Is it too late to plant Durana clover in NY?

[eclipseman]

I have a ladino plot that I started this year by frost seeding back in March. There are some spots that have weeds and I’m not seeing much sign of clover. I was thinking of quickly discing those areas and planting some durana but I think it’s too late. Thoughts? If it is too late what suggestions do you have for these areas?

 

[yoderjac]

I have a ladino plot that I started this year by frost seeding back in March. There are some spots that have weeds and I’m not seeing much sign of clover. I was thinking of quickly discing those areas and planting some durana but I think it’s too late. Thoughts? If it is too late what suggestions do you have for these areas?

It is too early to plant Durana. It is a slow establishing perennial which is much better planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop. You certainly can plant it now but you will be fighting weeds for the life of the plot. If you are itching to disk up the field and plant now, plant buckwheat. It is a 60 to 90 day crop that will improve your soil. The optimal soil temp for germination is 80 degrees but it will germinate at soil temps as low as 45 degrees so you have a wide planting window. It is a fast germinating annual that will out-compete most weeds. Deer will use buckwheat but they won't generally abuse it unless it is a small plot and you have high deer densities. Turkey love the seed and will bug in it.

Come time for your fall plant, I would surface broadcast 100lbs/ac of WR and 10lbs/ac of Durana into the standing buckwheat. Then either cultipack or mow the buckwheat. The buckwheat will form a mulch and once it hits the ground, it will decompose quickly and release the nutrients it scavenged.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

It is too early to plant Durana. It is a slow establishing perennial which is much better planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop. You certainly can plant it now but you will be fighting weeds for the life of the plot. If you are itching to disk up the field and plant now, plant buckwheat. It is a 60 to 90 day crop that will improve your soil. The optimal soil temp for germination is 80 degrees but it will germinate at soil temps as low as 45 degrees so you have a wide planting window. It is a fast germinating annual that will out-compete most weeds. Deer will use buckwheat but they won't generally abuse it unless it is a small plot and you have high deer densities. Turkey love the seed and will bug in it.

Come time for your fall plant, I would surface broadcast 100lbs/ac of WR and 10lbs/ac of Durana into the standing buckwheat. Then either cultipack or mow the buckwheat. The buckwheat will form a mulch and once it hits the ground, it will decompose quickly and release the nutrients it scavenged.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks!

 

[bbcoach]

As Jack said, Durana does so much better when started in the fall. Durana starts slow putting down a good root system with very little top growth. This allows spring planted Durana to be overtaken by weeds the first spring. When started in the fall with a WR or WW cover crop it will put down that great root system and explode during the spring getting ahead of weeds and grasses. Get a soil sample now and apply any lime needed. Good luck this fall.

 

[eclipseman]

It is too early to plant Durana. It is a slow establishing perennial which is much better planted in the fall with a WR nurse crop. You certainly can plant it now but you will be fighting weeds for the life of the plot. If you are itching to disk up the field and plant now, plant buckwheat. It is a 60 to 90 day crop that will improve your soil. The optimal soil temp for germination is 80 degrees but it will germinate at soil temps as low as 45 degrees so you have a wide planting window. It is a fast germinating annual that will out-compete most weeds. Deer will use buckwheat but they won't generally abuse it unless it is a small plot and you have high deer densities. Turkey love the seed and will bug in it.

Come time for your fall plant, I would surface broadcast 100lbs/ac of WR and 10lbs/ac of Durana into the standing buckwheat. Then either cultipack or mow the buckwheat. The buckwheat will form a mulch and once it hits the ground, it will decompose quickly and release the nutrients it scavenged.

Thanks,

Jack

good info. I have a few other thoughts or ideas. To break things down further I have 2 food plots (as I stated in my other thread, sorry for multiple threads but this was a new topic). Both plots are about 2 acres in size. I threw clover, this past February, in the plots knowing that I would ultimately till half of each plot to turn into a oat/rye/brassica plot for this fall. I figured which ever half grows clover better I would leave be, and then till the other half in the fall, in each plot. Well in one plot that kind of worked out...there is clearly one side growing better than the other but in the other plot it did not work out so well as it is simply spotty all over...for example 10 foot by 10 foot squares of areas where clover grew awesome and then even larger areas where it is mostly weeds. So here are my plans...let me know what you think.

