I can't tell if a nut has germinated, only if it has produced top growth.
Thanks,
jack

Today is Jan. 24th. This is Day 16 in the grow box. I re-organized the seedlings based upon height.
I have 40 with top growth out of 72 Chinese Chestnuts. <font color="Red">This is 56%[/color] and a good thing. Each day more are showing top growth.
I have a photo that shows the lights on a tilt to accommodate the seedlings that are gaining height while the opposite end of the tray - we have no germination.
Thanks for reading this thread.

 

[yoderjac]

Well the nut that put out the growth with no leafs started turning brown. Pulled it out and the radical was covered in mold. Roots also had mold. Too bad as the tree has a massive root system.

When I checked my 18s today, for the first time since I saw the first cell with top growth, there were no new trees with top growth.
I thought I'd post a new chart. The other charts I posted showed the accumulating number of cells with top growth over time. This one shows how much top growth appeared on a give day. It is not quite what I expected. I expected a bit more of a bell shaped curve. Here it is:

Thanks,
Jack

Today is Jan. 26, 2016. My Chinese Chestnuts continue to show germination is increasing.
On Day 18, I have 46 out of 72 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth. This is<font color="Red"> 64%[/color] which is good to see.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Today is Jan. 27th. This is day 19 in the grow box.
I count 51 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth out of 72.
This is 71%. Germination continues to appear each day.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Ok, time for some predictions for germination percentage by Feb 1. I say 86%

Lak,
Jack would not play on predicting, but I think that is part of the fun. I will predict I see 12 more with top growth by 5 PM on Feb 1st.
That would be 87.5% if my math is accurate. I feel out of 72 for whatever reason I may see 5 or 6 that are zeros. I will give them a long time before I pronounce death on them.
I water every two days and this seems to jog the numbers upward. The good news - with these numbers I don't have some mistake on my part that hurts my efforts. Mistakes by us can put us out of the normal zone and cost dearly. Your prediction and mine are almost identical. Hope one of us is right (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Lak,
Jack would not play on predicting, but I think that is part of the fun. ...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
I think I'll fall short of my prediction for my own:
<i>I think with the technique I used this year, I'm guessing I'll have top growth start with 70%-80% of the chestnuts I planted.</i>
I haven't hit 70% yet...
Thanks,
jack

Jack,
I may jinx myself, but currently I am gaining about 4 per day for the last week or so. Thursday morning will be a water day for me.
I would expect that to help my progress. Thus far, my germination is more compacted than last season. Part of that is because I got a 30 tree chestnut grove to pick from and I have been very selective in what went into my fridge this year.
I don't plan on planting all of my chestnuts seedlings on my farm - protection expense is an issue. I am a one man operation - so financial resources impact the &quot;plant in the field numbers&quot;.

it seems i survived the greenhouse collapse with only a minor setback. 4 were ultimately damaged. 3 had the stems break off above the first set of little dangly things (not leaves). those 3 appear to have buds swelling at the little things. one broke below those and that one appears to have fizzled.
i planted in 2 batches, the first was on 12/29 and i planted 4 trays, 72 chestnuts. as of today, i have 67 with above ground growth for 93%. they were planted once the radical was 1/8&quot; long. so that upped my odds. for curiousity sake, i did a tiny bit of digging and found 2 of the 5 had the stem started, it just had broke ground yet. so 96%. 1 had about a 3/4&quot; taproot that was mushy and brown at the tip. the remaining 2 were moldy at the radical. it alpears those hit a pellet of lime right away.
the second batch was planted on 1/15. i was less concerned with the radical at that point and planted any that had started to crack. as of now, none of them have top growth, but i didnt disturb the soil to check.
i have 4 chestnuts in the fridge still that have shown no swelling/cracking/radical yet. they will replace the ones that molded, but im not holding my breath.
i planted my chestnuts in a custom mix and then covered the nut with 1/4&quot; of pure peat moss. i didnt want any osmocote/fertilizer/perlite/lime on the soil surface.

Man I really like your numbers on the Dec 29th group. I hope my 72 arrive close to what you are seeing. The difference for me, none of mine had shown a radicle when I pop them into the 18s then into the grow box.
Really makes me feel good since I collected what you are growing into seedlings. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
You go man!

im not anticipating nearly that percentage for the second batch. my guess is that they will be more sluggish, but its hard to tell. i got nuts from 2 different batches from you, some one 9/15 and the second batch was 10/2. most of thr 9/15 batch was planted on 12/29 and most of the 10/2 batch was the second planting.

Jaximus,
In 2015 I learned that the sluggish or stragglers can be among your best seedlings. I had three that were top notch seedlings and the squirrels killed two of them in my yard.
So keep an open mind about the sluggish group - some of them will impress where they wind up.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
I may jinx myself, but currently I am gaining about 4 per day for the last week or so. Thursday morning will be a water day for me.
I would expect that to help my progress. Thus far, my germination is more compacted than last season. Part of that is because I got a 30 tree chestnut grove to pick from and I have been very selective in what went into my fridge this year.
I don't plan on planting all of my chestnuts seedlings on my farm - protection expense is an issue. I am a one man operation - so financial resources impact the &quot;plant in the field numbers&quot;.
==================================
I'm guessing that I'm done. Chestnuts have been stuck at 66% for 4 days now. I'll be lucky to get just a couple more at this point. I have urgent need for the 18s they are in, so I will watch them for the next week or two before giving up on them.
I'm guessing that your better rates are largely due to your longer cold stratification period. The suggest time is 60 to 90 days. My guess is that if one goes the full 90 days, the only duds would be bad nuts or mold issues. At 60 days, I'm guessing some nuts just didn't fully stratify accounting for the lower percentage.
I'm very happy with my results. They fit m plan well. I eventually plan to cull down to less than 50 trees, so I have plenty of room for that.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack your percent is for Dunstans. Jaximus and mine are Chinese Chestnuts all from the same trees.
You know you will have a fine group when you limit your number to 50 trees. I agree 100% with the cold stratification time period. It is certain that the closer we get to 90 days the better our results. Moisture level of the chestnuts and size of the nuts seem to be extremely important. I believe 34 degrees is much better than 38 degrees.
One of the things I pay great attention to is I give all of my chestnuts the squeeze test to determine their firmness. I just cull soft chestnuts because they seem to be dudes and candidates for mold or rot.
I have 101 sawtooth that I got from LLC out of Georgia. They are slow to germinate in the fridge. I am concerned that I will make the right decisions. I have certain senderaos that will be bordered by these sawtooths on one side and Chinese chestnuts on the opposite side of the lane. Sawtooth are a major part of our hunting plan.
So I will be searching for assistance with sawtooths toward the beginning of March. I hope to move out my AC and let the sawtooths occupy those 72 container locations in the grow box.
Thanks for all of your post Jack. You have helped this rookie avoid so many bad choices. As we know, seedlings are a numbers game. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I have 101 sawtooth that I got from LLC out of Georgia. They are slow to germinate in the fridge. I am concerned that I will make the right decisions. I have certain senderaos that will be bordered by these sawtooths on one side and Chinese chestnuts on the opposite side of the lane. Sawtooth are a major part of our hunting plan.
==================================
I'm even more of a rookie than you, but I can give some insight on the LLC sawtooths. I started my first batch of seeds at the end of December - Dunstan, chinese, American, &quot;wildlife&quot; chestnuts, LLC's sawtooths, Gobbler sawtooths and Bur Oak. For all practical purposes, nothing had germinated in the fridge.
The oaks - and sawtooths in particular - have germinated easily. The Gobbler's have readily put on top growth the fastest, but the sawtooths have been no sweat to get to produce a radicle and then taproot.
My luck with the chestnuts has been entirely the opposite. I have one Dunstan that's rocking and rolling with strong top growth and one chinese that's produced a radicle. Other than that, nada. That's out of about 30 chestnuts.
The moral to the the story? I don't think you'll have anything to worry about with the Sawtooth's. Mine from LLC were the last of all of my nuts to go into the fridge, btw. Two weeks later than some and up to 6 weeks later than others.

With my sawtooths I did several years ago I just kept them in the fridge to get the required stratification period. Then popped them in some 18's and covered with saran wrap to create a green house affect and had 100% germination. They were very easy to germinate. I had some left over and it took them about 6 months to form a radical in the fridge.
Question on my chestnuts. Is it common for top growth to be all over the chart? I have a few that grew 6&quot; before leafing and some leafing with only 2&quot; of top growth.
thanks
todd

I had to split my one pound of Chestnut Ridge of Pike Co Dunstan chestnuts 47 Total into 2 separate groups because of a delay over the holidays in my Rootmaker Pots order. I have also had a pronounced difference in top growth and germination between group 1 and group 2.
In group 1 I have 97 % 28 of 29 at 24 days These are the trees in the nearest tray, and along the side that are taller than lights. There is one of the second group in the near tray.
MISSING PICTURE - (Original post had picture as an attachment rather than a link)
Views: 134
The second batch was 78 % 14 of 19 at 24 days <font color="Black"> but a lot less vigorous growth. If you look closely at the picture the second group has silver markings on the edges of the pots there are several in the right rear corner which are the best top growth of the second group.[/color] I only put them on this tray after they are leafed out, as they are on a 16/8 light schedule with a heat mat at night. (See my post in the heat mat and thermometers thread for additional info.)
I believe the better growth and germination is the result of creating a better germination environment and producing a superior radical before planting. The first group I germinated in a clear plano type box used for fishing lures that was filled with damp sphagnum moss and placed on my heated garage floor. It kept the nuts orientated in the right direction and the radical came out at a perfect 90 degree angle. My second batch did not start germination in the plano type box but in the storage medium of the stratification process in the fridge. I had no radicals showing when pulled from refrigerator on 12/27/2015. The chestnuts that did not germinate were very large and round in nature. I do not know if that meant anything or not . This is my first time at this, I thank everybody for all the shared information.

