BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
Maybe the feeder guys next to you killing the big bucks are just going to their stand and back out and don't go to other parts of their properties.
Is property management on smaller properties
- Thread starter Howboutthemdawgs
- Start date
tynimiller
5 year old buck +
There is zilch wild about a 100 acre farm fenced, shoot....
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Maybe. I don’t either. I should have clarified I don’t move cameras during the season. Occasionally I have to change batteries but usually only on a sunday on the way out or whatever day I’m leaving. I walk or ride a bike to my stand, no habitat work during the season, just me on the property hunting. Pretty low impact all things considered.
SD51555
5 year old buck +
BenAllgood
5 year old buck +
Not sure what it is, but there has to be something unique about your situation that we're not seeing. There's plenty of guys who are just doing habitat improvements and getting those bigger bucks, on smaller acreages than you have, in baiting states.
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tynimiller
5 year old buck +
I have walked a somewhat local one one time, believe he had like 180 acres. Not the same. I'm also envisioning the controlled environment I could do fencing off the 80 acre farm I hunt that I don't own. LOL not even the same concept as wild.
I own 350 acres with 16 different landowners who’s property touches mine at some point - most with 30 acres or less. Most of them hunt and those that do, bait. The last four years in a row, out target bucks were killed by the neighbors. Mind you, not one of them even so much as plants a 1/2 acre food plot. Some show a little trigger restraint - but other than that, there in no such thing as deer or habitat management - other than baiting - if you count that.
Last year, I said enough. We started baiting and killed a target buck. This year, we have killed three target bucks - including my largest ever. My goal in life is to increase the number of big bucks using my property AND kill a few of them. My management process was working - but It became painfully obvious I had to change my way of hunting if I wanted to satisfy both my goals. You just have to decide if you are ok with making the neighbor’s hunting better - at your expense - or if you want to get in on the action, too.
Last year, I said enough. We started baiting and killed a target buck. This year, we have killed three target bucks - including my largest ever. My goal in life is to increase the number of big bucks using my property AND kill a few of them. My management process was working - but It became painfully obvious I had to change my way of hunting if I wanted to satisfy both my goals. You just have to decide if you are ok with making the neighbor’s hunting better - at your expense - or if you want to get in on the action, too.
SD51555
5 year old buck +
I don't think it's that black and white. That same broad brush would argue that protected city deer are as wild as any weary old buck in wolf, bear, and poacher country.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
yeah it has me puzzled. I’ve spent countless hours running scenarios and that’s what kind of led me to the defeatist one of, not much you can do on “smaller tracts”.
And maybe it’s as simple as it takes a few years of sound management before bucks in the area clue into your particular parcel. Until I can expand, if ever, I’m here for the long haul so i will just keep plugging away because if nothing else I love the smell of premix and the sound of a chainsaw!
Peplin Creek
5 year old buck +
If it’s legal I don’t see why baiting wouldn’t be a part of ones habitat strategy along with everything else.
Howboutthemdawgs
5 year old buck +
Yeah I can see a defensive baiting strategy for me but as far as hunting over it, that’s a no go for me. Doesn’t move the meter. It’s not my idea of fair chase.
tynimiller
5 year old buck +
I may be an exception. Few years back went out to Kansas, where baiting was legal (at least then, not sure on their present laws if changed). I sat a feeder one night, was my first personal experience with one. I knew instantly it simply was something I in no way shape or form had an interest in.
Now it isn't legal in my state, but even if it was I honestly wouldn't do it most likely. I feel one can provide grossly more in a much more cost effective manner focusing on early successional growth and herbacious vegetation food sources - but most importantly it just isn't something I have a desire to do.
Triple C
5 year old buck +
@Howboutthemdawgs ...The biggest challenge you face is the same that I face - a very, very long firearm season in GA with a 2 buck limit and for all intents n purposes, unlimited doe harvest (10 per license). I'm pushing 300 acres with great habitat. We've taken our share of decent bucks over the years. But, in a state with a firearms season that runs from mid October to mid January and a 2 buck limit, any 2.5 yr old buck that wanders off your property prolly has a 70% or greater chance of getting shot. Plain and simple. I love hunting my farm. I love hunting in GA. However, regardless of the quality of your habitat and food plots, you prolly won't have a lot of luck of getting a nice 2.5 yr old to 4.5 or older.
