Is property management on smaller properties

[MN Slick]

IMO habitat mgnt, sanctuaries, low hunting pressure, best food plots in the hood, etc. WILL help get bucks some age in areas where the hunting pressure starts opening day of bow season and never lets up right through the last day of the season . Pressure this intense year after year will have negative impact on daylight movement and allow guys with the best santuary, plots and hunting strategy to keep older bucks closer to home. States like MI, PA, MN come to mind. In light pressure areas it's like whip cream on shit because bucks of all ages will cover ground during daylight and will wander off your property during said daylight.

I disagree with "pros" when they bloviate about how smart and hard to kill bucks get when they hit 4.5 plus years old in low pressure areas. Sure there a few here an there that have a personality trait that makes them harder to kill but they are outliers.

 

[Belchertown Bowman]

A very interesting thread and read folks,.. thanks!

 

[BenAllgood]

I've hunted areas where baiting was a sure enough way to shut down daytime activity at a spot. I've also hunted areas where baiting was a great way to get to see deer during daytime. From what I've experienced, it's the pressure on the area herd that causes the difference in daytime sightings. Pressure is also relative. It's the long term pressure that controls deer reactions to it. I'm talking about learned behavior over generations.

 

[yoderjac]

I get it, I outlined my whole hunting experiences of never having much, surrounded by pressure - still have some P&Y Book Bucks and one Booner to my name. Sure could be the exception, but I know guys all over southern Michigan with 30, 50, 45 acres putting down 140 inch P&Y caliber bucks despite all the issues surrounding them.

I know a few PA guys, that have upped their odds at a 140+ incher a ton over their last 4 or 5 years of owning a 120 acre slice - one got a near booner this year.

I just despise the defeatist mentality of "its' impossible" "its a waste" because it just simply isn't true in my personal experience and many others. Sure nothing is guaranteed, but c'mon we need less Eeyores in life LOL

FTR appreciate the dialogue, rare these days in forums and it is awesome.

One more thing to keep in mind is that it is easy to attribute success or failure to what we have done on small properties. Often that is not the case. The average home range of a buck is about 1,000 acres but that varies a bit with habitat. During the rut, they can move miles in a day. Recent research is exploring seasonal range changes as well as excursions. Things like disease, weather events, forest fires, regulation changes, and such impact deer over and even larger area. Even though we find a huge correlation between land fertility and book bucks, that does not mean that there are not a small number of book class bucks in other areas. Our brains want to see patterns even when none exist.

There is no doubt that some small properties can be manipulated to increase the chances of shooting book class bucks, presuming they are in the area. One really has to look at things statistically over many years to draw the conclusion that the practices are having an impact. It is simply not possible to collect enough hard data on book class bucks on an individual small property to establish a causal relationship or even a correlation.

Wild deer management is amazingly complex. Clearly things done on a small property influence deer. The question is whether there is sufficient scale for that influence to have a statically significant impact or if all the other things that are influencing deer on a much larger scale in the general area are so large that they wash out an effect caused by a small property manipulation. A great example is a small property owner trying to improve age structure in bucks letting young bucks walk and shooting does to try to bring the herd in balance with the habitat. Next door thee is a large tract leased by a hunt club that doesn't believe in shooting does and shoots anything with antlers they see. The small property owner's efforts are really having no impact. However that same small property owner happens to shoot record book bucks 3 years in a row. His anecdotal experience tells him he is doing a great job, especially if he is not aware what is going on on the property nearby leased by the hunt club.

I do tend to agree that words like "it's a waste" are probably an overstatement in the other direction. I would put it this way. Without sufficient scale, habitat management is not going to have a measurable impact on the body weights or antler size of the local herd. Even with sufficient scale, the underlying fertility of the soil and underlying genetics will be a limiting factor on how much measurable improvement the herd can achieve.

Many small property owners can have "success" using habitat management practices to improve hunting on their property. This depend largely on how they define "success" and the initial state of the property and how deer relate to it. Some properties have a lot of room for improvement and others have little. It is really on a property by property basis.

One more thing to provide some optimism. Most of the things we do to manipulate habitat for deer also benefit a wide variety of other wildlife! Small property owners should not be discouraged, but they should keep their expectations realistic.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[tynimiller]

One more thing to provide some optimism. Most of the things we do to manipulate habitat for deer also benefit a wide variety of other wildlife! Small property owners should not be discouraged, but they should keep their expectations realistic.