Buck,
Your two groups were a result of a late delivery on growing containers. Your chestnuts are the leggiest chestnuts I have seen. To me that means the distance between the lights and the top of the top growth is too large. I keep my lights as close as a can. I adjust the height of my lights every single day as a rule.
Your germination % are very good/ excellent. Chestnuts can lag on germination - they are just not on the same clock. I believe it has to do with how they were in the bur on the tree - you can see triples, doubles and singles in a bur.
My concern is how they will do in the field if their stems are weak. I run an oscillating fan for 30 minutes each morning to train the stems once they reach significant size. Running it more than 30 minutes put us at risk on drying out the growing media.
I know many guys would like to see that much top growth. Don't fret - what you have going on is good. If you can get your lights closer to soil level in the future - I believe you can avoid part of the tall skinny issue.

DogDoc,
Early on the leave develop is normally wide-ranging. None of what you describe is surprising.
After say 3 weeks of top growth they will begin to level out. It is important to watch the leaves and use this as a guide to add osmocote plus to the top of the media to improve their stem and leave development.
In a tray of 18 there will be strong and tall, the average and a few weak/shorter. I think nature intends it this way.

Buck,
I went back and looked at your photo. Do you have only two bulbs over the 3 by 6 express 18 tray. I have four bulbs over that same tray.
Jack Yoder is the light expert and when I began he had some very technical threads on lighting.
If what I think I see is true - I have twice as much light and my lights are on close with intent.
I know you have that window but I am concerned how much light is driving those chestnuts. I think too little lights makes them reach up for light - thus they get leggy.
My thoughts - be it right or wrong.

 

[yoderjac]

i took some pics

the pic of 32 cell trays are all bur oaks, i have a few new ones popping up each day.
i use 3 sets of 2 bulb shop lights and have my trays turned perpendicular to the lights. with 3 lights, i can get 4 trays. it also gives me a bit more adjust-ability based on stem heights.

Jaximus,
I love your setup. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) You are getting four trays with one less light fixture than how I am setup. I run my lights the same direction as my trays run. You have a different layout on the light and trays.
Your roof - what is under the plastic. My wife forbid me to grow in the house - so I went to the basement. I just might get something in the house similar to your setup. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) Then again I might not. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Your chestnuts are looking great. They are further along than mine are at this point.
You are going to help jack up our Chinese Chestnut count!

my setup is actually a few of the 4 tier mini greenhouses assembled in a more chestnut friendly arrangement. if assembled property, it has 4 shelves that are 27&quot; wide by 19&quot; deep by 12&quot; high. they are real easy to set up as they are just a bunch of pipes and brackets that the pipes just are pushed into. they also have a mesh wire shelf.
i assembled mine to have one normal size tier to get the rootmakers up off the basement floor for better airflow and to keep them warmer. i used the longest pipes for the sides to give me chestnut growing height and room for the lights.
instead of using the plastic shells that come with the greenhouses (as they arent the right size for my configuration) i used a roll of clear plastic house wrap (2 mil). i just panels for each side and then taped them together so if i ever needed to add on or reconfigure my shelving, its just a matter of cutting a few pieces of tape.
then, come spring and i can put plants outside, i can assembly the green houses the proper way and have more room for growing all the other seeds that are packed in my fridge! at that point, all of the plants started inside shouldnt be needing green houses anymore.
i think i have 6 of the greenhouses, but i dont recall for certain as i keep all the parts in a big plastic storage tote.

Jaximus,
Do you have a link for Mini Greenhouse? If anybody wanted one - could they see it online to purchase.
Thanks. I like the portability of your setup.

Jaximus,
Nice setup. Trees are looking good. For lighting I've tried 2 different setups. One has 3 fixtures across 4 trays and the other has 4 fixtures across 6 trays. One issue that I have had that you will also have based on those pictures is that trees on the end rows will bend in toward the light. Each time I water, I reorganize trees. I rotate any tree bending in so it straightens over time.
Best of luck,
Jack

the 2nd batch i planted on 1/15 was 48 chestnuts. today, out of curiosity, i gently moved the soil around to check for a taproot and what was all going on under the soil.
10 had topgrowth, only about 1/2 in long, just barely poking through the soil. 26 more had a taproot. 6 had no taproot (just the nut was cracked open a little bit) but no mold issues. the remaining 6 had a radical started but were moldy. one was beyond saving. the remaining 5 i washed really well and am going to try to soak them and see if i can get something going. the 4 that were still in the fridge are now soaking again as well in hopes of spurring something.
so for those planted on 1/15
10/48 with topgrowth 21%
36/48 had at minimum at taproot 75%</font>
so if none of the molded ones recover, and 6 with no sign of growth are duds and the 4 in the fridge are duds, i will have..
69/72 first batch
36/48 second batch
0/18 mold losses
total of 105/138 for 76% if no further ones germinate
if the 6 without any mold signs and the 4 that were in the fridge germinate, that gives me 10 more. im very doubtful any of the mold ones survive.
so that would be 115/138 for 83%
with that said, i know i tossed a few chestnuts early on in the process as they became black and mushy. i dont recall how many or when. i know a few would repeatedly get moldy, so i had them isolated in their own bags and the mold just kept coming back so i tossed those also. i had a dirt/fertilizer malfunction in the very first planting, which i believe was 2 trays, so 36 nuts (with radicals), and i thought i posted about it somewhere on the forum but i cant seem to find that post. the original number of 176 chestnuts come to mind. i think the first batch of seeds on 9/15 was 52, and then the 2nd 2 boxes were 62 each i think. which would make 176.
so with all of that accounted for, of those that have topgrowth, im at 79/179 for 44.8%
if i count those with radicals, im 105/176 for 60%
i only have 122 chestnuts still remaining in the house (counting 7 with mold issues) so the best i could possibly do is 122/176, 69%
being that this is my first ever experimenting with chestnuts, i will take 60%

heres a link to the menards greenhouses that i have.
http://www.menards.com/main/building...33132361025428
i figured they would be cheaper on amazon, but they werent. i got mine on sale for $10 each after they went on clearance.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Buck,
I went back and looked at your photo. Do you have only two bulbs over the 3 by 6 express 18 tray. I have four bulbs over that same tray.
Jack Yoder is the light expert and when I began he had some very technical threads on lighting.
If what I think I see is true - I have twice as much light and my lights are on close with intent.
I know you have that window but I am concerned how much light is driving those chestnuts. I think too little lights makes them reach up for light - thus they get leggy.
My thoughts - be it right or wrong.
==================================
Wpbdeer
MISSING PICTURE - (Original post had picture as an attachment rather than a link)
Views: 192

That is a little too close. Fluorescents aren't real hot, but you still need a couple inches of air gap to the lights. A short period won't hurt. There are times during growth spurts where I had 2 inches gap at night and the next day when I checked them they were touching. However, if you leave them touching the lights or any length of time, they will dry out and die.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I got a zero increase. I jinxed myself!
I watered them today. Hopefully tomorrow that helps nudge a few more to go looking for sunlight. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
I got a zero increase. I jinxed myself!
I watered them today. Hopefully tomorrow that helps nudge a few more to go looking for sunlight. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Wayne,
I went for 4 days with no change in chestnuts and then picked one more up tonight to take me to 67%. It wouldn't surprise me if I picked up a couple more in the next week or so, but I doubt it will be many.
If you go back to page 2 of this thread and look at that curve I posted, you can that they drop off quickly. I went from 20 per day down to less than 5 per day in a 3 day period. Within 6 days of that, I hit the first of 4 consecutive zero days. The curve shows how the ramp up is slower than the ramp down.
Thanks,
Jack

Today is Jan. 29th. This is day 21 in the grow box.
I count 55 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth out of 72.
This is 76%. Germination continues although it has slowed.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Good news. On Day 22, we have 60 Chinese Chestnuts out of 72 with top growth.
This is an increase of 5 since yesterday. I reorganize some seedlings based upon height and I decided to water more frequently - just not a complete soaking.
So on Jan 30th our percent germination has reached <font color="Red">83%.[/color] Maybe I shook the jinx off - at least for a short period of time.
LakNgulf, we are headed toward your Feb 1st date. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks for reading this thread.

Today is Jan 31st. It is Day #23 in the grow box.
I counted 62 out of 72 with top growth. This is <font color="Red">86%[/color] - which is very pleasing to see this level of germination.
In the grow box, I have positioned the taller seedlings on the back wall. It makes counting easier.
I have a photo with the front light raised out the way in order to get a clear photo of the taller seedlings. I light to use Mylar to get as much light on the stems as possible. The Mylar creates the reflection you see in the photo.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I counted 62 out of 72 with top growth. This is <font color="Red">86%[/color] - which is very pleasing to see this level of germination.
==================================
Hmmmmmmm That sounds like a good number!

I told my wife that you were going to like that post. I need one tomorrow to move it to my prediction.
The trays on the near side are closest to my heat source. I have been rotating the locations of trays to equal temperatures out. However, now I let height rule where they get placed in the box.
I keep them in the fridge about 82 days. None had a radicle on Jan 8th when I put them in the box - now 62 have. I have been fortunate.
Thanks for your prediction. I said I hoped one of us what right.

No, no It is &quot;by Feb 1st&quot;. So I expect you to check them at midnight, and no scratch and release.
Seriously, that is an unreal number and percentage for germination. Good Job!!

I got another today, but I'm still just shy of 70%. Looks like there is a difference between 60 days of stratification like me and 82 like you.
Thanks,
Jack

I'm still sitting on ZERO!! Hoping they pop soon!