I bait, I thin timber, I hinge cut, I plant trees, and I plant nearly 40 acres of food plots - summer and winter plots. I have only baited for a couple of years in my fifty years of hunting - used to hate the thought of it. But, I hate it worse when a ten acre adjacent property owner kills one of my target bucks off a feeder at the edge of his back yard. A deer that would probably not be anywhere near his place if it werent for the thousands of dollars and countless hours I put in to growing and attracting deer. Baiting success is directly proportional to the number of quality bucks available. Thus, the better you manage your property, the more quality bucks you will generally have, and your greater chance for any hunting or baiting success.
And for those who are as ignorant about baiting as I used to be - there is some science to it to be more successful. First off - at my place, hand spread bait is probably twice as attractive to deer - and especially larger bucks - as from a spin feeder. Absentee land owners have trouble with spreading bait every three or four days. Certain baits are much more effective than others. Different baits attract a much larger buck component. Bait placement is very important. Fencing is required in my area to keep hogs out. Deer will often leave bait when acorns drop. Early season hunting is most effective - before bucks break up, before acorn drop, before every other hunter in the state puts out a corn pile. Baiting in my state first got big with the guys who had a 1000 acre lease with 990 acres of ten year old pines on it. They had no acorns to hunt, flat land deer dont tend to walk on trails as much, many timber company leases do not allow food plot work, etc. While it aggravates me that a ten acre land owner kills one of “my” bucks - it gives these guys with no deer habitat a chance for them and their family to kill a deer or two in an area with little or no public land available.
My personal experience shows baiting from end of June to bow opener, especially hand spread, is a big help for killing target bucks before the rut begins. After that, it is not nearly as effective. A spin feeder is not nearly as effective. Corn is not nearly as effective as some other products. I cant really speak to baiting success for late season hunting for target bucks. And all my comments are specifically directed at hunting mature bucks as we dont shoot anything else off a bait pile. Not trying to change anyone’s mind - just educate.
And for those who are as ignorant about baiting as I used to be - there is some science to it to be more successful. First off - at my place, hand spread bait is probably twice as attractive to deer - and especially larger bucks - as from a spin feeder. Absentee land owners have trouble with spreading bait every three or four days. Certain baits are much more effective than others. Different baits attract a much larger buck component. Bait placement is very important. Fencing is required in my area to keep hogs out. Deer will often leave bait when acorns drop. Early season hunting is most effective - before bucks break up, before acorn drop, before every other hunter in the state puts out a corn pile. Baiting in my state first got big with the guys who had a 1000 acre lease with 990 acres of ten year old pines on it. They had no acorns to hunt, flat land deer dont tend to walk on trails as much, many timber company leases do not allow food plot work, etc. While it aggravates me that a ten acre land owner kills one of “my” bucks - it gives these guys with no deer habitat a chance for them and their family to kill a deer or two in an area with little or no public land available.
My personal experience shows baiting from end of June to bow opener, especially hand spread, is a big help for killing target bucks before the rut begins. After that, it is not nearly as effective. A spin feeder is not nearly as effective. Corn is not nearly as effective as some other products. I cant really speak to baiting success for late season hunting for target bucks. And all my comments are specifically directed at hunting mature bucks as we dont shoot anything else off a bait pile. Not trying to change anyone’s mind - just educate.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
He has a valid point if trophy bucks is your goal. There are two limiting factors that you can influence to a point, nutrition and age. You need sufficient acreage to address both. The third is genetics and you can't change that without high fencing.
As far as age goes, if you have sufficient acreage, it is just a matter of discipline to let young bucks walk. Our state does not produce a lot of trophy book bucks and age is the primary limiting factor. The county with the most P&Y bucks is a suburban county with practically no firearm hunting. Deer from that county got plenty of age. Even bowhunting was limited for many years because of development.
