Is age the ticket?

[Catscratch]

Much of this stems from previous threads on the forum and I'm just throwing out ideas.

First; it seems that in order of importance (for big antlers in a wild herd) I think I've gathered that age is first, followed by nutrition, and then genetics.
With that said it seems that age is the one thing that we as hunters try to control the most but actually have very little control over. I read over and over that liberal buck tags, small properties, neighbors who bait, neighbors who dog hunt, neighbors who abide by "if it's brown it's down", poachers, etc... are killing all the bucks that we pass on. I believe that passing young deer with exceptional racks is a great idea but how often does it work in the real world? Even if the neighbors don't kill them do we ever get the chance to see them in the daylight? And even if they do survive and come out at huntable times just how many mature bucks can your property hold? If you pass on 10 2.5yr old bucks every year for three years will you have 30 mature bucks on the place? I sometimes feel that we are regulating ourselves into a corner and actually becoming less productive in our goals the harder we try to attain those goals. In all actuality a 160 inch buck is a 160 inch buck, but it does matter to us if it's a 3.5yr old or a 6.5yr old! I read it all the time that the young buck should have been passed and the smaller old buck is a trophy. My point on the age thing is that I'm not sure that saving all 10 of the young bucks is that great of a deal. Maybe thinning the age class down and being happy with a large but young buck would do us good.

Second; nutrition, where it comes from, and it's affects seem to be debatable. I know that guys like Baker can control nutrition and spend a great deal of time focused on it. He can also control age (to an extent) and has a very good grasp on how old a well fed buck needs to get to reach his full potential before age starts to cause decline. His experiences could probably tell us a lot. I feel that widespread soil and native plant management is more important than plot management. In actuality both probably should be addressed extensively. In relation to age, is nutrition actually more important? I've read that some monster deer that have been pen raised are actually quite young. If I ever had a chance to harvest a 200+ buck and found out it was only 3.5... I wouldn't care in the least!

Third is genetics; ranging from culling spikes to assuming bucks are the only one's carrying antler genetics, there have a been a lot of urban myths spread about the importance and manipulation of wild herd genetics. I'm in the boat that we are not capable of changing the system... but I do believe that epigenetics is controllable. Give a wild heard safety, health, and ample nutrition and I maintain that antler quality will change drastically.

I'm not starting this thread to create a pissing match, but I would like to think about our enjoyment from habitat improvement and QDM, and assess if we truly have our priorities figured out accurately. I know it's different for everyone but I hear it all the time that people are passing deer with basically no hope ever seeing them again. Instead of focusing on passing nice young bucks should we be focusing on growing nice young bucks and shooting them? I don't know... what's your thoughts?

 

[Native Hunter]

I would probably have a hard time being able to judge that the 200+ that you mentioned was only 3.5 years old. My guess is that if I saw a 200+ I would assume he was older than 3, so I would likely shoot.

However, even though I am a small property owner we have had decent luck with passing pretty young deer and getting to see them another year. I think at least 30% of the time it works out for us on our place. We may or may not be the one who later gets the deer when it is mature, but either way, we had a chance the next year because we passed the deer.

I have 4 years of picture history on the biggest buck we have ever taken off our land. I could have killed that deer numerous times in prior years, but he wasn't extremely impressive until that last year. For us, passing young deer has worked just enough for us to feel like it is the right thing to do. The deer I'm hunting right now is one that we passed 5 times during gun season last year. He made it to this year and blew up real nice. Even if I don't get him, I still think it was the right thing to do, and my first few days of hunting has been awesome - knowing he could step out at any time. Rain moving in tomorrow morning, and I'm thinking about spending the whole day hunting.

However, I don't look down on anyone in a different situation who makes a different decision about passing or not passing deer. Best wishes to everyone.

 

[Catscratch]

I would probably have a hard time being able to judge that the 200+ that you mentioned was only 3.5 years old. My guess is that if I saw a 200+ I would assume he was older than 3, so I would likely shoot.

However, even though I am a small property owner we have had decent luck with passing pretty young deer and getting to see them another year. I think at least 30% of the time it works out for us on our place. We may or may not be the one who later gets the deer when it is mature, but either way, we had a chance the next year because we passed the deer.