Gator,
Are they still in the fridge? All 72 of mine had no radicle on Jan 8th. I put them in the rootmaker 18s and stuck them in the grow box.
If you have any long leaf sphagnum moss wet it and use your grip to wringe out the water. Put some chestnuts in a sandwich bag with this damp moss and stick the bag in a south facing window. Lay them as flat as you can in the bag.
Check them in a couple of days - we are trying to coax them into germination.
If the chestnuts are in the fridge in a bag without any signs of moisture evident in the bag - take all of them out and soak them overnight under water.
When you put them in the water, watch for the floaters. Any floaters that later sink were too dry. If we hydrate them by soaking - many times this triggers the germination process to begin.
Back to damp sphagnum moss in a bag with slight heat - this is the perfect storm to create mold. If we put them in the window we check starting the 2nd day and every day their after. After 5 days, back to the fridge.
I have Chinese chestnuts in three windows right now. Every few days I am pulling 2 to 8 chestnuts out that have a radicle. When I see that the chestnut with a radicles gets placed in the grow box.
I hope my explanation helps. If the chestnuts are too dry - they need an overnight baptism. Gators should like water!
2015 - last year I put chestnuts in the growing media on Feb 1, 2015 which is a year ago to the day. At this point in 2016 I have 62 out of 72 with top growth. It is a process - not an exact science.

 

[yoderjac]

No they are in RM18s. Most of them had a root starting when I planted them they just haven't started any top growth yet.

Gator,
When did you put them in the 18s. What is your light sources, temperature / using heater and how often do you water.
With a radicle showing - it can be 10 to 12 days for top growth to appear. When it appears depends on the questions above.
Nature's way is slow - slower than what we think or want. Good luck.

All this talk about growing and I still have two months before I can start anything outside! I'm starting to get the itch! Come on Spring! I keep telling myself that there's really no justifiable reason for me to start anything indoors given my long growing season here in the South. Not to mention the fact that the only place I could put something up would be in a unheated garage and I'd have to constantly battle with keeping it warm enough among other things. All that being said, it's still tempting! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Matt,
Your backyard is an awesome setup. The rest of us (north of you) have to get a running head start because when you operation cranks up - it is Katie Bar the Door!
I am hopeful on DCO this year. I hear widespread results from growers with good growing experience. So I have the jitters to see what that brings.
Do you have any sequins you would part with?
Thanks for reading this thread.

I'm scaling down by at least half from last year. Maybe more than that. It was just too much. All I have are AC (Ozark and Allegheny), your Chinese and a few Dunstan. Maybe 7-8 trays total. No Sequins to speak of. Wish I had some.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Gator,
When did you put them in the 18s. What is your light sources, temperature / using heater and how often do you water.
With a radicle showing - it can be 10 to 12 days for top growth to appear. When it appears depends on the questions above.
Nature's way is slow - slower than what we think or want. Good luck.
==================================
Looks like they went in the pots the 23rd or 24th of January.
Water, temper, light all the same as years past. I'm sure they will pop soon.

Gator,
That is good to hear. About Thursday or Friday, you can get ready to start tracking the germination. If they were in Jan 23rd, today is the 9th day.
You are approaching the zone. Sounds good to me.
As a guide on Day 12, I had 18% out of 72 that had germinated. That is a reference - so yes you are approaching that time period. Let us know when it gets a head of steam.

86% ?? So what is the prize? I was thinking.......
Three DCOs
Two Dunstans
And a Partridge in a Pear Tree

I am not counting today for you have complete right to claim the prize.
I could spare a couple of Dunstans, but the DCOs are only hopeful at this point. Got a used fridge invested in their success. Your pear trees are better off that mine.
Went hunting on the tender knee - sign you are getting the itch.
I went to City Hall today and got the green light on my greenhouse plan. I have to honor 5 feet on property line as the setback.
My greenhouse will not be as good as what you have but it will take care of my needs. Plastic skin probably 16 by 24.
Could you give us the spread on the super bowl while you are hot (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Could you give us the spread on the super bowl while you are hot (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Is this what you mean by spread?

Here I am walking two miles to lose weight and manage blood sugar and you post that.
That is one fine looking table full of temptation for a diabetic. When do we eat? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I believe Carolina is going to send Peyton off without a second ring. Eli has two but big brother don't. Congratulations on your prediction skills! I will send you something after I decide how many I am planting.
Give your knee time to recovery.

I counted 64 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth out of[COLOR=&quot;Blue&quot;] 72 possible[/color]. Today is Ground Hog's Day, Feb 2nd (you know the Bill Murrary Holiday).
This is day #25 in the grow box.
Our percentage is 89%. I have faith that part of the remaining 8 will join the germination total. I intend to be patient and allow what is natural to occur.
Thanks for reading this thread.

Here is something to think about concerning timing. It looks like you will have between 90% and 100% germination after 82 days of stratification. It looks like I'll have right around 70% with 60 days.
That looks like a 20%-30% improvement with more stratification.
From an objective viewpoint, I would like my trees to be dropping nuts in October and November. I would think that nuts that come from trees that drop latter would have a higher statistical chance of producing trees that drop later.
So, let's look at some dates:
Target date for me to transplant from 18s is my last threat of frost 4/15
So, if I back up 15 weeks from there, we are around Jan 1st. (Note I picked 15 weeks because the recommended transplant is 12-16 but chestnuts don't germinate instantaneously when you remove them from the fridge.)
If we back up 60 days from there we get to roughly Nov 1st for entering stratification.
If instead we back up 90 days we get to roughly October 1st.
I'm sure for most folks, it takes time from when the nuts are harvested until we receive them and get them refrigerated. So, when was the nut ready to drop? Pretty early for 90 days and not bad for 60 days.
So, for folks like Wayne that have the opportunity to select and collect nuts, perhaps a good strategy would be to wait and collect nuts from the latest dropping trees, then stratify them for only 60 days and accept the lower germination rates, and end up with potentially later dropping trees.
Just thinking out loud...
Jack

Jack,
In the 30 tree Chinese Chestnut Grove I watched the different trees hold their burrs and drop at different times.
I have about 5 trees that were the last to drop. I with full intent, selected late droppers from those late trees. They had some of the prettiest chestnuts.
All of these 72 I am tracking were Late Droppers. I fully intend to select the choice seedlings out of this group for my farm.
I will mix them in with other Chinese Chestnuts but we believe down the road we have a plan that helps our October bowhunting.
All of that work where I shared with other people, I still have to take care of my son and grandkids future hunting. I hope I am around to see this plan work out.

I'm hoping to do something similar with the few Buck IV nuts that I was fortunate enough to obtain two years ago. I have a special little spot set aside for them that's secluded away from everything. The idea is that they will pollinate each other and if the late dropping gene is present, pass it on to their offspring. Of course, they are only two year old trees at this point so it'll be 4-5 years before I know if they are late dropping or not. My guess is that they are but only time will tell.
Matt

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
In the 30 tree Chinese Chestnut Grove I watched the different trees hold their burrs and drop at different times.
I have about 5 trees that were the last to drop. I with full intent, selected late droppers from those late trees. They had some of the prettiest chestnuts.
All of these 72 I am tracking were Late Droppers. I fully intend to select the choice seedlings out of this group for my farm.
I will mix them in with other Chinese Chestnuts but we believe down the road we have a plan that helps our October bowhunting.
All of that work where I shared with other people, I still have to take care of my son and grandkids future hunting. I hope I am around to see this plan work out.
==================================
Wayne,
What do you mean by late dropping? When I say late dropping I'm referring to November. At the beginning of the thread you said you pulled the out of stratification on 1/8/2016 and later said they were stratified for 82 days. Even if you put them in cold storage the day you picked them, they would have dropped mid-October.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
I'm hoping to do something similar with the few Buck IV nuts that I was fortunate enough to obtain two years ago. I have a special little spot set aside for them that's secluded away from everything. The idea is that they will pollinate each other and if the late dropping gene is present, pass it on to their offspring. Of course, they are only two year old trees at this point so it'll be 4-5 years before I know if they are late dropping or not. My guess is that they are but only time will tell.
Matt
==================================
I have a couple AU Buck IVs in my cold room right now. They actually produced 4 chestnuts on the deck last year I unfortunately didn't look at the bags closely when I planted my Dunstans and they got planted along with the Dunstans. So, I don't know which ones came from the AU Buck IVs. Dagnabbit!
My original thought was the same as yours, plant two together away from others and let them pollenate each other. I found out that it doesn't work that way. In order to ensure genetic diversity, most chestnut trees won't self-pollenate. Since all AU Buck IVs are clonally identical just grown on different roots, they won't pollenate each other. They need to be pollenated by another tree.
So, with that in mind, I'm planning on planting my AU Buck III and IV together. Yes, that means half the genetics will come from the IIIs but statistically, some of the nuts should produce trees that retain the late drop characteristic.
I'm half considering keeping them at home for another year in the 3 gal RBs they are in. I would probably sacrifice some growth keeping them in 3 gals but I don't think I could plant practically from anything much bigger. This would give me first dibs on the nuts rather than the critters.
By the way, I don't know the mechanism of self-fertility avoidance. It could be timing in which case one may be able to collect and hand pollenate. It might be worth looking into.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack,
I tracked 35 Chinese Chestnut trees in four locations and none of them were still holding in November. Some of them were 90 or 95 finished when November got here.
To me I don't call that November.
Hope this response helps. If I get a Chinese Chestnut that drops in October in TN, I am in the chips on bow season. That cranks my engine.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Jack,
I tracked 35 Chinese Chestnut trees in four locations and none of them were still holding in November. Some of them were 90 or 95 finished when November got here.
To me I don't call that November.
Hope this response helps. If I get a Chinese Chestnut that drops in October in TN, I am in the chips on bow season. That cranks my engine.
==================================
Wayne,
That is typical and what makes the AU Buck IV pretty unique. The hope is that one of us finds an odd ball un protected tree that hold nuts well into November. We definitely need those October droppers as well!
Matt,
It look like the self-pollination avoidance mechanism is genetic, so one couldn't even pollinate them by hand. I found a pretty good reference on chestnut pollination: <Chestnut Pollination Reference
Thanks,
Jack