Food plot #1: I will leave the clover alone where it grew well on the one side but on the other side I plan to disc up very soon and plant buckwheat (just to have something instead of weeds grow until fall when I will terminate it, till it up and plant brassica/oats). Note: There are a couple patchy spots in the clover where I may throw some crimson clover or red clover...is it too late to broadcast into those spots...thoughts?

Food plot #2: This is the really spotty plot. I think I will just let this plot go for the summer (maybe clover will spring up nicer as time goes by). If not, I will terminate the whole plot and basically start over in the fall. I will have one half be straight brassica and then the other half I will plant durana/ladino with rye as a cover crop. If this is the path I take....when should I plant the clover/rye this fall here in NY?

Any other considerations? As an FYI...I do like brassica...it definitely pulled deer in...even before a frost hit while temps were still warm.

 

[yoderjac]

Sounds like a plan. Cereal is most attractive when it is young. Here in zone 7a (VA) I like to wait until labor day and then plant WR/Clover when I first see rain in the forecast. For brassica, it depends on the type. For brassica with tubers like PTT or GHR, the earlier I plant them the larger the tubers get so I like to plant those in August. I'd go light on the brassica in a mix with cereal. Unless you have a specific reason to use oats, I'd use WR instead. It will overwinter where oats generally will not. I'd also add some Crimson Clover to that mix but I'm not sure about your area. Here Crimson Clover germinates quickly and acts as a reseeding annual. It will bounce back in the spring. This along with the WR will help keep your plot clean of weeds until you are ready to plant next fall.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

Sounds like a plan. Cereal is most attractive when it is young. Here in zone 7a (VA) I like to wait until labor day and then plant WR/Clover when I first see rain in the forecast. For brassica, it depends on the type. For brassica with tubers like PTT or GHR, the earlier I plant them the larger the tubers get so I like to plant those in August. I'd go light on the brassica in a mix with cereal. Unless you have a specific reason to use oats, I'd use WR instead. It will overwinter where oats generally will not. I'd also add some Crimson Clover to that mix but I'm not sure about your area. Here Crimson Clover germinates quickly and acts as a reseeding annual. It will bounce back in the spring. This along with the WR will help keep your plot clean of weeds until you are ready to plant next fall.

Thanks,

Jack

When I meant oats/rye/brassica...I did not necessarily mean mixing them together in that part of the plot. I was thinking of doing like 2/3acre in brassica and then 1/3 acre in oats or rye (sounds like winter rye will be the winner). Do you prefer to mix or keep things separate? As for the type of brassica...I have mixed tubers with non-tubers in the past but the non-tubers started dying early in bow season (around October 15th) which lead to a yellowing brown plot by the time things started getting cold which sucked! The deer definitely ate the tubers in the cold months as there was absolutely nothing left from this past winter (chewed down into the ground). What are your thoughts on the types of brassica I should use? Last year I planted middle of august but this year I'm thinking of waiting till labor day as well. Id rather have smaller tubers with lush green leaves than the plot I ended up with last year.

 

[yoderjac]

When I meant oats/rye/brassica...I did not necessarily mean mixing them together in that part of the plot. I was thinking of doing like 2/3acre in brassica and then 1/3 acre in oats or rye (sounds like winter rye will be the winner). Do you prefer to mix or keep things separate? As for the type of brassica...I have mixed tubers with non-tubers in the past but the non-tubers started dying early in bow season (around October 15th) which lead to a yellowing brown plot by the time things started getting cold which sucked! The deer definitely ate the tubers in the cold months as there was absolutely nothing left from this past winter (chewed down into the ground). What are your thoughts on the types of brassica I should use? Last year I planted middle of august but this year I'm thinking of waiting till labor day as well. Id rather have smaller tubers with lush green leaves than the plot I ended up with last year.