I have 4 years of picture history on the biggest buck we have ever taken off our land. I could have killed that deer numerous times in prior years, but he wasn't extremely impressive until that last year. For us, passing young deer has worked just enough for us to feel like it is the right thing to do. The deer I'm hunting right now is one that we passed 5 times during gun season last year. He made it to this year and blew up real nice. Even if I don't get him, I still think it was the right thing to do, and my first few days of hunting has been awesome - knowing he could step out at any time. Rain moving in tomorrow morning, and I'm thinking about spending the whole day hunting.

However, I don't look down on anyone in a different situation who makes a different decision about passing or not passing deer. Best wishes to everyone.

I'm glad you replied. You are one of the few that I read on here that is having success at developing older age class bucks (I think chainsaw might be another if memory serves me correctly). Very often though, I hear shame or disappointment in shooting a young buck that had exceptional antlers. Or frustration in passing deer just to never see them again. I believe that you are an exception, that most of the land owners are not seeing the deer that they pass on in later stages of life.

What specifically do you attribute your success to (at getting deer to older age classes)? Do you have good neighbors? Do you have a large property? Do you have exceptional cover? Do you have exceptional nutrition? Are you an exceptional hunter? Or is it a combination?

 

[Bszweda]

I think the hunters happiness is the ticket. I think the person needs to understand their property and decide if passing bucks make sense. I have a rut property and get very little activity till the first week of november. If had a property that I knew had a local home body buck passing it might make more sense. Either way I am not going to shoot something that doesn't make me happy.

 

[Tree Spud]

Much of this stems from previous threads on the forum and I'm just throwing out ideas.

First; it seems that in order of importance (for big antlers in a wild herd) I think I've gathered that age is first, followed by nutrition, and then genetics.

Cat ... Not completely clear on your question ... do you want more bucks, bigger body bucks, or bigger racks?

To your "First" supposition ... I have hunted properties in WI/IL where a 2.5 year old can reach mid 120's to mid 130's. I have those on my property. There are reasons for that.

Of the 3 conditions you offer, age is irrelevant unless you have the right genetics & soil. To get to age, you need cover, sanctuary, and cooperation of neighbors. Genetics & soil are ground work for body and bone mass development.

We have recorded 200", 170"-195", and multiple 150" plus deer taken. The last 4 years neighbors who fence sit are excited when they take a 122" buck ... The other problem is that the neighbors are poor hunters who are constantly wounding deer.

When you consistently pass on 3.5 & 4.5 year old deer, and the neighbors are banging away a 2.5 year old deer, Very little hope that you will see thatbuck reach the mauture stage where they are 150"-160" .

All my neighbors are "QDM" until the first buck steps in front of them ...

 

[Rlsbowhunt]

I wonder this myself sometimes. It seems like we usually killed the same size deer when we just shot " big" deer as we do now shooting older deer.
I will say that over time I have actually come to think that genetics and nutrition are higher on the list for making big bucks than age. In the past several years we have shot several 5.5 + deer that are under 130 while passing several larger but younger deer. Many of which our neighbors shoot,
So who knows lol.

 

[SwampCat]

I believe it is a combination of age and nutrition/food. We have a little over 300 acres. Typically, we shoot 4.5 yr old or older bucks - and no does. I would say we also average about a 1/3 of the 3.5 and older bucks showing up next year. And we always have a couple new, mature bucks show. For the most part, Our bucks peak at 4.5/5.5. We have four, 4.5 or older bucks using our place this season. Two of them were here last year. Last year, we had four 4.5 or older bucks and one 3.5. We killed two of the older bucks and the 3.5 was killed on neighboring property.

I dont know that my forty or so acres of planting produce bigger bucks - but it attracts bigger bucks. It also attracts more does, which attracts more bucks. I keep more does on my land, and they produce their fawns on my land. There is absolutely no comparison in the number of deer, the number of bucks, and the number of older bucks we have since I started planting so much. I havent been brave enough to try it yet, but I almost believe I could kill all the 2.5 and older bucks and their place would be taken next year by a new crop. Like when you catch a big fish out of brushpile - another one soon takes his place. I put planting above passing for having number of bigger bucks on my land. But both help.