I counted 65 Chinese Chestnuts with top growth out of 72 possible. Today is Feb 3rd.
This is day #26 in the grow box. Each chestnuts was put in the grow box on Jan 8th.
Our percentage is 90%. It is my intent to be patient with those that are yet to germinate.
Thanks for reading this thread.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Wayne,
That is typical and what makes the AU Buck IV pretty unique. The hope is that one of us finds an odd ball un protected tree that hold nuts well into November. We definitely need those October droppers as well!
Matt,
It look like the self-pollination avoidance mechanism is genetic, so one couldn't even pollinate them by hand. I found a pretty good reference on chestnut pollination: <Chestnut Pollination Reference
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
That's interesting Jack.. Hmm.. so maybe my little plan won't work then. If this is true, the nuts I received are more than likely a cross between a Buck IV and whatever else was nearby. I guess my only option would be to plant these trees and not worry about keeping them seperate. Once I find out if they are late dropping I can try grafting with some Chinese root stock. I was going to try the grafting thing anyway but would have been nice to get some nuts with the late dropping characteristics as well.
Matt

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
That's interesting Jack.. Hmm.. so maybe my little plan won't work then. If this is true, the nuts I received are more than likely a cross between a Buck IV and whatever else was nearby. I guess my only option would be to plant these trees and not worry about keeping them seperate. Once I find out if they are late dropping I can try grafting with some Chinese root stock. I was going to try the grafting thing anyway but would have been nice to get some nuts with the late dropping characteristics as well.
Matt
==================================
Yep. From what I've heard, grafting chestnuts is possible but challenging. There are often compatibility issues. Since AU Bucks are Chinese, hopefully rejection won't be an issue. The best bet might be to graft scions from the latest dropping first generation seedlings from your AU Bucks to seedlings from their own nuts.
Thanks,
Jack

as of today, i did a good soaking water and rearrangement, i have 109 chestnuts with top growth and only 2 un-germinated nuts. they are soaking again to hopefully pop them. the tallest is 13 inches and started the 4th set of leaves
an update on the 3 that were broken off during the greenhouse collapse. it appears that 2 will survive. the 3rd is questionable. one has started a new stem out of one of those little things. its about 1/2&quot; long. my guess is that the little things on the stems are meant to allow for regrowth if the leaves are browsed off. i moved them from express 18s to a regular 18 tray and the rootballs were quite large already considering they havent had leaves yet.

I learned last year that &quot;Chinese Chestnuts&quot; are just plain ole' tough. I would exclude the three that got damaged and not figure them in the germination percentage.
So if you throw them out (even though they may make a tree) I would figure how many chestnuts I put in the growing media and how many have top growth now.
If I followed correctly you have a super germination %. I certainly recognize you have great skill at growing seedlings and this % is proof.
Thanks for sharing.

Today was a scheduled watering day - all trays pulled out, inspected and watered extremely well.
Our count has remained at 65 with top growth out 72 Chinese Chestnuts.
Hopefully, something rises to find the light. We shall see.

Even if not those are great results

wayne,
you should very gently disturb the soil around the radical end of the nut for the telltale 'split' of the root where there are 3 distinct portions. if you dont see the split yet, try gently wiggling the nut to see if the taproot is established. if its not, you might have the brown colored rot/dessication of thd taproot tip, or mold at the radical/nut union.
i dont recall your watering method (topical or dunking) for the 18's, but ive been doing a mix of both. i would just HATE for one of those 'ungerminated' nuts to have mold or rot and spread it to the others.
good luck!
-jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
wayne,
you should very gently disturb the soil around the radical end of the nut for the telltale 'split' of the root where there are 3 distinct portions. if you dont see the split yet, try gently wiggling the nut to see if the taproot is established. if its not, you might have the brown colored rot/dessication of thd taproot tip, or mold at the radical/nut union.
i dont recall your watering method (topical or dunking) for the 18's, but ive been doing a mix of both. i would just HATE for one of those 'ungerminated' nuts to have mold or rot and spread it to the others.
good luck!
-jack
==================================
I've never had mold issues spread from one cell to another. Once trees produce top growth mold doesn't seem to be a significant issue.

Jaximus,
I believe my issue is proximity to my heat source. As the 72 developed at the different rates, I reorganized based upon height of the seedlings. My belief is that I want to reward / protect the seedlings that are worthy.
Those that are weak or slow I move them closer to the heater. That puts them in a position of getting too dry if my timing and amount of water just don't gee haw for that nut's needs.
My experiences has taught me it is a numbers game. While I treat them the best I know how, some of them just will not survive. I have no mold issues.
Mentally got my fingers crossed to reach 68 out of 72. Have told myself repeated to be more patient this go round and I hope I can do that. I have reached 90% which is rewarding to me.
I usually don't dig or prowl in the soil until after I pronounce a death sentence. I have some Alleg' Chink' that are super slow to germinate - I am down to 3 or 4. Overall it appears the % of Chinese Chestnuts and AC are going to be almost identical on success out of 72 possibilities for both. This is how the numbers game works for me.
Thanks to anyone that reads this thread.

I have a damaged seedling that I need to prune - at least I believe that is what I should do.
It has been hit at some time and you can see from the photo it has a 90 degree deformity. I think I should prune it right below the red arrow?
1. Do you think I should prune it?
2. If yes, prune it now or wait. It appears it is about to throw some leaves at the top side.
Jack, Jaximus, MattPatt, CAS, Lakngulf and any others please share your thoughts.

Wayne,
Cull it now or prune it and cull it later. You hit the nail on the head when you said it is a numbers game. Some won't germinate, some will germinate and be deformed, some will grow well for a while and fail to thrive, but most will flourish.
That tree in the pic may live, but I doubt it will do well. When I first started, I was tempted to plant everything. My thinking was, &quot;who knows, even these suboptimal trees may eventually produce.&quot; I've learned. Any tree I plant that is poor is taking resources from an other tree that will produce much more. Those resources are time and money spent caring for, planting, protecting, and maintaining the tree. It also takes up a spot in the field that could have a much better tree.
I started with the shotgun approach. Plant as many as possible with as little protection as possible and overwhelm the deer. I even planted many directly from 18s with minimal protection.
My approach has changed. I can handle about 50 chestnut a year from larger containers. Those will be the biggest and best 50 and get full protection. I will cull even perfectly good trees that are not the most aggressive to get down to that number, so I would just cull a tree like you show in the picture immediately.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

ive got a pretty bad headache today so my vision is blurry or that picture is kinda blurry?
im not sure if im seeing what i think i see? just under the red arrow, on that sid of the trunk, is there a bud? if there is a bud, then it may survive, but as jack said, you are going to be occupying resources/space for it.
here are pics of my 3 damaged ones.

these 3 all broke above the tiny little things where new buds can develop. it looks like yours broke below this point. i had one that broke in a similar area toward the very beginning that i culled. i plan to keep these 3 in the 18s for a while, they have some pretty massive root systems, and probably plant direct from the 18s. im <i>probably</i> too far north for chestnuts to survive the winter their first year, but i plan to plant a few of the weaker trees from 18s direct and use them to 'test' my theory. i already have them in 18s, and i dont need the space for anything else, so im going to ride them out as im already as invested as i will ever be in those particular ones, and if they survive the winter great, if not, nature culled them for me.
my approach is very similar to jacks, run the best trees through all the different size rootmakers. i have thirty 1 gallons and ten 3 gallons, the rest will be used as 'experiments' for my climate.
back to your question, i would probably cull that one right now.

I put my Chinese Chestnuts in the growing media on Jan 8th. Today is Feb 8th - so one month later I have
67 with top growth out of 72 for <font color="Red">93%.[/color]
I am very pleased. I damaged one of my seedlings and it did germinate with top growth but I am going to pronounce the death sentence on it.
A photo of it showed a 90 degree crook in the stem. That loss is operator error. If nothing changes - then I will have 66 seedlings out 72 chestnuts.
I hope to get one or two more but this is the last post on my top growth time frames.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I put my Chinese Chestnuts in the growing media on Jan 8th. Today is Feb 8th - so one month later I have
67 with top growth out of 72 for <font color="Red">93%.[/color]
I am very pleased. I damaged one of my seedlings and it did germinate with top growth but I am going to pronounce the death sentence on it.
A photo of it showed a 90 degree crook in the stem. That loss is operator error. If nothing changes - then I will have 66 seedlings out 72 chestnuts.
I hope to get one or two more but this is the last post on my top growth time frames.
==================================
Congrats! I wouldn't give up just yet. I've been amazed at how every now and then I get another one.
My current count:
AC: 7 or 70%
DCO: 21 or 30%
Dunstan: 96 or 72%
Thanks,
Jack

ive been super busy working the past few days but i did inspect the chestnuts today. im out of town tomorrow, so wednesday will be a water/rearrange day.
i have about 3 that look like this, i dont really like it very much. same dirt, same watering, and i mix up where the plants are under the lights, so its not a lighting issue.

im gonna hit everything with a light dose of transplant solution when i water next. any ideas?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
ive been super busy working the past few days but i did inspect the chestnuts today. im out of town tomorrow, so wednesday will be a water/rearrange day.
i have about 3 that look like this, i dont really like it very much. same dirt, same watering, and i mix up where the plants are under the lights, so its not a lighting issue.

im gonna hit everything with a light dose of transplant solution when i water next. any ideas?
==================================
It looks like the beginning of iron chlorosis to me. Some trees seem more susceptible than others. What water are you using? It happened to me several years ago. It was not all trees. I seem to be able to get away with city water in 18s but not in RB2s. It simply could be the timing. If they can't take up iron because of pH not all trees will be affected simultaneously. Some trees will still be drawing nutrition from the nuts when others have moved more toward extracting it from the medium.
I have since gone to rain water and have not seen the problem again. Rain water is slightly acidic. Adding a little micromax can't hurt, but they need some acidity to absorb some nutrients. Someone on another thread reported fast success with oaks by using miracid fertilizer. I would be careful using anything but slow release osmocote on trees in 18s.
Thanks,
Jack

