Is age the ticket?

[Baker]

Its easier to answer your question from my experience in Mexico vs. La because we feed year round down there and supplementation is a much bigger part of their diet. And the answerI believe is yes. Once the deer were firmly established on pellets after several years then we did see the antler growth increasing and peaking later in life. That may be anecdotal as the herd has improved so much from when we stared and we have so many more bucks getting to the older age classes. Nonetheless I believe it true because the overall physical health of the herd has improved so much.

In La. I feed only part of the year to maximize fawn recruitment and during antler growing . There aren't as many years with bucks in the older age classes or dieing of old age.

 

[Greta&Gus]

Our state has a week long muzzle loader season in which we go to public land and shoot our does for meat and lower our buck standards. It is not all that uncommon for one us us to not see a deer during a day of hunting on public ground. I enjoy that hunt very much. However, if we hunted with the same goals on our own land, we would kill a doe or a 90” 8 pt almost every time out on our own property. There would be very little challenge. We would be done hunting the first day of season. It didnt used to be like that on our own land - but a lot of time, effort, and money has greatly improved deer numbers and buck quality.

We just adjust our goals to be realistic with the ground we are hunting.

I don't think you are that far off from myself. The term 'goal' has a different connotation than 'standard'. The difference is you can personally set a goal and work towards it but a standard requires me to push my goals on others.

At least that is the way I see it.

 

[Greta&Gus]

I am in the same boat. I live in a "if it's brown it's down" state. Lots of deer drives and buckshot hunters. In my 30 years of hunting I can count on one hand the number of truly nice bucks I've ever seen. They just don't come around that often. On my small 30 acres if I passed on any legal buck there is a good chance I would never see it again and never fill the freezer. Besides that I also live in a region of the country with abysmally poor soils. So, I don't have age on my side or nutrition. I'll pass on spike and forkhorn yearlings. I don't shoot does. I will generally take a decent 2.5 YO for the freezer when I can. Then I can sit back and be more selective and hope for a bigger deer. I think of what I do as QHM....Quality Hunt Management. I do what I can so that my hunts are more enjoyable and that my family and I have a decent chance of seeing more deer and taking a legal buck.

I am going to steal, and use, the term Quality Hunt Management. That to me sounds exactly what I am looking for.

 

[Catscratch]

My original post was not worded well (had an idea but been pretty busy so I didn't take a lot of time to clean things up). I have a decent understanding of age/nutrition/genetics and how they relate to deer, but freely admit I'm still learning on all accounts. With that said I think I do have a two part question; philosophically... should everyone be interested in the age of bucks, and is there a way to grow big young bucks on properties where gaining age is unlikely?

My general idea is that there are people fighting (so to speak) their situation in attempts to get deer old enough to consider them trophies (either in years or inches). For these people I'm wondering if a shift of age being the trophy parameter to antlers being the trophy parameter is something that would make hunting and habitat management more enjoyable. If antlers became a persons sole judge of trophy status then a 140 class 3.5yr old could be a trophy. It would be a trophy that was huntable for them and a goal that is somewhat likely to be seen to fruition. From what I read and gather from conversations the general consensus is that a 140 3.5yr old should be passed by most people to grow into his potential, but the opportunity to harvest him at 6.5 is exceedingly rare for many. So... for the people who can't control their herd age class due to circumstances out of their control can young deer be grown big? I know it can be done in a pen but can it be done in a wild herd?

As you can gather from my posts on this I'm kind of rambling... but I've loved the responses to the topic. I've actually been surprised at the number of responses that say they shoot whatever floats their boat or just hunt other properties to shoot what they want. Lots of good input and discussion.

 

[Baker]

Short answer. 3 year old bucks can absolutely be big enough grown in the wild to please most. Easier done if on a high nutritional plane

 

[Baker]

This 3 yr old work for most? Wild, free range native

 

[Catscratch]

^^^ Big enough for me! But do you have pics of him as a 7yr old?

 

[Bill]

I plant food plots but can't speak to nutritional benifits like Baker can.

I do agree with him that age is "always" your friend. I've seen some pretty poor 2.5 get impressive at 5. Not booner impressive but nice bucks. But if you letting them age, makes you your neighbors best friend you may be sucking the fun out of it. We all got into this because it's fun to hunt and shoot deer. It's not hard to suck the fun out of it.

No way I'd let the deer walk that I do on a small property surrounded by small properties. I somehow hit the deer lottery when I bought my place. Like minded large properties surround me. We have a few small parcels, road hunters, poachers and car hits but everyone has that.