You don't see many monocultures in nature. The more we try to bend nature, the more time and treasure we need to spend. So, my starting point is always a mix. I need a reason to plant a monoculture. We have a lot of weed competition and browse pressure during the summer, but weeds are generally not an issue with my fall plots and there are plenty of native foods in addition to the plots in the fall so browse pressure is less. I typically plant monocultures in the spring because it allows me to control weeds with a herbicide and follow them with a fall mix. Even when I plant monocultures, I mix if I can. For example, I'm far enough south that summer is a stress period for me. I usually plant RR soybeans in the summer but I also include a small amount of RR corn with the beans. This provides a little vertical cover in the field which encourages daytime use and gly can be used to control weeds. When the beans begin to yellow, I'll surface broadcast WR/CC/PTT into the standing beans.

There is nothing wrong with strip planting as long as you rotate what is in the plot. I like mixes because I can choose plants which complement each other. For example, the WR comes up quick and is the fall attractant in my plot. The PTT rate is low so it does not crowd out the other plants. Both of these benefit from the N that was fixed by the soybeans. It provides a good winter food source. The crimson cover takes off the next spring along with the WR. I run a tiller over the field but lift it so high with my 3-pt hitch that it barely contacts the top inch. It is enough to terminate the PTT before it goes to seed but does not cause a problem for the Crimson or WR.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bbcoach]

If I had an acre or more I would strip plant the plots. Since deer are browsers and like variety, I would strip plant brassicas, clover and grains. This will give you multiple types of food and long term food.

 

[eclipseman]

You don't see many monocultures in nature. The more we try to bend nature, the more time and treasure we need to spend. So, my starting point is always a mix. I need a reason to plant a monoculture. We have a lot of weed competition and browse pressure during the summer, but weeds are generally not an issue with my fall plots and there are plenty of native foods in addition to the plots in the fall so browse pressure is less. I typically plant monocultures in the spring because it allows me to control weeds with a herbicide and follow them with a fall mix. Even when I plant monocultures, I mix if I can. For example, I'm far enough south that summer is a stress period for me. I usually plant RR soybeans in the summer but I also include a small amount of RR corn with the beans. This provides a little vertical cover in the field which encourages daytime use and gly can be used to control weeds. When the beans begin to yellow, I'll surface broadcast WR/CC/PTT into the standing beans.

There is nothing wrong with strip planting as long as you rotate what is in the plot. I like mixes because I can choose plants which complement each other. For example, the WR comes up quick and is the fall attractant in my plot. The PTT rate is low so it does not crowd out the other plants. Both of these benefit from the N that was fixed by the soybeans. It provides a good winter food source. The crimson cover takes off the next spring along with the WR. I run a tiller over the field but lift it so high with my 3-pt hitch that it barely contacts the top inch. It is enough to terminate the PTT before it goes to seed but does not cause a problem for the Crimson or WR.

Thanks,

Jack

I was able to pick up some buckwheat and medium red clover on my way home from work yesterday and I was able to plant them yesterday as well. I disked up the few areas which were spotty in the one plot and broadcasted the medium reds (maybe an 1/8 acre total) and then cultipacked them...if these do not come in, it wont be the end of the world. The other plot I ended up disking up about 1/2acre and broadcasted like 40lbs of buckwheat seed and then disked them in. I think this was too much seed but oh well, hopefully they do not choke themselves out. I will let these grow (hopefully through summer) and then do as you suggested and broadcast WR with durana this fall into the standing buckwheat and then either roll the buckwheat or cut it (is one way preferred over the other?). Also, can I do brassica into the buckwheat instead of WR/durana OR would this method not work so well with brassica? Thanks for your help!

 

[yoderjac]

I was able to pick up some buckwheat and medium red clover on my way home from work yesterday and I was able to plant them yesterday as well. I disked up the few areas which were spotty in the one plot and broadcasted the medium reds (maybe an 1/8 acre total) and then cultipacked them...if these do not come in, it wont be the end of the world. The other plot I ended up disking up about 1/2acre and broadcasted like 40lbs of buckwheat seed and then disked them in. I think this was too much seed but oh well, hopefully they do not choke themselves out. I will let these grow (hopefully through summer) and then do as you suggested and broadcast WR with durana this fall into the standing buckwheat and then either roll the buckwheat or cut it (is one way preferred over the other?). Also, can I do brassica into the buckwheat instead of WR/durana OR would this method not work so well with brassica? Thanks for your help!