I was guessing iron as my fertilizer/nutrient program is a little on the low side for iron and I might have missed calculated the amount of lime and over limed. So i have low iron with a pH thats probably high. I've been using city water, but since I moved in october I haven't had it tested yet. We just got a bunch of snow dumped on us, so I will probably start melting snow
Thanks!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
I was guessing iron as my fertilizer/nutrient program is a little on the low side for iron and I might have missed calculated the amount of lime and over limed. So i have low iron with a pH thats probably high. I've been using city water, but since I moved in october I haven't had it tested yet. We just got a bunch of snow dumped on us, so I will probably start melting snow
Thanks!
==================================
Generally if the pH is low, adding iron won't help. It is probably present but can't be absorbed. I would start shoveling and stop using city water.
Just to give you some ideas for the future, here is how I'm setup:
I have a rain spout diverter that I use to divert water into a 200 gal water tote during the non-freezing months. I have it covered with a tarp to keep light and thus algae out. It is connected via hoses to utility pump that is connected with hoses to a wand type sprayer. I also have Rubbermaid type containers on my deck. I use the pump to keep them full. When I have the time and back for it, I dunk the 1 and 3 gal RB2s to water them. I have some small wire racks that I put across the tubs and set the watered containers on for them to drain. I only top water 18s and bags.
When the threat of a hard frost is close, I change my setup. I have two 30 gal plastic barrels from gly that I repurposed. I use the pump to fill both of them from the 200 gal tote. I also take 2 of the Rubbermaid containers indoors. I also fill about a dozen 5 gal buckets with water. I then change the diverter to avoid the tote and I drain any water left in the tote for winter. I don't want it to freeze and crack. I disconnect the pump and take it indoors. I reconnect it to one of the 30 gal barrels and pump from it. I took a two 5 gal buckets and drilled a hole in the bottom and used a PVC fitting and short length of pipe. These buckets sit on the 30 gal drums with the pipe sticking through the bung hole into the bucket. I use a wand to water all my 18s indoors and still use the dunk method for RB2s. As I use water from the 30 gal drum, I start pouring from the 5 gal buckets into the funnel bucket on top of the drum to refill it.
When we get snow, I start shoveling to refill 5 gal buckets and bring them in to melt. I keep shoveling every day until I've filled my capacity since I never know when I'll loose the snow cover in my area.
When the weather breaks, I take the Rubbermaid tubs outside on my deck and use the pump to fill them from the 30 gal drums. Summer can get dry, so I take the empty 30 gal drums out to my deck. I then take the pump back out and hook it up to the 200 gal water tote and change the diverter back. When we get heavy spring rain, I'll fill up the 30 gals.
There are years when there are short periods during the summer when I run out of rain water. When that happens, I use city water as a backup. I'm not using it long enough to have an ill effect on the trees.
It took me quite a while to get all this setup. It only cost a couple hundred bucks and has worked out very well.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I moved up north in October for work, just so happens its closer to the hunting land, but I'm stuck in a rental for at least this summer. Once I find a house I plan to set up an outdoor greenhouse and a water system.
I guess I'll be shoveling snow now. I might try some Epsom salt to help the pH. And look into iron supplements.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
I moved up north in October for work, just so happens its closer to the hunting land, but I'm stuck in a rental for at least this summer. Once I find a house I plan to set up an outdoor greenhouse and a water system.
I guess I'll be shoveling snow now. I might try some Epsom salt to help the pH. And look into iron supplements.
==================================
If you plan to start trees during the winter, be sure to include artificial lighting in your green house. This thread illustrates the issues of just using sunlight in the winter: <Natural vs Artificial light
In one of Dr. Whitcomb's papers he warns about the negative effects on root system development.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

You guys are all way more knowledgeable about this than I will ever be, but here is my timeline so far:
January 29th - I remembered some guy sent me a bunch of chestnuts. They were still in the package, in the back of the refrigerator. Pulled them out and 2 of the seeds have a little thing sticking out of them (radical?). Soaked about 50 chestnuts in water overnight, along with some sphagnum moss.
January 30th - I went to a Worm's Way outlet and got 100 one quart grow bags, some 1:1:1 mix the guy said would be good for starting trees from seed, and 5 trays with plastic dome covers. Came home and planted the now 6 seeds that had a radical showing. Remaining seeds placed in perforated ziploc bags with saturated moss. Placed under a conventional lamp during the day. It smells funny.
February 1st through 8th - Most of remaining nuts have &quot;popped&quot; and been placed in grow bags for a grand total of 40 (8 per tray). Don't hate me, but that's all the room I have in the big bay window in the front of my house, which faces southeast and gets great morning sun. Remaining nuts will have to do the best they can elsewhere in the house.
Notes: The grow medium is very light and fluffy. I found it best to fill the bags right up to the top because once you water, it settles quite a bit. I figured out that placing the nut about 1&quot; below the surface, before watering, results in the top of the nut being just about flush with the surface after watering. I'm hoping this is acceptable.
It was exciting to see so many of the nuts put out a little root. I know there are untold numbers of seeds that do this every year, but I will never stop thinking of it as a miracle; a sign of a higher power, even. You can keep your science on this one, I think seeds and nuts are amazing. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I have learned various things about growing chestnuts from seed that I never thought I would know, like it can take 10-14 days before you see any sign of an actual tree coming out of the soil. I wish it took less time because I genuinely feel like I don't know what I'm doing and want to see some growth! At the same time, I was telling myself I'd be happy to get 10 or 12 of the nuts to germinate and now I'm looking at 40 grow bags and wondering: &quot;Where am I going to put 40 trees?!&quot;
I know that not all 40 of them will turn into actual trees that need to be planted, but I've lined up a few places in Michigan and Indiana who will take the extras I have. I'm expecting to plant about 25 of them on three of our small properties up in Michigan, but the rest will be donated to good homes! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I have pictures of the germinated seeds and grow bags. I will try to post those along with some pictures of the top growth, when I have some to show.
Jason

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
If you plan to start trees during the winter, be sure to include artificial lighting in your green house. This thread illustrates the issues of just using sunlight in the winter: <Natural vs Artificial light
In one of Dr. Whitcomb's papers he warns about the negative effects on root system development.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack,
I have not yet bought any artificial lighting. Convince me it would be worth the expense, despite having my trays in front of a large (4'x8') bay window that faces southeast.
Jason

Jason,
The best thing I read was &quot;light and fluffy&quot; when you talked about the soil. We want soil that drains well. Wet soil is a &quot;killer&quot; for chestnuts.
If you could find one or two reflectors that farmers use on chicks and purchase a light high in K to place over the grow bags that will help their rate of top growth. If some friend has a reflector that you can borrow, that would help on the cost side. I run these type of lights on a timer that was purchased at walmart.
I have two of these over chestnuts I am wanting to germinate in the growing media. My primary containers are rootmaker 18s.
I remember when you first contacted me about this project and then I read this post. You are on the right track. Enjoy the journey.
I don't like my chestnuts too far below the growing surface. Inspect a few of your grow bags to make sure the chestnut is reasonably close to the surface. 1/2 inch would be good. If you can just see the chestnut right at the growing surface - that does not cause me concern. Greater than 1 inch would be too much in my opinion. At home we have risk of freezing the chestnuts - in the outdoors we don't want our chestnuts frozen stiff.
In regard to your numbers, 40 is good when I mailed you approximately 52 chestnuts in a box. The real cost is when we plant - we have got to protect our seedlings against browse from deer and rabbits. Part of the remaining 12 may be used in place of some of the 40 if they don't make it.
I will give away many of my seedlings to people across my state as one of my goals is trees in 95 Tennessee Counties.
Congratulation on your success thus far. Just be patient as nature does what it does.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
Jack,
I have not yet bought any artificial lighting. Convince me it would be worth the expense, despite having my trays in front of a large (4'x8') bay window that faces southeast.
Jason
==================================
Look at the roots of the pawpaws in the link I provided in the previous thread. Here is the quote from Dr. Whitcomb:
<i>&quot;With seeds of species stored over winter, the preferred time to plant is in late winter or early spring. DO NOT plant seeds in a greenhouse in Dec. or Jan. in an attempt to &#8222;get a jump on the season&#8223;. In winter, the days are short, light intensity is low and the sun is low in the southern sky. Seeds that germinate under these conditions create tall, spindly seedlings with poor root systems. &quot;</i>
It may be late enough now to start them in a window in some areas, but it still may be too early in others. The shop light fixtures I use run about $13 each at Lowes.
My other concerns is the 1 quart grow bags. Are they root pruning type bags? If not, you will need to watch for j-hooking and circling roots. I've seen some pictures from folks who tried to start them in larger bag type containers rather than using 18s to get the tap root pruned quickly. They ended up with pretty bad circling roots.
Thanks,
jack

OK, given that I didn't get my seeds going until about a month after ya'll, will I be in good shape? I mean, here it is 2/9 and I don't even have one stalk of top-growth.
While I was able to convince the missus to let me put five flats of trees in the bay window, for all those passing by to see, I think she may put her foot down over grow lights. Also, I just can't see spending hundreds of dollars on specialized lighting for what may be a one-time process for me.
The grow bags have 4&quot;x5&quot; openings and are 9&quot; tall. Is that not sufficient, given that these will be planted roughly 2 months from now? Should I wait and not plant these until after the last normal frost date?