I've made many improvements that have had great results in the number of mature deer on my place. I highly doubt that would be the case if the neighborhood was different. Not saying it would be a failure just not as successful.

I think videos, marketing, social media and even forums like ours gives people false hopes. (At the very least exaggerated hopes)

When I got into QDM I believe the original goal was let a buck live to 2.5 for better age structure. How far past that you can push the needle depends a lot on influences off your property.

To keep the fun in it, I think it's important to be honest with yourself. Nothing wrong with pushing the needle to try things. If doing so ends up disappointing long term one has lost the reason this started.

To the original ?
Show me a 3.5 year old 160 in the wild on my farm and I'm shooting his ass! Won't matter what next year would bring because he'd be on my wall in the 4.5 year.

Someday I might think different. But that's a personal decision not a moral one.

 

[Native Hunter]

It just worked for me again


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[Baker]

About time Native!!! Details please

 

[Mortenson]

Hell yeah!! We've all been waiting for that pic!

 

[Baker]

^^^ Big enough for me! But do you have pics of him as a 7yr old?

While we are waiting for Native to report in hopefully with great pics and story I'll tell you about this deer.

I got his pic last October and saw him a couple of times from the truck.I was back to the ranch in December hunting him 2 months trying to get video. Never saw him nor did anyone else. I fear he was killed by lions [ for which I expect a big " I told you so " from Native ] Will see if he shows up this year

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Native, post #29 - Real happy for you !!! Let's see more pix and hear the story. Remote handshake !!

In Pa., you're hard-pressed to change the minds of guys who may only have a day or 2 off work to hunt, or the old-guard "brown / down" age bracket. I can only speak from our experiences here in N.C. Pa. Since antler restrictions went into effect, we've seen more bucks get some age on them. Now we regularly see 7 to 10 pts. in the 100" to 130" class, where before AR, if you saw ONE deer like that, it was monumental. Before AR, a 3" tall spike was legal and he was toast. And I was guilty of shooting barely legal spikes.

When AR were implemented, I was glad to see it happen. From all the chatter I've heard here, most hunters are happy they're seeing more bigger-racked bucks. So AR is part of a trend toward bigger bucks here. More camps are planting food plots these days and planting hard & soft mast trees as well, so nutrition is much better than past years. I'm sure that also plays a part.

As for hunter satisfaction - I think it's up to each individual to decide what's a trophy worth taking. If a 120" buck is a pretty good buck for your region, take him. If you're a 150" or over guy, so be it. I can say that for more of the guys around my hunting area and in my camp, we like taking bucks that are bigger than in past years. So - that means bucks of 110" to 130" will be the normal range, and lesser bucks will most likely walk. I personally want to hold for 120" or better these days. That's a big improvement over the old ways. The one thing I've noticed here is that since AR and some voluntary trigger restraint, seeing more bigger bucks has led to more trigger restraint. In the part of Pa. that I hunt, a 140" to 150" buck is an outlier - and cause for a change of underwear !!

 

[SWIFFY]

I have 80 acres surrounded by its brown-its down hunters. Id personally rather shoot an older deer than a big scoring deer but its rarely in the cards. You have to work with whats realistic in your area. Charles Alsheimer had wrote that regardless of where you hunt, hunt the top 10%. Thats what I try to do. I dont like shooting 3 yr olds... but i enjoy hunting and harvesting deer so sometimes that has to be good enough.

That said, I hate when people justify shooting a buck because the neighbors otherwise will. Shoot it if your happy with it, but not because the other guy will. On my 80 I usually have a few 2 yr olds and maybe even a couple 3 yr olds. There has been several times I could have shot them knowing the neighbors would, but they are the homebodies and the most likely to stay. The only way they will die FOR SURE is if I SHOOT them. Im not out to save 30 bucks... I wish I could... but im just trying to save 1! He could be "the one" next year.

Every hunter and landowner believes in the fundamentals of QDM... but there are so so few that have the integrity and self discipline to truly practice it. And theres nothing wrong with that, as long as people are enjoying the hunt. I cant imagine there are many practices as talked about and preached as QDM, but when the "rubber hits the road" so few of them cant hold off the trigger and practice what they preach.