1,000,000% agree and that is crucial to fight discouragement. I've never been naive to believe my 23 acres can control any deer's daily life from sun up to sun down - let alone for a week or a year. Realistic goals are crucial, and trust me you can see immense success and increase your chances on small properties without a doubt in my mind is all I'm trying to state.

As for the passing a deer...it is so true what you said! I literally have on film multiple bucks that I let walk....and then literally at times minutes later I hear a boom or get a text from a neighbor it got killed. However, they don't kill em all - and me personally, I know if I shoot it that deer 100% has no chance - if I let walk, there is a chance. May be small but a chance. :)

Love the perspective and conveyance of your thoughts Jack!

 

[yoderjac]

I've hunted areas where baiting was a sure enough way to shut down daytime activity at a spot. I've also hunted areas where baiting was a great way to get to see deer during daytime. From what I've experienced, it's the pressure on the area herd that causes the difference in daytime sightings. Pressure is also relative. It's the long term pressure that controls deer reactions to it. I'm talking about learned behavior over generations.

There is some interesting research in this area with grasshoppers and spiders! "Learned behavior" may be experiential with fawns learning from does, but there may also be an epigenetic component to it. The research is looking at the importance of "fear" in prey species. It is showing that prey species will select more nutritional food that require more "risk" when fear of predation is absent (predators removed). This makes them more productive and populations increase which can put pressure on habitat. When fear of predation is higher due to more predators in the environment, they tend to choose lower quality, lower risk foods that require less risk exposure. This shows that predators impact on prey populations had a greater impact than simply removing individual prey from the population.

I believe our habitat manipulation has significantly benefitted deer while making them much harder to hunt. Things like controlled burns in clear-cuts and the thinning of pine stands along with controlled burns in them has created "quality native food in cover". This means concentrated quality food sources like food plots are far less important and there is less need for movement between bedding cover and quality food. This along with hunting predation, which only occurs during daylight, has caused deer to become nocturnal. Deer have become more sensitive to hunting pressure as this large scale habitat management has improved the BCC.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[PatinPA]

Small property owner here. Just shy of 12 acres surrounded by ag. I've owned it for about 3 years now.

The things I've noticed.

Access is tough. I'm surrounded on all sides by ag, so deer move in different directions every day. I just try to not hunt it too hard. Once maybe twice a week in the right conditions.
I put in a small 1/8 acre food plot. It's not that attractive when you're surrounded by commercial ag. Hoping late season when most other sources are gone it'll heat up.
QDM is not possible. I pass small bucks yearly, knowing I'll most likely never see them the following year anyway.
Fortunately, I'm surrounded mostly by non hunters or not good hunters so I see a few what I consider shooters. Some just passing through. Usually one will take up residence for the fall.
Most of the surrounding area is pretty open. I'm shooting for the cover angle. Timbered and now it's getting pretty thick.

Unfortunately, land in my neighborhood is skyrocketing, so a larger tract is pretty much out of the question unless I hit the lottery and manage to hide it from my wife. If it even goes up for sale you're looking at $5-8K/acre for woodland over 100 acres and 8-10K/acre under. Recently even saw a development with 10 acre lots going for 250K a piece.

 

[j-bird]

I have 150 acres total...100 acres of row crop corn and soybean field. The other 50 acres is spread out in narrow strips or small blocks of areas where it's too steep or rough to farm. First thing you have to do is have a honest look at what you have and try to address the lowest hole in the habitat bucket. I have been on my journey for roughly 20 years now. I went from a place where we farmed every inch of soil possible....with very few deer and just seeing a deer was a success. Now we have 2 different CRP programs (to add cover), we have had 2 different selective timber harvests (to improve the existing cover) as well as planting shrubs and trees to add diversity and long term food sources as well as cover for the wildlife. We now take multiple deer a year off the property...and we went from fawn weights of ~75 lbs to ~100 lbs weights. We have more deer than before and now we see or get a crack at a nice buck nearly every year. It's been a long road....and it's taken some money and lots of time.... I also now have hunters hunting near me on places that where never hunted before....so others are noticing as well. These deer do not live on my property, but if I can provide them some safety and a bite to eat...it gives me a chance. It's not going to produce a B&C buck every year...or maybe even ever....but that's ok. It takes time and some investment on your part. I put in a fair amount of time and have had to invest in some equipment as well.