If you have a cultipacker, I would roll it. Cultipacking helps press the seed you just broadcast into the soil, puts an irregular surface on the soil to help hold rain, and knocks down the buckwheat. Many guys don't have a cultipacker and do fine just mowing. Yes, you can broadcast brassica into standing buckwheat and roll or mow.

In general, tillage introduces O2 into the soil and speeds the consumption of OM, loses soil moisture, and destroys soil tilth. When it comes to tillage, less is more. Many of the seeds we plant for deer don't require tillage. They just require good seed/soil contact.

Buckwheat is very forgiving. You will be fine if you get a little rain.

 

[eclipseman]

If you have a cultipacker, I would roll it. Cultipacking helps press the seed you just broadcast into the soil, puts an irregular surface on the soil to help hold rain, and knocks down the buckwheat. Many guys don't have a cultipacker and do fine just mowing. Yes, you can broadcast brassica into standing buckwheat and roll or mow.

In general, tillage introduces O2 into the soil and speeds the consumption of OM, loses soil moisture, and destroys soil tilth. When it comes to tillage, less is more. Many of the seeds we plant for deer don't require tillage. They just require good seed/soil contact.

Buckwheat is very forgiving. You will be fine if you get a little rain.

thanks! I am doing a rain dance as we speak. Sorry for all the questions but I have one more if you do not mind. I have read that buckwheat can seed out in 45 days. Does it die after this? Should I just let the stand go and seed out/regrow or whatever it will do until I'm ready to plant the brassica at the end of august? Thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

Buckwheat has 60 to 90 days of food value to deer. Turkey love the seed and small game will use it for cover. You can let it stand until you are ready for your fall plant. You can terminate it at any time if you want by mowing or cultipacking. Some folks report that volunteer buckwheat can smother their fall crop. I have never seen that happen. Buckwheat is very frost sensitive and any volunteer plants that deer don't eat will die at the first frost. Whether a volunteer crop can be problematic with a fall plot probably largely depends on your soil and fertility. I would not worry about it until you see it happen. Most of us are not on prime soils.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[eclipseman]

Buckwheat has 60 to 90 days of food value to deer. Turkey love the seed and small game will use it for cover. You can let it stand until you are ready for your fall plant. You can terminate it at any time if you want by mowing or cultipacking. Some folks report that volunteer buckwheat can smother their fall crop. I have never seen that happen. Buckwheat is very frost sensitive and any volunteer plants that deer don't eat will die at the first frost. Whether a volunteer crop can be problematic with a fall plot probably largely depends on your soil and fertility. I would not worry about it until you see it happen. Most of us are not on prime soils.

Thanks,

Jack

I am new to all the different farming lingo. By volunteer crop do you mean if the buckwheat goes to seed and those seeds germinate...they are called a volunteer crop? So what you are saying, if I'm understanding properly is that...should the buckwheat go to seed and then I broadcast my brassica into the plot and then cultipack over (terminating the standing buckwheat and pressing in the brassica seed) that now the buckwheat seeds could germinate along with the brassica? I mean...I do not care if I get some buckwheat growing again into the fall but I would care if the buckwheat did end up outcompeting the brassica which you state is unlikely. So my options are as follows:

1. Terminate the buckwheat before it goes to seed (I could simply just cultipack over it or mow). If this happens before I can plant my brassica, I would just let it lay on the ground and then till it all up and plant my brassica at a later date when I am ready.

2. Let the buckwheat grow and if it goes to seed, don't worry about it as it likely will not outcompete the brassica anyways...broadcast my brassica into standing buckwheat, cultipack it and watch it grow (cross my fingers the buckwheat does not outcompete the brassica)

 

[yoderjac]

yes, that is what a volunteer crop is. Go with option 2. I would say a buckwheat volunteer crop hurting your fall crop is rare but it can happen under some conditions. Just plant as I described when you are ready to plant your fall crop regardless of the state of the buckwheat. More than likely you will be just fine.