 

[Native Hunter]

I'm glad you replied. You are one of the few that I read on here that is having success at developing older age class bucks (I think chainsaw might be another if memory serves me correctly). Very often though, I hear shame or disappointment in shooting a young buck that had exceptional antlers. Or frustration in passing deer just to never see them again. I believe that you are an exception, that most of the land owners are not seeing the deer that they pass on in later stages of life.

What specifically do you attribute your success to (at getting deer to older age classes)? Do you have good neighbors? Do you have a large property? Do you have exceptional cover? Do you have exceptional nutrition? Are you an exceptional hunter? Or is it a combination?

Thanks Catscratch. First of all I need to make it clear that we do have our disappointments too. I can think of several nice young deer that I'm sure got shot in gun season based on what I observed on trail cameras. Also, two years ago, the last picture we ever had of the big mature deer we wanted to hunt was taken two hours before daylight on opening morning. That was a surprise, because he was such a homebody.

• The property is not large - only 100 acres.
• The cover is way above average. 60 acres of tall NWSGs with thick cedar fence rows and woods that are thick too.
• Nutrition is probably better than average. Lots of chestnuts, acorns and other mast falling and plots with something available most any time. Plenty of good browse, and this year I got the bonus of a neighbor starting to grow 70 acres of beans.
• I'm not an exceptional hunter. However, I do feel that I have a knack for placing and using cameras to my advantage. I am also a stickler for hunting as covertly as possible and not pressuring deer.
• I feel my neighbor to the south is good, and we exchange information. He will pass a nice young deer. To the east, I don't know the people that well, but they seem to shoot a lot. To the North is a highway, but across that highway, brown is down. To the west is civilization. This may sound strange, but I feel that side is the safest for deer, because it is just house and yards that direction. My cover butting up to that is dense, and I plan on keeping it that way.

I've just tried to give the deer every possible thing they could want, and we try to keep pressure to a minimum. I think those two things have made some difference. Our cover is good enough that if a young buck does get shot at and wises up, he will probably run there and hide and hopefully remember where he was safe when the next year rolls around.

 

[buckdeer1]

Depending on the size of land and how susceptible deer movement is most properties of say 100 acres won't probably hole more than 1 or 2 mature and they will likly travel at least a mile ,that doesn't mean that other bucks won't travel through or come onto that property.I passed a nice buck last year because I thought he could be more and he was this year,he scored 158 and my neighbor shot him 200 yards from my property line.It's kind of funny he was on another site about how all the habitat work paid off.But he has done nothing but dump a corn pile,they do nothing.So you have to be able to think about it still as a success because he got a year old and probably spread his genes and another day another time maybe it would have been one of us that got a shot at him.I think one thing that can determine whether a mature buck stays somewhere is their personality meaning if they are a bully buck or a buck that gets bullied and leaves

 

[Greta&Gus]

I have found my enjoyment has gone up considerably when I focus less on antlers and age and more on the enjoyment of the hunt, the meat, and the overall health/size of the heard. Restrictions on hunting make it less enjoyable for me. Our entire groups is happier after taking away any standards.

 

[SwampCat]

I have found my enjoyment has gone up considerably when I focus less on antlers and age and more on the enjoyment of the hunt, the meat, and the overall health/size of the heard. Restrictions on hunting make it less enjoyable for me. Our entire groups is happier after taking away any standards.

Our state has a week long muzzle loader season in which we go to public land and shoot our does for meat and lower our buck standards. It is not all that uncommon for one us us to not see a deer during a day of hunting on public ground. I enjoy that hunt very much. However, if we hunted with the same goals on our own land, we would kill a doe or a 90” 8 pt almost every time out on our own property. There would be very little challenge. We would be done hunting the first day of season. It didnt used to be like that on our own land - but a lot of time, effort, and money has greatly improved deer numbers and buck quality.

We just adjust our goals to be realistic with the ground we are hunting.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I have found my enjoyment has gone up considerably when I focus less on antlers and age and more on the enjoyment of the hunt, the meat, and the overall health/size of the heard. Restrictions on hunting make it less enjoyable for me. Our entire groups is happier after taking away any standards.