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
OK, given that I didn't get my seeds going until about a month after ya'll, will I be in good shape? I mean, here it is 2/9 and I don't even have one stalk of top-growth.
While I was able to convince the missus to let me put five flats of trees in the bay window, for all those passing by to see, I think she may put her foot down over grow lights. Also, I just can't see spending hundreds of dollars on specialized lighting for what may be a one-time process for me.
The grow bags have 4&quot;x5&quot; openings and are 9&quot; tall. Is that not sufficient, given that these will be planted roughly 2 months from now? Should I wait and not plant these until after the last normal frost date?
==================================
Jason,
First, no specialized lighting is needed. I use shop light fixtures which are $13 a pop at Lowes and regular fluorescent light bulbs. It may be late enough to start them with natural light. I'm not sure. You are probably on the cusp.
Chestnuts put down a deep tap root quickly. If you don't use root pruning containers, you run the risk of the tap root hitting the bottom of the bag and circling. When the tap root is air pruned in a rootmaker 18, it forces secondary and tertiary branching to occur primarily in the last 4&quot; above the prune. So the tiny 18s can keep a tree for 12 to 16 weeks. I don't recommend planting directly from 18s. If you go this route, I recommend at least moving to a 1 gal RB2 after 12 to 16 weeks and then planting them in the fall.
Given your situation, here is what I would do:
First, if you have any nuts that have not yet produced a root radicle, I'd put them back into a ziplock bag with out added moisture and put them in the fridge to see if you can delay them. I'd then direct seed them as soon as you can dig into the ground.
For those that are already actively growing, I'd just consider this a learning experience. I would keep going the way you are for now. When it comes time to plant them, check out the roots closely. If you find the tap root is circling at the bottom of the bag, prune it manually before planting.
Root pruning is not for every situation. Direct seeding can work very well. However growing seedlings in non-root pruning containers can be problematic and I wouldn't recommend it. Circling or j-hooking roots may not present a problem until the tree is much older and they cause a constriction. When a root pruning container system is used, the circling never occurs and the energy used to grow those roots that will be cut manually instead goes into growing a denser root system that will be kept.
So, if you prune any circling roots by hand, you will loose a little potential growth, but you won't have the root constriction issues later in the life of the tree.
This thread gives you an idea of the growth you can get using a root pruning container system if you really want to maximize growth: <Maximizing Growth
This is just for reference. For now, just have fun. Once the addiction of starting trees indoors over the winter sets in, you can worry about the other stuff. My wife was gracious enough to let me take over the basement. I grew her some yellow twig dogwood from cuttings for landscaping around the house. That helped with the permission. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks,
Jack

How hard would it be to transfer the started nuts to these air-pruning bags of which you speak?

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
How hard would it be to transfer the started nuts to these air-pruning bags of which you speak?
==================================
Not hard at all if you catch them before the tap root gets too long. Just pull the nut. In a non-root pruning container, it likely has nothing but tap root so far.
Just fill the cell with Promix bx, Fafard 3b, or equivalent and don't compress it much. Take a toothpick or something and make a small hole in the center for the tap root. Place the nut in one corner with the tap root in the hole. Press on the nut and it will sink into the mix compressing the mix below it a little. Once the nut is below the top of the cell, add some more mix covering the nut with a slight hump in the middle of the cell for settling. Then water it until water is running out of the holes in the bottom of the cell. If the mix settles a bit after watering don't worry.
When you see the first top growth, sprinkle a little Osmocote on top of the cell and cover it with a little mix.
I got my first Rootmaker Express trays from Big Rock Trees. One tray with 18 cells will cost about $25. I'd go with Rootbuilder2 containers for the second root pruning stage (after they have been in the cells for 12-16 weeks). They will run you a little over $5 a piece.
Keep in mind that you don't need to get an RB2 for every tree, only the number you want to plant. You will select your best trees after that 12-16 weeks, transplant them to the RB2s, and cull the rest.
Links:
Express Trays (1st stage)
RootBuilder II (2nd Stage)
Bulbs
Fixture
Thanks,
Jack

I'm still sitting on zero with top growth but there are a couple that are ready to pop. The nut has picked itself up a little and appears to be splitting to send out the stem (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

I'm starting to develop a better understanding...of why most folks buy their trees from a nursery. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
I'm starting to develop a better understanding...of why most folks by their trees from a nursery. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Well said. It is fun and addictive to grow a bunch from seed or acorn, but does take some effort. I have grown Sawtooth a couple of times, a few pears, some persimmon and chestnuts. It is encouraging to see these trees growing out in the fields, knowing each one was a little acorn or seed in my greenhouse.
I have tried direct seed for sawtooth and chestnut. Some little plants are now growing but less than overwhelming success.
One other item: I have planted seedlings in spring and in fall/winter. By far it is best to plant the seedlings when they are dormant.

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
I'm starting to develop a better understanding...of why most folks buy their trees from a nursery. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
There are no great solutions. Folks have been buying bare root trees from nurseries for many years. You have to plant when they are dormant and live with the years of sleep and creep before they leap.
The thing that first drove me away from that route was cost. The over hype of Dunstan chestnuts was driving seedling prices up to $25+ per tree. That is fine if you are planting a handful of trees for attraction.
I decided I wanted to use low maintenance mast producing trees as part of my feeding program because permaculture is more sustainable in the long-term both in terms of cost and time. I can still do a lot of work and have an income while I'm young, but looking toward retirement, but my physical ability to work and my buying power will likely decline.
In order to feed deer you need trees in volume. That is what got me started looking at starting them in containers myself. I personally enjoy the winter project and it helps cure cabin fever. I always enjoy digging into things intellectually and understanding them in more depth. When I started looking at the down side of containers, I came across the root pruning research. That got me started down this path.
I liken it to food plots. If your only focus us hunting, then food plots are costly work that you hope may payoff from a hunting standpoint. On the other hand, if you enjoy learning about food plotting and enjoy the time outdoors on the tractor, they can become as enjoyable as hunting itself. The same can be said for habitat work.
There is no one right answer here. I've done both. I enjoy growing my own. I made a lot of mistakes when I started, but now I'm getting better quality trees that can be planted anytime with virtually no transplant shock for pennies on the dollar.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I always enjoy digging into things intellectually and understanding them in more depth.
==================================
This is why you are such a valuable resource to everyone on the forum. We really appreciate your knowledge and thank you for sharing with us.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
This is why you are such a valuable resource to everyone on the forum. We really appreciate your knowledge and thank you for sharing with us.
==================================
Thank you for the very kind words but keep in mind that much of what I've learned and share has been learned from others here. I'm just paying it forward as others have done before me.
Thanks,
Jack

Liftoff! I noticed about 5-6 of my chestnuts popped over night. All of my nuts weren't planted on the same day as I like to wait for the root to pop before putting in the dirt as I don't want to waste time on duds.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Thank you for the very kind words but keep in mind that much of what I've learned and share has been learned from others here. I'm just paying it forward as others have done before me.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I appreciate your efforts, Jack.
As much as possible, I try to learn from the mistakes of others so I have better results the first time around. What I'm learning, in this case, is growing trees from seed is not as simple as sticking a germinated nut into a bag of soil. The intricacies of growing trees from seed are many and I'm trying to discern which details are critical and which are simply best practices.
Wayne was generous enough to send me 52 chestnuts. To date, 40 of them have sent out a root and I have placed them in grow bags with what I'm told is suitable medium. I would like to feel good about this, but am not sure if I'm doing enough things correctly to expect actual trees to result from my efforts.
To date, I have spent around $100 on this project. I expect to spend no less than $150 more, on larger containers and on protecting the trees once they are planted. I admit to using easy math here, but if I get 25 trees to plant from the 40 nuts that germinated, that would be just $10 per tree, including the fencing. That would be VERY inexpensive, all things considered! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I am not yet at the stage Jack is at, where I'm planting enough trees to make a substantive change in the annual food supply of wildlife utilizing my properties. All I'm trying to accomplish, at this point, is to introduce a limited new food source and possibly increase the diversity of wildlife in my immediate area. I planted a total of 4 dozen DCO, DKC, hazelnut, apple and crab-apple trees last spring. I hope to plant more of the same this spring, along with some of these Chinese chestnut trees.
I guess what I'm saying is I might not be doing everything exactly the way more experienced folks would, and I might fail completely this year, but I'm doing the best I can with limited knowledge and a modest financial commitment. Hopefully that will be enough to realize some kind of benefit.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
I appreciate your efforts, Jack.
As much as possible, I try to learn from the mistakes of others so I have better results the first time around. What I'm learning, in this case, is growing trees from seed is not as simple as sticking a germinated nut into a bag of soil. The intricacies of growing trees from seed are many and I'm trying to discern which details are critical and which are simply best practices.
Wayne was generous enough to send me 52 chestnuts. To date, 40 of them have sent out a root and I have placed them in grow bags with what I'm told is suitable medium. I would like to feel good about this, but am not sure if I'm doing enough things correctly to expect actual trees to result from my efforts.
To date, I have spent around $100 on this project. I expect to spend no less than $150 more, on larger containers and on protecting the trees once they are planted. I admit to using easy math here, but if I get 25 trees to plant from the 40 nuts that germinated, that would be just $10 per tree, including the fencing. That would be VERY inexpensive, all things considered! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I am not yet at the stage Jack is at, where I'm planting enough trees to make a substantive change in the annual food supply of wildlife utilizing my properties. All I'm trying to accomplish, at this point, is to introduce a limited new food source and possibly increase the diversity of wildlife in my immediate area. I planted a total of 4 dozen DCO, DKC, hazelnut, apple and crab-apple trees last spring. I hope to plant more of the same this spring, along with some of these Chinese chestnut trees.
I guess what I'm saying is I might not be doing everything exactly the way more experienced folks would, and I might fail completely this year, but I'm doing the best I can with limited knowledge and a modest financial commitment. Hopefully that will be enough to realize some kind of benefit.
==================================
Jason,
Even with the homework I had done, I felt like a blind squirrel looking for a nut my first year trying to grow trees from nuts. I find that I learn more things from my failures (and I have many) than my successes.
Best of luck,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Gator,
It is good to see them get started. The others will join in fairly quick.
Looking forward to your progress &amp; updates.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Gator,
It is good to see them get started. The others will join in fairly quick.
Looking forward to your progress &amp; updates.
==================================
I think I've decided to give up on my chestnuts and ACs. It has been quite a while since I've seen any new top growth. I watered everything today for the last time unless something changes. As the 18s dry out, I'll start doing post mortems on all that didn't grow.
At this point, anything that germinates is just academic. I have more with good top growth already than I have large containers available for the summer. Nothing germinating at this point could possibly catch up.
After the post mortem, I'll post some results with graphs and stuff.
My hazelnuts just finished the first 5 day warming test. Only one of them developed a root radicle. It was planted and the rest when back in the fridge for more cold stratification. My guess is that I'll be planting those about the time I've dumped the non-performing chestnuts.
Thanks,
jack