 

[yoderjac]

I have 150 acres total...100 acres of row crop corn and soybean field. The other 50 acres is spread out in narrow strips or small blocks of areas where it's too steep or rough to farm. First thing you have to do is have a honest look at what you have and try to address the lowest hole in the habitat bucket. I have been on my journey for roughly 20 years now. I went from a place where we farmed every inch of soil possible....with very few deer and just seeing a deer was a success. Now we have 2 different CRP programs (to add cover), we have had 2 different selective timber harvests (to improve the existing cover) as well as planting shrubs and trees to add diversity and long term food sources as well as cover for the wildlife. We now take multiple deer a year off the property...and we went from fawn weights of ~75 lbs to ~100 lbs weights. We have more deer than before and now we see or get a crack at a nice buck nearly every year. It's been a long road....and it's taken some money and lots of time.... I also now have hunters hunting near me on places that where never hunted before....so others are noticing as well. These deer do not live on my property, but if I can provide them some safety and a bite to eat...it gives me a chance. It's not going to produce a B&C buck every year...or maybe even ever....but that's ok. It takes time and some investment on your part. I put in a fair amount of time and have had to invest in some equipment as well.

One thing I would add to the initial honest assessment is to first decided what your goals are and assess whether you have sufficient scale and resources to achieve them. Small property results often have more to do with what is going on around the property than on it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[PatinPA]

One thing I would add to the initial honest assessment is to first decided what your goals are and assess whether you have sufficient scale and resources to achieve them. Small property results often have more to do with what is going on around the property than on it.

Thanks,

Jack

Agree 100%. You are definitely limited based on your neighbors. Kind of nervous this year, a group bought a farm two properties away from me and are rumored to be bringing 30 guys to hunt 150 acres. I'm assuming this is an exaggeration but none the less a wall of hunters that I'm assuming will be a brown is down crew.

 

[willy]

howboutthemdawgs, It is very possible to manage and improve hunting on smaller parcels. I have three farms, 160, 80, and a 50. They are all different in deer density and land make up. As has been mentioned, neighbors and neighboring land have a great influence on how much habitat management improves the quality of deer and deer hunting. However even on the two farms that are surrounded by a lot of hunters who have different philosophies than I on management, they still have quality hunting and deer.

We have passed many deer that lived and many that were killed by hunters or something else. The 80 is half surrounded by a lease that pours the people in and pounds the doe and bucks. It is a bit frustrating to have the majority of deer passed on our place die across the fence however there are always some that make it and we have been able to take several of them over the past few years. The pounding the lease takes educates many deer and those are the ones that if they live through the gauntlet become ones that hang on our side much more.

As has been mentioned sanctuary is a must have if one wants to have good hunting in my opinion, year in year out. We also only hunt the outsides of the property and only go in to retrieve a deer from August through January. The rest of the year I do habitat projects and maintenance on stands, blinds, shooting lanes, foot plots, etc.

I encourage you to stick with it. It will pay off.

 

[chummer]

First, I wouldn’t say 250 acres is a small tract. That is plenty big enough to accomplish what you want. You have only been doing this for 2 years. If you are targeting 3.5 and up you have been disturbing and displacing these bucks at the time in their life when they are establishing home ranges and core areas. You need this to play out longer. Get your bedding done first, ideally in center of the property then work on plots and travel corridors. I can’t speak to baiting but I can speak to neighbors that shoot everything that moves. I am 8 years in managing 45 acres and I am finally seeing consistent results. I have shot a 3.5 yo three years in a row that somehow made it past the army that surrounds me. I have thick bedding, food, and most importantly the does. The last couple years the does have really started to stay on my property and never leave. This is due to all the work I started 8 years ago. Just stay the coarse, eventually the deer will zero in on your property.

 

[yoderjac]

There are certain hunting locations that I just can't figure out. It can be a few acres in the middle of seemingly identical habitat. I found this to be the case on a large military base that I hunted for years. There were particular stand locations where I would encounter mature bucks almost every year I hunted them. This was during archery season and my success rate at killing them with a bow was poor, but I'd have an encounter with one most every year. I could never figure out what it was about those particular locations. They looked no different to me habitat-wise than the surrounding thousand acres. I'm sure there was something in the big scheme of things that accounts for it, but I was never able to figure it out. There are other places that I hunted just as frequently in the same apparent habitat on base where I never saw a mature buck and some of them, never a young buck either.

Some folks can do all the habitat management they want on a small property and will never see mature bucks. Others may do nothing and see mature bucks regularly. Don't get me wrong. Habitat management will make a huge difference on some properties and I'm an advocate, but in some cases it won't make any difference and in some, it will have a negative impact on encounters with mature bucks. The larger the property, I think the more we can say that habitat management can have a positive impact over time.