I am in the same boat. I live in a "if it's brown it's down" state. Lots of deer drives and buckshot hunters. In my 30 years of hunting I can count on one hand the number of truly nice bucks I've ever seen. They just don't come around that often. On my small 30 acres if I passed on any legal buck there is a good chance I would never see it again and never fill the freezer. Besides that I also live in a region of the country with abysmally poor soils. So, I don't have age on my side or nutrition. I'll pass on spike and forkhorn yearlings. I don't shoot does. I will generally take a decent 2.5 YO for the freezer when I can. Then I can sit back and be more selective and hope for a bigger deer. I think of what I do as QHM....Quality Hunt Management. I do what I can so that my hunts are more enjoyable and that my family and I have a decent chance of seeing more deer and taking a legal buck.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Thanks Catscratch. First of all I need to make it clear that we do have our disappointments too. I can think of several nice young deer that I'm sure got shot in gun season based on what I observed on trail cameras. Also, two years ago, the last picture we ever had of the big mature deer we wanted to hunt was taken two hours before daylight on opening morning. That was a surprise, because he was such a homebody.

• The property is not large - only 100 acres.
• The cover is way above average. 60 acres of tall NWSGs with thick cedar fence rows and woods that are thick too.
• Nutrition is probably better than average. Lots of chestnuts, acorns and other mast falling and plots with something available most any time. Plenty of good browse, and this year I got the bonus of a neighbor starting to grow 70 acres of beans.
• I'm not an exceptional hunter. However, I do feel that I have a knack for placing and using cameras to my advantage. I am also a stickler for hunting as covertly as possible and not pressuring deer.
• I feel my neighbor to the south is good, and we exchange information. He will pass a nice young deer. To the east, I don't know the people that well, but they seem to shoot a lot. To the North is a highway, but across that highway, brown is down. To the west is civilization. This may sound strange, but I feel that side is the safest for deer, because it is just house and yards that direction. My cover butting up to that is dense, and I plan on keeping it that way.

I've just tried to give the deer every possible thing they could want, and we try to keep pressure to a minimum. I think those two things have made some difference. Our cover is good enough that if a young buck does get shot at and wises up, he will probably run there and hide and hopefully remember where he was safe when the next year rolls around.

Steve,

What is your camera placement strategy ?

thanks,
bill

 

[Native Hunter]

Steve,

What is your camera placement strategy ?

thanks,
bill

Bill, my strategy is to learn as much as I can without getting too close to pressure Deer. It can be a fine line to walk. I have bought into the theory of sanctuary. The bigger the better, but even a small sanctuary area can be worthwhile.

 

[SwampCat]

I have a “book of bucks”. A pdf file I update and send to the three people besides myself who hunt my property. It contains pictures of the legal bucks (3 apr restriction in my state), a one or two word description, and a shoot or no shoot. On my 300 acres, I think I now have pictures of around 20 different bucks with at least 3 pt on one side. Obviously, they dont all live soley on the three hundred acres. They come and go off neighboring lands. While I have a lot of ground we dont go in, I live on my place, I am retired, and spend my days out and about. My deer - including the biggest bucks - are used to me. They see and hear me on the tractor every other day. My wife and I make a side by side ride around the place every evening unless we arent home or are out hunting. I coon and squirrel hunt my place during winter - with a dog. I trap. I have several duck holes where me might shoot 100 times in the morning and deer hunt that afternoon 100 yards from the blind and see the biggest buck on the place. The best stand for big bucks on my place is 100 yards off the state hwy, right in front of my neighbor’s pature full of cows where he feeds them during fall and winter, beating and banging with his blue healer barking at them - not the stands two miles down in the bottoms away from all human sounds except an airplane flying over. I think deer are comfortable with what they see and hear year round. If they see and hear you all year - they are used to it. If you are unobtrusive on your place - they get used to that to - but then you show up everyday during hunting season - they lay low.

I have an acquaintance who has a 300 acre farm. He gets there at most, about every other weekend during the non hunting season. When hunting season comes, he is there quite a bit - and his deer go nocturnal. During hunting season, my deer dont go any more nocturnal than they already are.