I'm running out of space! I have some with really nice top growth that I can't have all 18 cells in the tray without severe crowding. I rearranged in some sort of leaf Tetris game and ended up with another tray under my lights. I have some that grew to about 4 inches and the leaves started opening and then terminated. Most of those were the really bright green stems. On the green ones that are still going, they are beginning branches where the dead leaves were. Some others just have super tiny leaves. A few had weavils but germinated, but its clear which ones they are as they must have run the nut energy dry and are lagging behind.
I think I may 'cull' without culling... as in the ones I plan to cull, instead of just getting rid of them, keep the best ones in the grow box and fill the more shadowed spaces with the less desirables or stick them on the window sill. Then plant them outside after the last frost. That way they may hang on to life long enough to be planted outside.
Being that I'm probably stretching the climate zone for chestnuts and ive never grown them before, I can't cull any on purpose. Any that have a hint of life will at least give me something to experiment on with climate/cold tolerance/sun/soil/fertilizer/watering.
As jack said earlier, we learn more from our failures

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
I'm running out of space! I have some with really nice top growth that I can't have all 18 cells in the tray without severe crowding. I rearranged in some sort of leaf Tetris game and ended up with another tray under my lights. I have some that grew to about 4 inches and the leaves started opening and then terminated. Most of those were the really bright green stems. On the green ones that are still going, they are beginning branches where the dead leaves were. Some others just have super tiny leaves. A few had weavils but germinated, but its clear which ones they are as they must have run the nut energy dry and are lagging behind.
I think I may 'cull' without culling... as in the ones I plan to cull, instead of just getting rid of them, keep the best ones in the grow box and fill the more shadowed spaces with the less desirables or stick them on the window sill. Then plant them outside after the last frost. That way they may hang on to life long enough to be planted outside.
Being that I'm probably stretching the climate zone for chestnuts and ive never grown them before, I can't cull any on purpose. Any that have a hint of life will at least give me something to experiment on with climate/cold tolerance/sun/soil/fertilizer/watering.
As jack said earlier, we learn more from our failures
==================================
I did the same thing my first year. I was concerned about the crowding in the 18s and started spacing them. I've since stopped doing that. They don't compete for any resource other than light. There may be an advantage to them getting a bit more light each, but I think there is also a benefit in their competition for that light.
In the long run, I've found no difference in trees spaced in 18s or crowded in 18s for 12 to 16 weeks. I do organize my trees by the stage of development so that the competition is &quot;fair&quot;.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
In the long run, I've found no difference in trees spaced in 18s or crowded in 18s for 12 to 16 weeks. I do organize my trees by the stage of development so that the competition is &quot;fair&quot;.
Thanks,
jack
==================================
Invaluable info! I am very concerned with stem caliper over tree height for the first few years as I think I may struggle with cold weather dieback. Again my climate zone is weighing heavily in my thoughts.
I'm thinking I'm gonna have to a have a refresher with Dr whitcombs book on these very cold days (high of 6 degrees F today). I believe he talked about stem caliper mostly coming from the lower leaves where top growth comes from the top leaves. I think his study tree was a red pine...
Again my plan is the first year in root makers (1 gal then 3 gal). Then to overwinter the best ones to protect from the first winter cold in the garage and then depending on how much growth room is left, plant in the ground when they outgrow the 3 gals.

Jaximus,
If you have top growth - never count that as a failure. Some seedlings are going to grow slower than those beside it - just as some are slower to germinate.
In rootmaker 18 express when the tray gets full and bushy, I move the shorter ones that may be slower and shorter to the side row not the middle row. That shorter seedling in the middle row is getting crowded on the left and the right.
In 2015, I had 108 container locations and I was determine to get every seedlings I could to the field ready position. I had a group that were my stragglers. In that group I did have three seedlings that finally made super seedlings. Unfortunately, a squirrel killed two of them when I positioned them under the edge of a pine tree to limit their afternoon sun.
I let nature show me that seedlings are like 17 and 18 students - some physically mature into the adult's body as a sophomore, some as a junior, some as a senior and a few at age 19.
Don't give up on your stragglers - I am glad I didn't in 2015 and I certainly will not in 2016. Now I may wind up giving away some of my stragglers, then again they may get planted on my farm.
The last photo I saw of your seedlings - they looked very healthy to me. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by jaximus
Invaluable info! I am very concerned with stem caliper over tree height for the first few years as I think I may struggle with cold weather dieback. Again my climate zone is weighing heavily in my thoughts.
I'm thinking I'm gonna have to a have a refresher with Dr whitcombs book on these very cold days (high of 6 degrees F today). I believe he talked about stem caliper mostly coming from the lower leaves where top growth comes from the top leaves. I think his study tree was a red pine...
Again my plan is the first year in root makers (1 gal then 3 gal). Then to overwinter the best ones to protect from the first winter cold in the garage and then depending on how much growth room is left, plant in the ground when they outgrow the 3 gals.
==================================
Yes, you have a much shorter growing season than I do and different challenges. Your plan sounds reasonable.
Thanks,
Jack

Wayne,
I decided to do my post mortem today. My results are posted on the other thread: <https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthre...578#post822578
Thanks,
Jack

I got my first tiny sprout of top-growth today, exactly 2 weeks after the first seed/radical hit the dirt. I also moved some stuff around and have a 4' long grow light positioned over the trays and a large reflector redirecting both sunlight and light from the overhead fixture. These are the &quot;grow&quot; bulbs, if that makes any difference.
I'll post a picture in a few days, after more nuts have sent up top-growth.

Broom,
Congrats to you. This is good progress and the timing follows what the rest of us have seen.
Getting the lights and reflectors positioned should help the process.
Good job. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by broom_jm
I got my first tiny sprout of top-growth today, exactly 2 weeks after the first seed/radical hit the dirt. I also moved some stuff around and have a 4' long grow light positioned over the trays and a large reflector redirecting both sunlight and light from the overhead fixture. These are the &quot;grow&quot; bulbs, if that makes any difference.
I'll post a picture in a few days, after more nuts have sent up top-growth.
==================================
Nope the grow bulbs make no difference for our application. The key the is the amount of light produced rather than the specifics of the spectrum. The Bulbs we use put out around 2900 lumens. Anything in that ball park will be fine. Do your best to keep the lights about 2 or 3 inches above the trees.
It is good to hear you are having some success!
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

i watered yesterday and did some consolidation to fit more plants under the lights. i managed to puzzle piece together the chestnuts where i could fit a bunch of the larger chestnuts into one tray without having much shading (i previously had spread one trays worth to 2 trays to get more light). i sorted by size again. i had about 1 tray worth that hadnt really grown at all in about 2 weeks. they popped out of the dirt, grew a quick 3-4 inches and then fizzled. so i uprooted a few to check what was going on. i ended up tossing 15 that had a mushy brown taproot and no living white root tips. a few with the mushy roots had some tiny green leaves(biggest was 7 inches tall with 3 sets of leaves with no leaf bigger than a quarter).
it sucks to lose some, but i would rather lose them now than later when they are bigger.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by jaximus
i watered yesterday and did some consolidation to fit more plants under the lights. i managed to puzzle piece together the chestnuts where i could fit a bunch of the larger chestnuts into one tray without having much shading (i previously had spread one trays worth to 2 trays to get more light). i sorted by size again. i had about 1 tray worth that hadnt really grown at all in about 2 weeks. they popped out of the dirt, grew a quick 3-4 inches and then fizzled. so i uprooted a few to check what was going on. i ended up tossing 15 that had a mushy brown taproot and no living white root tips. a few with the mushy roots had some tiny green leaves(biggest was 7 inches tall with 3 sets of leaves with no leaf bigger than a quarter).
it sucks to lose some, but i would rather lose them now than later when they are bigger.
==================================
jaximus,
Just to give you a feel for how crowded my chestnuts are, here is a pic:

I do have a lot of lighting. There are 5 trays in the picture. All cells are full.
Thanks,
Jack

those are quite a bit more crowded than mine! it also appears that they have leaves on about half of their height. my leaves are closer to the top 1/3. looking good!!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by jaximus
those are quite a bit more crowded than mine! it also appears that they have leaves on about half of their height. my leaves are closer to the top 1/3. looking good!!
==================================
Chestnuts need to deal with competition in nature. They are a large nut that can store a lot of energy. When they start, that energy from the nut goes down and up. The down energy is used to from a deep tap root. The up energy produces a tall stem so leaves can get above competition and get sun. They often grow quite a tall stem first and produce a few leaves on top. Then, and they collect sunlight and begin to produce energy for the plant, the tree will often develop leaves lower down on the stem. Just give them some more time and see if they don't start producing larger leaves lower as well as continuing to produce new leaves on top.
Thanks,
Jack

I finally had my first 3 chestnuts break the surface last night!
From reading i have noticed lots of people saying how important it is to get the watering right. Can someone explain the submersing watering to me? Do you just fill up a 5 gallon bucket and dunk them in?
Thanks in advance for any replies
John B
PS should i start a new post when asking questions or is this thread for anything chestnut related?