After learning what a buck is capable of at 5 or 6 years of age... KNOWLEDGE is the real curse! I would shoot a buck thats a 180" 3 yr old... but id go to my grave feeling bad about it and always wondering what he could have been! So the quality of my hunts has been slightly lessened only because I have higher hopes for the animal than what I know is realistically possible. But I still have fun trying! Some years all our efforts in food and habitat and passing young bucks pay off ( as it did this year for Native and Bill for example) and it is the pinnacle of what we do! Those are the moments we do it for!

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I am going to steal, and use, the term Quality Hunt Management. That to me sounds exactly what I am looking for.

Just connected this morning! My first buck in 5 years.

Veteran's Day Buck

 

[Catscratch]

As I read this thread and reflect on my own hunting habits (I typically only shoot a deer once every 2-3 years while waiting for the right one)... I'm reminded of the affect antlers has on us compared to other game animals. I have a lifetime of hunting rabbits, quail, prairie chickens, ducks, geese, and doves under my belt. I've never once thought to age one or pass one due to it's gender or size (ducks excluded... I grew up knowing that shooting a hen mallard was strictly forbidden). Deer are different for some reason. They have a hold on me that I can't explain and truthfully doesn't make sense when compared to other critters I chase. I honestly find it weird that I can hold different game animal in such different regards.

Congrats on the great buck Native!

 

[Tree Spud]

It just worked for me again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Native ... gun , bow, what?

 

[Tree Spud]

This 3 yr old work for most? Wild, free range native
View attachment 21465

Baker ... you are telling us that is a "free range" deer ?

Its easier to answer your question from my experience in Mexico vs. La because we feed year round down there and supplementation is a much bigger part of their diet. And the answerI believe is yes. Once the deer were firmly established on pellets after several years then we did see the antler growth increasing and peaking later in life. That may be anecdotal as the herd has improved so much from when we stared and we have so many more bucks getting to the older age classes. Nonetheless I believe it true because the overall physical health of the herd has improved so much.

In La. I feed only part of the year to maximize fawn recruitment and during antler growing . There aren't as many years with bucks in the older age classes or dieing of old age.

So you have a controlled operation?

How can you measure results and have that great of a quantitative set of data based on supplemental feeding if the deer are free range?

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks so much everyone. It feels good to get the one I was after. I will post some more pics and put the story in my habitat thread, but here is a quick synopsis of the hunt.

Up until today I had been hunting with my new muzzleloader, but the forecast was for rain all day long, so I felt it might be safer to take the 308 Tikka. Also, because of the heavy rain forecast, I thought the box blind would be a good dry choice.

The morning was kind of uneventful. I saw two young bucks chasing does though the NWSGs, and a decent 8 point came out in one of my plots at around 10:15 AM. I saw other does moving around some, and the rain just kept coming. I generally come out midday and take a break, but with the rain pouring down, I decided to just put in the day. I would have soaked everything walking back and forth to the truck. I caught a nap from about 11:30 to 1:30 and started watching again.

Sometime around 3:00 I got a text from my son, who told me that he was on the way to join me for the evening and help me watch. By that time the rain had become a light mist. We were both glassing the fields, and sometime about an hour before dark, I glanced down toward the low food plot and saw a deer walking the edge broadside to me about 110 yards away. The tops of the tall NWSGs were partially hiding the deer, but I could see it was the one I was after. I could get the scope on him easy, but was afraid to pull the trigger, because I would be shooting through quite a bit of grass. You never know what that could do to a bullet or trajectory path, so I let him keep walking.

I just kept the crosshairs on his chest the best I could as he walked along, and finally he walked past a spot where a patch of big bluestem had partially fallen down and I had about a 2 foot clear opening to get the shot off as he moved through. When the bullet hit, he spun just a little and ran forward and stopped for a few seconds. Once again, the grass was blocking a follow up shot. Then he turned and just disappeared into the field. We were both watching him and could see the tops of the antlers bounce above the grass occasionally. Then we just couldn't see anything.

I told my son to keep watching from the blind while I walked the grass. I went through 2 passes and found nothing. Finally my son joined me, and on the next pass he found the deer right at the point that we thought he may have fallen. On the first two passes I had probably walked within 10 feet of him each time, but they are so hard to see in a grass jungle like we have.

The 150 grain Hornady SST did an incredible job. The lungs were blown completely out, and the exit hole was massive. I don't know how he did it, but even with a hit like that the deer probably ran 65 yards.

Needless to say, I am so very happy. Tomorrow I will get some better pics. Thanks everyone for the support, and its great to share my story with such a bunch of awesome deer hunters.

 

[Native Hunter]

Native ... gun , bow, what?

Spud, it was my 308. I just posted the story in this thread.