I also think some deer are roamers and some not. I have a tall, narrow racked 3.5 yr old that I got a picture of the other day working a scrape near the highway and five hours later was walking through a food plot a mile and a half away. That type of deer is more susceptible to being killed. I have a big wide 8 pt, 5.5 year old deer. He has been almost wholly nocturnal the three years I have been getting pictures of him. I have one daytime picture in that time. We have seen him once - and I am not talking during hunting season - once in three years, period. He hardly ever visits a food plot. He lives on the north side of my property, which backs up to a small community of a dozen folks who own five to twenty acres - everyone of them with a corn feeder - yet somehow he survives - them and the highway. Other bucks will get as regular as clockwork - visiting a food plot every evening.

I try to attract as many bucks to my place as possible and provide as much for them, year round, that they feel comfortable and make my property their kitchen - hoping they spend as much time here as possible. I try to make my place attractive to the does - year round - so they bear their fawns and raise them on my place - hoping their fawns will be more likely to include my land in their home range.

As an example of what food plots can do. This year, the floods destroyed all my clover and then the drought got all my soybeans and sunflowers. I normally would have had about thirty acres of food plots - but only had two. During my September camera surveys, i average 16 to 18 bucks. This year I had six. I planted fall food plots around the first of Oct. we had abundant rain and ideal growing conditions. Within a month of planting - I had pictures of about 30 different bucks. That is what food plots will do in my area. We have no ag.

But, even with all my attention to detail, one of our hunters will kill a nice up and comer. Me, my wife, my son, and his buddy are who hunt my place. I only hunt my land intermittently - leaving it mostly for the others. My son’s buddy likes to still hunt - and he often does not have the time to fully evaluate a buck and is prone to shooting a nice 3 yr old. My wife isnt absorbed by the whole deer management thing and doesnt learn each deer by name, like my son and I do. We have a big bodied, older 7 pt that we will shoot if we see him. My wife saw a “big”, seven pt yesterday, and killed him. Turned out he was one of our nicer 3.5 yr old deer that was a nine pt and broke off two points since I posted the picture. But so be it, she was happy with the deer and I was happy for her. The best laid plans of mice and men. To be honest, I would rather her kill that deer than a neighbor with five acres and a corn feeder.

 

[j-bird]

As far as I am concerned....it's a 3 legged stool...especially in a wild herd. Now we can do some things to help in some areas, but in all reality, I don't think we have as great of an impact as we think. I think managing deer is a lot like the old saying of raising a child, "It takes a village".

Some of us may have naturally more fertile soils than others...I think if you follow the major river systems in the country the P&Y and B&C data will show that those areas report more "trophies" than others. Fertile soil on a regional basis increases the nutritional intake of the deer with EVERYTHING they eat. Toss in that many of those areas also support agriculture and that helps even more. Genetics are one of those things that I am not sure we can really impact much at all in the wild and where in some cases what constitutes a "trophy" is subjective. Age is one of those things that again - tends to extend beyond the scope of the individual. You your area is a "brown is down" area...it's gonna be tough. If you only control 100 acres - and your neighbors have different ideas...it's gonna be tough. One the other hand I am not convinced that every 5 or 6 year old buck with be B&C caliber either.

I think many of us simply try to work with what we have and as such I think we need to deal with some realities and temper some expectations. From Florida to Texas to Maine to the Dakota's...the soil is different, the cover is different, the genetic strains of deer are different, the types of available food is different and the hunting methods and densities are different. Just because P&Y or B&C determine what a "trophy" is....doesn't mean that is really the case. If I had won the powerball and was looking for a new deer property. I would first look at the map and follow the rivers (the Mississippi, Ohio, Arkansas, Missouri to name a few)...then I'm looking for areas of roughly 50/50 mixed cover and row crops and then I'm looking for as large of a piece as I can find and hopefully neighbors of really large parcels as well. The genetics - I'll take my chances...nutrition and age...those I have little impact over, but I feel I do have some. If I have 20 acres in my back yard - then I work with what I have and have to temper back my expectations....

 

[FarmerDan]

As far as I am concerned....it's a 3 legged stool...especially in a wild herd. Now we can do some things to help in some areas, but in all reality, I don't think we have as great of an impact as we think. ....

Amen, friend! Amen!