John,
I started this thread and yes your question is appropriate right here.
Congrats on getting top growth. They generally sit as a group and then when top growth begins - it is front end loaded.
I use a 2.5 gallon bucket and I put water in it that has been adjusted with acid and pH meter to get an appropriate pH level.
I dunk the rootmaker 18 just low enough that the water slips over the top edge of the rootmaker 18. I don't want the top water washing my soil away from my chestnut. I may hold the container in that position over 5 seconds to allow water to soak in from the bottom.
When I think the saturation has occurred sufficiently, I raise the 18 straight up so I can watch how much drains out the bottom of the container.
I do that on a lighted table so I can see what I need to see. I move all of my trays out of my grow box and work them all and place them back two trays at a time.
One advantage I use is the first time I put growing media into the rootmaker 18 containers - I want that media wet. I will water a new tray after I have placed all of my chestnuts in the growing media. When I am selecting chestnuts, I place all 18 on top of the growing media. If I have more chestnuts than locations - then I hold court to determine which ones I believe are the best prospects to make a healthy chestnut tree.
Then I go container to container place the chestnut beneath the top of the growing media. I do this to prevent mold and avoid the chestnut drying out too much due to my heater and fan in the grow box.
I hope I have helped. Post on this thread any time you need to.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by John_B
I finally had my first 3 chestnuts break the surface last night!
From reading i have noticed lots of people saying how important it is to get the watering right. Can someone explain the submersing watering to me? Do you just fill up a 5 gallon bucket and dunk them in?
Thanks in advance for any replies
John B
PS should i start a new post when asking questions or is this thread for anything chestnut related?
==================================
John,
First, we need to talk about containers. Most of us are using air pruning containers. If you don't j-hooking and circling roots can cause major issues in the life of the tree. So, presuming you are using air pruning containers, here are my thoughts.
We start with RM18s to get the tap root air pruned. These are small cells that are shaped to route roots to strategically placed holes in the bottom. We use some sort of professional mix in these. Promix bx and Fafard 3b are examples. These are well drained mixes not intended retain water like miracle grow.
I don't use submersion with these containers because the are so small. When you submerge these small cells and lift them from the water, some of the mix is lost through the bottom holes. Doing it once or twice won't hurt, but if you do it repeatedly, you can lose a significant percentage of mix from the bottom of the cell. I've had trees die and later when I did a post mortem I found there was just no place left for the root system to live.
After trees have been in these cells for 12 to 16 weeks, the root branching caused by air pruning the tap root has filled the cell with roots and it is time to transplant them so they don't become root-bound.
The next size root pruning containers I like to use are 1 gal Rootbuilder II containers. I do like to use submersion to water these.
I simply take the container with the tree in it. I put one hand over the top of the container with the stem between my fingers. I then lower the container into a tub of rain water. I use the hand on top to push the container which is buoyant so the top of slight below the surface of the water. Air bubbles from in the mix will start coming up through my fingers as the water infiltrates it. When they stop, usually about 15-30 seconds, water has pretty much infiltrated the entire container. I have a small wire rack that I place across the top of the tub of water. I then set the RB2 container on the rack. Water will drain out of all the holes on the sides of the container back into the tub. When the dripping slows, I put that tree back and water the next the same way.
I find this submersion technique does several things:
1) The amount of mix lost is a tiny percentage of what is in the container and insignificant.
2) The watering is thorough. You are sure when you are done that the mix is saturated with water. This means you can go much longer between watering (when the container gets light as described in the previous post).
3) Rainwater is precious. If you grow a lot of trees like me, it is easy to run out during the dry summer period. I want to use city water only in an emergency and for as short a period as possible. This method conserves water compared to top watering where you need see a lot of water run out of the holes on the side near the bottom to ensure it is fully infiltrated. All that water is lost with top watering. Top watering is less physically taxing if you use a pump and wand, but it wastes more rainwater. I still do this on occasion when rainwater is abundant.
Hope this description helps,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I am using RM express 18 with promix bx. Ill have (hopefully) around 150 trees assuming that they all wont sprout. Ive lost 10 or so of the original 200 nuts to mold in the bags before the radical emerged and will most likely lose more.
I should have plenty of trees and as you said not enough places to put them that i can do some experimenting as well.
Thanks for the help.
John B

ive been dunking my 18s and top watering while they are being dunked. i use a shallow tub and put 3-4 inches of water in the bottom. i set the containers into the water and make sure they sit on the bottom and dont float around. i then top water to make sure all my mix is moist. i turn the container at a 45 degree angle and slowly pull it out. by turning it, it doesnt gurgle and 'pop'. this keeps the mix in the containers pretty well.
ive also found that pre watering the mix really helps it from falling out. it helps it 'stick' together.
i also like the dunking method as you can tell if there is a dry spot or air bubble in the mix. i set them in the basin with water and leave them for a while and sort other trays or water while doing other things to make sure they are good and saturated. when watering i use another express 18 stand to give them time to drain before they go back in the grow box. sometimes even after waiting, you feel a cell 'float up' when you go to remove it. it sounds different.
i also like to use warm water when i water. i warmed up some rainwater in a pot and mixed it with my not warm stuff. i dont want it hot, but just warm. helps keep the soil temp up and is less taxing on your grow box heater.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by jaximus
...
i also like to use warm water when i water. i warmed up some rainwater in a pot and mixed it with my not warm stuff. i dont want it hot, but just warm. helps keep the soil temp up and is less taxing on your grow box heater.
==================================
Another good point!
By warm, we don't necessarily mean warm to the touch. More like ambient temperature. I'd say 70 to 90 degrees would be fine. At this time of year some of us shovel snow for water and some use well water if it is of sufficient quality. In both cases, the water is cold, maybe 40 degrees. I happen to be a snow shoveling type. I fill 5 gal buckets with snow and bring them in to melt. I have another container that I use to water trees from. I only refill that container with melted snow immediately after watering my trees. That gives it several days to come up to room temperature before I water trees with it.
Keep in mind, using cold water won't hurt your trees, but it will slow them down a bit. I wouldn't actually heat water directly, but allowing it to come up to room temperature (about 75 degrees in my case) works pretty well.
Thanks,
Jack

As of yesterday, my first flat had 17 out of 18 with top growth and the second flat had 5 out of 13 with top growth. I also have a single in a RT bag that is right on the verge of sending up top growth. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Another good point!
By warm, we don't necessarily mean warm to the touch. More like ambient temperature. I'd say 70 to 90 degrees would be fine. At this time of year some of us shovel snow for water and some use well water if it is of sufficient quality. In both cases, the water is cold, maybe 40 degrees. I happen to be a snow shoveling type. I fill 5 gal buckets with snow and bring them in to melt. I have another container that I use to water trees from. I only refill that container with melted snow immediately after watering my trees. That gives it several days to come up to room temperature before I water trees with it.
Keep in mind, using cold water won't hurt your trees, but it will slow them down a bit. I wouldn't actually heat water directly, but allowing it to come up to room temperature (about 75 degrees in my case) works pretty well.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
I use well water but I fill gallon milk jugs and let it sit so it will be room temp by the time I use it.

 

[yoderjac]

Gator,
Those #s are very good and I am sure the numbers will increase each couple of days.
Over 2/3 have top growth. I estimate I am at 165 out of 180 on all of my Chinese Chestnuts. They were stuck in the growing media over the range of a month. This was because they popped a radicle at different times.
I would expect you to hit at least the 80% range if not higher.
Congratulations on your success!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
I use well water but I fill gallon milk jugs and let it sit so it will be room temp by the time I use it.
==================================
That works. I have a 30 gal gly drum with a 5 gal bucket on top I use as a funnel. I epoxied a short length of PVC pipe into the bottom of the bucket and the pipe goes into one of the bung holes on the bucket. Once a bucket of snow has melted, I pour it into the 30 gal drum to warm up.
The other bung hole in the drum has a PVC pipe stuck in it which is connected to a hose which is connected to a utility pump. The output of the pump is connected to a garden hose which is connected to a watering wand.
I like the watering wand for 18s because I can reach into my grow boxes between the stems of the chestnuts and water each cell directly without having to remove the trays. When I first started, I just used a watering can, but as the number of trees I was growing increased I needed a more efficient method since I couldn't get a watering can in without moving the trays.
It sounds like you got great germination rates. Just like Wayne, it shows that longer cold stratification produces higher germination rates. I traded off better germination rates for better timing. My 18s should be ready for transplant right around the middle of April when my last threat of frost usually passes. This will let me transplant them just as I move them outside so I don't need room for the 1 gals indoors.
This reminds me, I have to make sure I start my squirrel eradication program early this year. I lost some trees to them last year.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I have to make sure I start my squirrel eradication program early this year.
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Good luck with eradication. Pretty sure that's impossible!!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
Good luck with eradication. Pretty sure that's impossible!!
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Nope. They are territorial. If I start my baptism program early in March, I'll be clear all spring. I'll still see them elsewhere in the neighborhood but they will be eradicated from proximity to my house. By fall, new squirrels will move back in, but by then the trees will be large enough they won't bother them.
My mistake last year was to wait too long to get started. You're right in that you can't eradicate them forever and I wouldn't want to, but you can eradicate them from a give area for a finite time period.
Thanks,
Jack

Here are a few random pointers from one n00b (me) to anyone else who may decide they want to grow chestnuts from seed, in future years. These are things that may be very obvious to folks who are experienced at growing trees from nuts, but were things I learned the hard way, this year.
(This is also a reminder to myself, as I would like to try my hand at DCO next year.)
A chestnut has a top and a bottom. The radical (root) will pop out of the bottom and after it's established, the &quot;Top Growth&quot; (tree) will start growing up from that spot where the root turned to start growing down. If you place the nut in the soil with the bottom pointing straight down, and cover it with too much soil, the tree portion will be pretty deep and have to grow up a lot before you see it...if it makes it that far.
Lay the chestnut (or other nuts, I presume?) on its side about halfway down into the dirt/grow mix. The root will go down and the top growth will be visible sooner, with less risk of it being buried too deep.
When you fill your grow bags with the mix, settle them by shaking a little and then water before you place the nut down into it. You may even need to fill the bag, water, then put more mix in because sometimes it REALLY settles when you water. I discovered that if I put the nut just below the surface and then watered, it could sink more than halfway down into the grow bag. This is NOT a good thing!
I learned to place the nut on its side so that the edge of it was barely visible, with most of the nut hidden below the grow mix.
Plan for a way to provide warmth under the grow bags, no matter where you are doing this. I found the soil would get quite cold when it is wet, even with the surrounding area being fairly warm. They make mats that are designed to be placed under the trays to provide warmth. Other methods work as well, like small portable space heaters.
Don't think you can go into this without spending some money to get good results. Spring for the good Rootmaker grow bags; they're worth it. Lights are also more expensive than you would think. The first year, expect to spend at least $250 on various items, unless you have a lot of the needed equipment on hand already.
Read up on the process of getting nuts to germinate and then grow into trees so that you understand it (more or less) before getting started. This will help you avoid feeling like an idiot, waiting for things to happen that won't for quite a while. It will also help set realistic expectations and make the process enjoyable, instead of a little nerve-wracking. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
This is supposed to be fun, right?? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Jason