Hunter Managed Herds-Private versus Public Lands

[SD51555]

When I started this thread, I was thinking of areas in northern Mn. where doe tags are via lottery and hard to come by. I have hunted those areas and a hunter who gets a doe tag and then decides to pass on a doe could make a difference. I am not referring to areas where everyone has one or multiple doe tags.

On a specific piece of public land that has a strong link to a hunter or party , or on private land passing the doe could work. I have been thinking of another angle on this. Think of future generations that will hunt the property in the next few years. Even make it more personal and think of kids or Grand kids that could be hunting the following fall.

I have never hunted the specific area that Chris or Buck hunt in Mn. area 172, but it might be the type of area where passing a doe after opening weekend would give her a good chance of survival.

I applied for a doe tag last year and didn't get one. I'm going to again this year and I've got higher hopes I can get one. I'd like to use it as a prop when talking to those that hunt our area to have the investment discussion on passing does. I'd like to burn it in front of as many witnesses as possible, or cut it up and put it in a zip lock bag.

Nobody else in our group applied last year, so our ability to get any extra doe tags for soup is likely dead outside of my chances.

 

[wiscwhip]

Whip-there are lots of guys that view the youth tag as an extra doe tag for the party. Not right at all.
Is there an extra fee to apply for a doe tag in the lottery area? I did not think there was one or it did not cost much anyway. for those not familiar with Mn. regulations, if you shoot a doe with lottery doe tag, you do not have another tag to use on a buck. Except for party hunting of course.

Whip- if they apply for a tag, get it , and do not use it, there is one less tag for another hunter to use. The advantage might be similar to a doe tag burning party. doe tags are limited in the lottery areas.

There is no fee for antlerless lottery applications in MN, my point was, most guys that will even go out of there way to remember to apply for a lottery draw permit fully intend on using it. You would be far better off trying to reach the group of guys who would not normally apply for a permit anyway and get them to apply in Zones where they would have absolutely no intention of ever using that tag, maybe not even setting foot in the area it is valid for. Deceptive? Sure! Effective? Likely more so than relying on something like the old wives tale of a tag burning party. Lived guys in WI talking that "game" for years over here.:rolleyes: When it came right down to it there was always an excuse like, "Oh, well I just never bothered to apply since we decide not to shoot does anyway.", or some such nonsense because they were too lazy to send in for a tag. Sure I saw it happen with small groups of 8 or 10 guys a rare handful of times, not enough to rely on it though. Funny thing was, they never seemed to "forget" to send in for a tag the years they were harvesting does?:rolleyes: How convenient for those guys. SD and his group are a case in point, he is the only one who will even have a chance to get a tag, far too small of a difference to even realistically matter. At that rate it would take 10 years to show any real benefits, if ever. A well managed deer herd can show a significant rebound from low population levels in just 2 or 3 years if weather or disease doesn't throw a wrench in the gears. Now, if SD and 3 or 4 of his family and friends were to get those tags, that would be a game changer. If you think this tactic will make a difference, you've got 20+ on this website that can apply for free sometime in August for a lottery tag. They can have everyone in there party apply for one as well. They can tell all their work buddies to do the same. That is how you will make a difference, not by asking the guy who is applying in the first place not to shoot one, there is a reason he is applying to begin with, to harvest a deer with that tag. He may be your ultimate target, but if you want to make a difference NOW, he is not your first target. His education will be a long term project, for now, take the tool away from him to prevent the cycle from continuing.

 

[sandbur]

If Sd has as low of deer numbers as I suspect he has, his passing of a mature doe can make a difference in his immediate area. One more adult doe in an area with 5-10 dpsm is a big difference .
What whip says is true in most cases, but I think we need to try. It is tough to not use a doe tag if you have waited 3-5 years to get one and have not had venison to eat for a few years.
The Hunter Managed herd idea needs to go statewide and not just apply to private landowners.

 

[sandbur]

Just to change the focus of this discussion, How many does will be killed under the new rule where people over 80 something get an automatic doe tag?

I don't mind someone of that age getting a doe tag in most areas, as long as that one person will be hunting and shooting his/her own deer. I suspect there will be more abuse of the tag in Lottery areas than legitimate use. Sad.

 

[wiscwhip]

If Sd has as low of deer numbers as I suspect he has, his passing of a mature doe can make a difference in his immediate area. One more adult doe in an area with 5-10 dpsm is a big difference .
What whip says is true in most cases, but I think we need to try. It is tough to not use a doe tag if you have waited 3-5 years to get one and have not had venison to eat for a few years.
The Hunter Managed herd idea needs to go statewide and not just apply to private landowners.