 

[SwampCat]

As far as I am concerned....it's a 3 legged stool...especially in a wild herd. Now we can do some things to help in some areas, but in all reality, I don't think we have as great of an impact as we think. I think managing deer is a lot like the old saying of raising a child, "It takes a village".

Some of us may have naturally more fertile soils than others...I think if you follow the major river systems in the country the P&Y and B&C data will show that those areas report more "trophies" than others. Fertile soil on a regional basis increases the nutritional intake of the deer with EVERYTHING they eat. Toss in that many of those areas also support agriculture and that helps even more. Genetics are one of those things that I am not sure we can really impact much at all in the wild and where in some cases what constitutes a "trophy" is subjective. Age is one of those things that again - tends to extend beyond the scope of the individual. You your area is a "brown is down" area...it's gonna be tough. If you only control 100 acres - and your neighbors have different ideas...it's gonna be tough. One the other hand I am not convinced that every 5 or 6 year old buck with be B&C caliber either.

I think many of us simply try to work with what we have and as such I think we need to deal with some realities and temper some expectations. From Florida to Texas to Maine to the Dakota's...the soil is different, the cover is different, the genetic strains of deer are different, the types of available food is different and the hunting methods and densities are different. Just because P&Y or B&C determine what a "trophy" is....doesn't mean that is really the case. If I had won the powerball and was looking for a new deer property. I would first look at the map and follow the rivers (the Mississippi, Ohio, Arkansas, Missouri to name a few)...then I'm looking for areas of roughly 50/50 mixed cover and row crops and then I'm looking for as large of a piece as I can find and hopefully neighbors of really large parcels as well. The genetics - I'll take my chances...nutrition and age...those I have little impact over, but I feel I do have some. If I have 20 acres in my back yard - then I work with what I have and have to temper back my expectations....

Agree 100 percent. You have to be realistic. We hunt more mature bucks than big antlers. Our average 4.5/5.5 yr old deer will probably score 115-120. Then, most start down hill after 5.5. We do get some nice deer - up to the 150" range - but they are a freak - truly outside of what is normal. We consider a 4.5 or 5.5 yr old deer a trophy - regardless of what his antlers look like. If every buck in our woods lived to 6.5 yrs old - we still wouldn't be shooting B&C class deer. Understand what your area is capable of producing on a realistic basis - and work from there.

 

[Baker]

I think I see a couple different questions in the original post. The first seems to be about big antlers in a wild herd and then a more philosophical question about enjoying the process and shooting whatever appeals to you.

I think the second question is easy to answer in that it all has to create enjoyment with outcomes aligned with the unique circumstances we are all faced with. I've long contended that if you see a deer that rings your bell then shoot him. Period. Shooting or not shooting any one buck makes no difference at the end of the day. And if your managing small acreage in a neighborhood of small hunted acreages the opportunity to maximize age structure is remote. Frankly the opportunity to manage most aspects of a deer herd in that circumstance are remote. SO enjoy the process.

To the chicken and egg question of which is most important..age , nutrition, or genetics, the answer is yes. And it depends....on what your goals are.

Age-- Age is always your friend. Generally bucks antler growth increases annually to some where between 4 and 10+ depending on which subspecies , the variants in annual nutrition, injury, illness and post rut recovery. This trajectory in growth is independent of overall nutrition resulting from soil quality. Thus a mature buck in the FLa. Keys will most likely have much smaller antlers than a mature buck in Pikes County Il but a mature buck will almost always be bigger than an immature buck in both regions. I have come to believe that antler growth in La. peaks somewhere around 6 or 7 whereas in Mexico its more like 8-10 though we grew a 233" buck at 13 once in mexico. When they peak is somewhat individual. If your goal is to grow the biggest bucks possible it is imperative that as many bucks as possible get to the most mature age classes. Since most managers aren't in that position then change accordingly.

Another thing to consider when passing up younger bucks hoping they will age is natural mortality. We find numerous dead bucks every year on the farm and it has been quite an education understanding how much natural mortality there is.