Now we come to the real limiting factor that you can only improve to a degree. That is nutrition. You can plant food plots but they end up being a fraction of a deer's diet. Native foods comprise the lion's share of a deer's diet. You can improve soil fertility on a limited area (food plots) with commercial fertilizer and such, but that does not impact the majority of the deer's diet. It is limited by the underlying soil fertility. From a QDM perspective, you can improve the health of the local herd by plugging holes that nature leaves by designing food plots that address major stress periods. This even's out the lows and can make your deer herd the best it can be, but it is still limited by the underlying soil fertility. If you overlay book bucks with farming data (most productive soils) you get a very high correlation.
So, when you buy property that has trophy class bucks, you are buying land that has sufficient nutrition, age, and even genetics to produce those bucks. Short of this, your herd will be limited by the underlying dirt.
Thanks,
Jack
tynimiller
5 year old buck +
You're also using "trophy" by your calibration. Trophy can mean vastly different things to different people, and can vary greatly with areas. I hunt two main properties in the same county...expectations vary greatly between the two and what I'd consider a trophy buck is different off the two.
Sure if all one defines a trophy off of is antler inches measured than sure leave fair chase at the door, remove outside influence and lower stress and grow some incredible deer livestock. Not a flavor I desire even on sale.
SD51555
5 year old buck +
The degree to which those influences affect a person's ability to participate need to be considered. This is a very complex topic. We need to put ourselves in our neighbor's shoes.
What if our neighbor is an elderly fella down on his luck, doesn't have much land or resources, but he gets an enormous thrill and reason to get outta bed each day because of his ability to sit out back and have some time with wildlife and the chance to get some venison over a pile of corn? Is it real? Absolutely not. But should we cast aspersions on him because of his poor lot in life?
What about the next guy who's got a 40, and everyone around him has a 40 and he's completely boxed in. If he's got neighbors that bring in 12 people per camp per season and they haul 2x the DPSM off a couple neighbor parcels alone? Would you fault that guy for taking extreme steps to stay in the game, or should he just fold it up and go home because it isn't fair chase? Nobody has broken the law, but we're far from real hunting with that kind of pressure.
If a guy isn't suffering many or any of the human externalities of fair chase hunting, I could see how the idea of a fence is ludicrous. But such isn't the case in many places, and it's getting worse. Hell if it weren't for the human problem, there'd be no need for any of us to have private land. Perhaps the biggest contrast of this situation would be the difference between fishing and deer hunting. 99% of us fish public land because it still works. There's no mad dash to the private pond world because it isn't that bad yet. But that will change too.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Absolutely! Some of my most valued trophies are does, spikes, 4-points and basket 8s taken by kids I've started in hunting. I believe SD was using term as it relates to Trophy Deer Management and trophy books. My response was in that context. My personal definition of trophy has less to do the with size of the deer than the quality of the hunt.
Having said that I stand by the post qualifying "Trophy Buck" as "Trophy Book Buck". There are many places, including mine, where the chances of shooting a buck that qualifies for a trophy book are very slim. It is not that they are nonexistent. I do get an occasional buck on camera that is probably close, but the average buck in locations with great dirt and age has larger antlers that our top 5%.
Thanks,
Jack
tynimiller
5 year old buck +
I get it, I outlined my whole hunting experiences of never having much, surrounded by pressure - still have some P&Y Book Bucks and one Booner to my name. Sure could be the exception, but I know guys all over southern Michigan with 30, 50, 45 acres putting down 140 inch P&Y caliber bucks despite all the issues surrounding them.
I know a few PA guys, that have upped their odds at a 140+ incher a ton over their last 4 or 5 years of owning a 120 acre slice - one got a near booner this year.
I just despise the defeatist mentality of "its' impossible" "its a waste" because it just simply isn't true in my personal experience and many others. Sure nothing is guaranteed, but c'mon we need less Eeyores in life LOL
FTR appreciate the dialogue, rare these days in forums and it is awesome.
Peplin Creek
5 year old buck +
When I say why wouldn’t baiting be a part of one habitat/harvest goals. I simply don’t mean putting it out to hunt over. If used correctly you could easily create bait sites to help the deer herd get something they are missing in their diet, whether it’s higher protein, salt or other diet factors or just something to let them get through their stress periods. Just because you put it out doesn’t mean you have to hunt over it. Hunt the hallways and stay out of the kitchen and bedroom...
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