While I would agree that leaving 1 extra doe on the landscape will obviously be an improvement over harvesting that doe, that is called the 10 to 12 year plan. That single doe could produce twin doe fawns that both survive for 2 or 3 years running, great, but she is just as likely to produce one fawn, potentially a buck that will be picked off by a predator anyway and have a zero net gain for the year. Now get a couple more of SD's family members to get some more of those tags and not use them, that's a difference maker in 2 to 4 years. The law of averages then tilts the scale in favor of the guys who want a herd increase in the short term. You are exactly right bur, that guy who has waited for that tag and went without venison is definitely going to use that tag, regardless of the "education" he is provided. That is exactly what I am trying to convey. As I said, he didn't go out of his way to apply for 3-5 years just eat tag soup because you shoved a PowerPoint Presentation with some pretty graphs in his face. What you need to do is take away the ability of that guy who has waited for a tag to even get that tag initially, or at least make it even harder for him to get one until the herd has had a chance to rebound a bit from the dismal numbers you have now or it will take many more years to get back up into the 18 to 22 DPSM range. Make him wait 4-6 years to get a tag instead of the 3 to 5 years. Just make sure you are using tactics and fighting battles you can use to your advantage to win the "war" in short order, a "blitzkrieg" if you will. No sense dragging it on if it can be dealt with in a shorter time frame. Especially when it is as easy as getting the hunters of MN who don't want to harvest a deer with that lottery tag to check a few boxes on your license form and write in a Zone number for a free tag that won't be used by themselves or anyone else. The issue is getting those guys to actually follow though and not conveniently "forget" to apply for those tags.

In WI we see the same scenario with the youth tags as what you are describing with the tags for the over 80's crowd. The abuse will happen, and there isn't much you can do to curb it, it is pretty hard to prove who actually killed those deer, especially when party hunting is completely legal. It is how we get a kill of 13,000+ antlerless deer in a no antlerless harvest zone.:rolleyes: :mad:

 

[wiscwhip]

One other thing that can help get some guys involved is if you have any programs or clubs who work with the DNR to do habitat improvements on public lands. Keep in mind the hunters have to see these improvements as being beneficial to the deer and deer hunting or they will likely not be interested. No pheasant, quail, or endangered snail improvements, only deer related stuff. It will take a few guys like "us" to maybe put together some resources and contacts for these public land guys to get them involved, but that goes along with sandburs post on the other thread. Compile some of this information and get it printed on some type of handout to be given to hunters at the county fairs, gun shows, deer shows, or other local sportsmen's gatherings. A guy who is willing to volunteer some time to make improvements on public lands is more likely to show trigger restraint as well. Push the angle of it helping future generations and young hunters to be able to see and maybe harvest a deer.

 

[sandbur]

One other thing that can help get some guys involved is if you have any programs or clubs who work with the DNR to do habitat improvements on public lands. Keep in mind the hunters have to see these improvements as being beneficial to the deer and deer hunting or they will likely not be interested. No pheasant, quail, or endangered snail improvements, only deer related stuff. It will take a few guys like "us" to maybe put together some resources and contacts for these public land guys to get them involved, but that goes along with sandburs post on the other thread. Compile some of this information and get it printed on some type of handout to be given to hunters at the county fairs, gun shows, deer shows, or other local sportsmen's gatherings. A guy who is willing to volunteer some time to make improvements on public lands is more likely to show trigger restraint as well. Push the angle of it helping future generations and young hunters to be able to see and maybe harvest a deer.

One of our local clubs bought land, planted trees, and donated the land to the DNR. Now many of the trees are taken out as they are not bird friendly. Much of the land is being managed for grassland.

I did find a link where our local state office no longer had the time or money to assist local landowners with habitat projects or advice.. This might be an opportunity for another group to step in with habitat advice. Sell it as free habitat advice first and then discuss deer numbers as a secondary topic. That has somewhat happened at some of our land tours.

 

[Riggsgwp->]

One of our local clubs bought land, planted trees, and donated the land to the DNR. Now many of the trees are taken out as they are not bird friendly. Much of the land is being managed for grassland

So will this ever happen again? A deer group purchasing and donating land to be managed for birds makes absolutely no sense. Why not buy land with deer habitat and enroll it in programs that never allow future owners(DNR) to screw it up? If that was my dollars and time involved I'd be bitching at MDHA for letting it happen.

 

[wiscwhip]

It would be very frustrating to have worked on something like that and have it ruined by the group assigned to protect it.

 

[sandbur]

So will this ever happen again? A deer group purchasing and donating land to be managed for birds makes absolutely no sense. Why not buy land with deer habitat and enroll it in programs that never allow future owners(DNR) to screw it up? If that was my dollars and time involved I'd be bitching at MDHA for letting it happen.

This land was not purchased by an MDHA chapter, but by a local sportsmen's club. They are somewhat reluctant to buy more land for the DNR after recent management.

 

[Riggsgwp->]

That's too bad that they put their trust in the DNR. If I belonged to any sportsmen club or group that bought land like that I would encourage them to first go through NRCS/FSA.

 

[sandbur]

They just bought another 80 that they are going to retain ownership for themselves. They also own 2 other parcels. One parcel might become a shooting/trap range. From what I can tell, they have not made any land donations in the last years and have retained ownership.

 

[West Branch]

They just bought another 80 that they are going to retain ownership for themselves. They also own 2 other parcels. One parcel might become a shooting/trap range. From what I can tell, they have not made any land donations in the last years and have retained ownership.

Did anyone from the club call up the DNR and tell them they bought more land and say why they won't be giving it to the state? It feels good to be petty sometimes :D