So, at what age is best for a buck to be shot...when he rings your bell. The best buck we have taken on our farm was shot at 5 yrs old . Would he have been bigger at 6 or 7; probably . But at 227 he was big enough. { and we didn't care in the least }

Nutrition -- Nutrition is the high tide that lifts all boats. It is a controllable variable irrespective of where you are. Nutrition can shift genetics positively or negatively over the long term. But if bucks aren't allowed to mature for whatever reason then the investment in nutrition should be carefully considered. Cheapest is habitat mgt. From there food plots then protein supplementation. DO you want to invest a lot in nutrition if the odds are the bucks eating the nutrition are being shot elsewhere. Personal decision.

Genetics-- Epigenetic science has proven the plasticity of genetics. Not being a scientist and unencumbered with the scientific method I propose that genetics are the least anyone should be concerned with and generally most herds are not genetically compromised rather nutritionally compromised. And most bucks shot everywhere are immature so who knows what there genetic potential even is? Simple question to understand genetic potential: Are your deer on perfect nutrition 365 days year for decades and all bucks allowed to fully mature? That is where you learn the genetic potential of your deer.

 

[SwampCat]

I think I see a couple different questions in the original post. The first seems to be about big antlers in a wild herd and then a more philosophical question about enjoying the process and shooting whatever appeals to you.

I think the second question is easy to answer in that it all has to create enjoyment with outcomes aligned with the unique circumstances we are all faced with. I've long contended that if you see a deer that rings your bell then shoot him. Period. Shooting or not shooting any one buck makes no difference at the end of the day. And if your managing small acreage in a neighborhood of small hunted acreages the opportunity to maximize age structure is remote. Frankly the opportunity to manage most aspects of a deer herd in that circumstance are remote. SO enjoy the process.

To the chicken and egg question of which is most important..age , nutrition, or genetics, the answer is yes. And it depends....on what your goals are.

Age-- Age is always your friend. Generally bucks antler growth increases annually to some where between 4 and 10+ depending on which subspecies , the variants in annual nutrition, injury, illness and post rut recovery. This trajectory in growth is independent of overall nutrition resulting from soil quality. Thus a mature buck in the FLa. Keys will most likely have much smaller antlers than a mature buck in Pikes County Il but a mature buck will almost always be bigger than an immature buck in both regions. I have come to believe that antler growth in La. peaks somewhere around 6 or 7 whereas in Mexico its more like 8-10 though we grew a 233" buck at 13 once in mexico. When they peak is somewhat individual. If your goal is to grow the biggest bucks possible it is imperative that as many bucks as possible get to the most mature age classes. Since most managers aren't in that position then change accordingly.

Another thing to consider when passing up younger bucks hoping they will age is natural mortality. We find numerous dead bucks every year on the farm and it has been quite an education understanding how much natural mortality there is.

So, at what age is best for a buck to be shot...when he rings your bell. The best buck we have taken on our farm was shot at 5 yrs old . Would he have been bigger at 6 or 7; probably . But at 227 he was big enough. { and we didn't care in the least }

Nutrition -- Nutrition is the high tide that lifts all boats. It is a controllable variable irrespective of where you are. Nutrition can shift genetics positively or negatively over the long term. But if bucks aren't allowed to mature for whatever reason then the investment in nutrition should be carefully considered. Cheapest is habitat mgt. From there food plots then protein supplementation. DO you want to invest a lot in nutrition if the odds are the bucks eating the nutrition are being shot elsewhere. Personal decision.

Genetics-- Epigenetic science has proven the plasticity of genetics. Not being a scientist and unencumbered with the scientific method I propose that genetics are the least anyone should be concerned with and generally most herds are not genetically compromised rather nutritionally compromised. And most bucks shot everywhere are immature so who knows what there genetic potential even is? Simple question to understand genetic potential: Are your deer on perfect nutrition 365 days year for decades and all bucks allowed to fully mature? That is where you learn the genetic potential of your deer.

When you got to where you could control your bucks destiny - so to speak - and got them feeding heavily on protein supplement - did you notice any shift in the age at which their antlers peaked. In general, out bucks peak at 5.5 and then start down hill. But, most places they peak at a later age. Our bucks are not known for big antlers - south Arkansas piney woods - and probably average about 120" at 4.5/5.5 years old. When the nutrition is improved - does the age at which they pick move to later in life?