We have a small but not tiny property, just under 400 acres, and we have some cooperating neighbors. Each time we have completed a major habitat project, it has changed how deer relate to our land. New patterns emerge. It takes time to figure out those new patterns and adapt your hunting accordingly. If I picked an arbitrary 20 acres on our property and watched how deer related to it over time, the impact on how deer used it (or didn't) is much more a function of what happened on the other 90% of the property in terms of habitat changes than what happened on that 20 acres. I'm not saying what we did on those 20 acres had no impact. It did. I'm just saying that changes in the larger scale area had more impact.

I don't want to be the voice of discouragement here, but neither do I want to give false hope. I would say this. Would say this: With a large property, it is important to set your goals, and do a lot of planning before you execute. What you chose to do or not do can have both positive and negative long-term effects. On a small property, I'd say this is even more important. I'd also suggest that going slow and seeing what impact your changes have and constantly reassessing is important.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

Above all else, on my place, our success follows the amount of food we produce. We try to grow does and hold them, we try to attract as many bucks as we can. I feel like the more bucks we can attract and keep them on our place, the better chance we have of killing one. But so many other factors affect deer movement. Up until 2010, we used to kill at least one target buck a year. That gradually started changing - one every other year - and finally none four years in a row. Over that ten year period is when all the adjacent property owners upped their baiting game. From almost none ten years ago to everyone of them today. There is a neighboring thirty acres where no one lived. The property owner moved onto that land three years ago. Last year, he, his buddies and their kids killed seven bucks - all legal. That had an affect on my property. For fifteen years, a lot of our big deer bedded in an impenetrable swamp just south of my poperty. A few years ago, two of the neighbors clearcut 220 acres west of my property. That greatly changed deer use on my property. So many things can affect deer use of your property - but the one thing that has so far remained consistent on my property - is I have year round, high quality food sources on my property - and the deer tend to spend a good bit of time on me.

 

[yoderjac]

Above all else, on my place, our success follows the amount of food we produce. We try to grow does and hold them, we try to attract as many bucks as we can. I feel like the more bucks we can attract and keep them on our place, the better chance we have of killing one. But so many other factors affect deer movement. Up until 2010, we used to kill at least one target buck a year. That gradually started changing - one every other year - and finally none four years in a row. Over that ten year period is when all the adjacent property owners upped their baiting game. From almost none ten years ago to everyone of them today. There is a neighboring thirty acres where no one lived. The property owner moved onto that land three years ago. Last year, he, his buddies and their kids killed seven bucks - all legal. That had an affect on my property. For fifteen years, a lot of our big deer bedded in an impenetrable swamp just south of my poperty. A few years ago, two of the neighbors clearcut 220 acres west of my property. That greatly changed deer use on my property. So many things can affect deer use of your property - but the one thing that has so far remained consistent on my property - is I have year round, high quality food sources on my property - and the deer tend to spend a good bit of time on me.

Great example of how changes elsewhere can override our management. In our case, I think we did it to ourselves. We had an adjoining property that had been cut and allowed to naturally regenerate. It had a very high stem count and became the primary bedding area for mature bucks. The guy leasing that ground was killing mature bucks each year. They would move from bedding there to our food plots to feed at night, but with any pressure, outside the rut, we didn't see them until after dark.

We clear-cut a couple hardwood ridges to create bedding on our land. We also thinned half our pines. It worked in terms of creating more bedding for bucks, but it had unintended consequences. Now suddenly there was higher quality food mixed in cover. Rather than direct movement between a primary bedding area and our plots, movement comes from multiple bedding areas and occurs more after dark as pressure builds. One of the things I need to get smarter about is the timing of controlled burns. I need to understand what plants are more encouraged based on when the burn occurs. I know the general categories, but I need to understand how that relates to our specific native species.

Baiting is illegal in our state, but it is a common practice of many. I know some of our neighbors baited in the past, but I don't know if that is still going on. Needless to say that the few that were baiting were not those we had good relationships with.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Booner21]

I own 60 acres pretty well all cover. The area’s around me get a lot pressure than I like and something I wish I would have looked into before buying. I am in il so take that for what it is worth. I connect to other woodlots on two sides and did my best to define my borders to separate my property from the neighbors. My entire property is cover sans the few acres of food I put in and largely a sanctuary most of the year. I keep mine as low pressure as possible as well. My farm is nothing tremendously special and I take a shot on average of 1 mature deer a year on that farm. All but 1 have been archery tackle as I just sat the farm for the first time during gun season this year. I think holding deer on small properties can be done but as said before realistic expectations are a must as said earlier. I know I can’t grow a big deer alone on 60 acres but hopefully I can give him a majority of what he needs to spend more daylight hours on my farm than the neighbors.


I think it was Steve B who said to really see a noticeable difference you need to have the deer born there feel almost no pressure so plan on 4 to 5 years (mature buck age) to really see a difference. Also If deer are being baited legally across the fence I would have no problem dumping it on my side in my sanctuary even if I chose not to hunt over it.


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[yoderjac]

I own 60 acres pretty well all cover. The area’s around me get a lot pressure than I like and something I wish I would have looked into before buying. I am in il so take that for what it is worth. I connect to other woodlots on two sides and did my best to define my borders to separate my property from the neighbors. My entire property is cover sans the few acres of food I put in and largely a sanctuary most of the year. I keep mine as low pressure as possible as well. My farm is nothing tremendously special and I take a shot on average of 1 mature deer a year on that farm. All but 1 have been archery tackle as I just sat the farm for the first time during gun season this year. I think holding deer on small properties can be done but as said before realistic expectations are a must as said earlier. I know I can’t grow a big deer alone on 60 acres but hopefully I can give him a majority of what he needs to spend more daylight hours on my farm than the neighbors.


I think it was Steve B who said to really see a noticeable difference you need to have the deer born there feel almost no pressure so plan on 4 to 5 years (mature buck age) to really see a difference. Also If deer are being baited legally across the fence I would have no problem dumping it on my side in my sanctuary even if I chose not to hunt over it.


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You will likely have zero bucks born on 60 acres that mature there. If you are managing several thousand acres you may have buck born on your land that stay but it won't be many. Young bucks normally disperse much further than 60 acres. Doing QDM at scale, it can easily take 10+ years to see a measurable improvement in herd quality. Small properties are different. You are not improving the deer herd on a small property. You can improve the huntability. You can see changes in deer behavior the very next year depending on the scale of your habitat change. If those changes encourage whatever mature bucks your area holds to spend more time on your land during hunting season, you've been successful. Some will see this happen very quickly and others will never see it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Troubles Trees]

This is a great thread of information! A lot of great input here and a lot of common sense that makes sense.
I only own 36 acres, my neighbors pressure the herd VERY hard with drives during bow season on one side and a hunting club on the other side. I have a plethora of AG fields surrounding my area so I will eventually do a small 1 acre food plot but it won't be a magic bullet in my situation. It will add diversity to my land and I try to come at habitat management from every angle.
I walked many many miles of terrain around my property and there is so much missing that I feel attracts and holds deer. There are no oaks, there is very little cover and all the non-productive to hunting woods (maples, poplars and beech kind of trees) look like mine, everyone has a bare forest floor. Nobody manages their habitat for deer anywhere around me, they simply hunt.
I don't know your situation or your state but I think you are simply underestimating your property bud. Maybe try to alter your management to add things unique to your area. If Pears, Persimmons and Chestnuts aren't native to your area, do some research and plant things that will grow in your area but are a unique draw that your neighbors don't have and make sure you plant specific trees that drop their mast during deer season. If you walk through your woods and everywhere there are trees it has a barren forest floor, do some thinning and a prescribed burn to promote native browse and cover. If your entire property is a thicket, burn some of it and plant trees as well as mow some paths through it for access and shooting.

 

[Booner21]

You will likely have zero bucks born on 60 acres that mature there. If you are managing several thousand acres you may have buck born on your land that stay but it won't be many. Young bucks normally disperse much further than 60 acres. Doing QDM at scale, it can easily take 10+ years to see a measurable improvement in herd quality. Small properties are different. You are not improving the deer herd on a small property. You can improve the huntability. You can see changes in deer behavior the very next year depending on the scale of your habitat change. If those changes encourage whatever mature bucks your area holds to spend more time on your land during hunting season, you've been successful. Some will see this happen very quickly and others will never see it.

Thanks,

Jack

You are right jack he must have been talking does or vast pieces of property. I do have history with a few deer from 1.5 on. I have read some info that If the mom is harvested the bucks don’t relocate.


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[yoderjac]

You are right jack he must have been talking does or vast pieces of property. I do have history with a few deer from 1.5 on. I have read some info that If the mom is harvested the bucks don’t relocate.


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Yes, that has been my understanding for years. However, on another thread, Baker (who knows his stuff) suggested that was recently debunked by some research. I ask for links but I don't think he responded. So, at this point, I'm not sure if shooting mom really causes a young buck to stay or not. I always thought so.

With 80 acres, a history with several bucks outside the rut likely means that part of your 80 acres comprises some portion of their home range.

Thanks,

Jack