Greenhorn Questions on Tree Seedling Plantings

[Wild Thing]

There was a similar discussion on stakes and tubes (with photos) recently on the Michigan Sportsman Forum:

https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/posts/6679419

In summary: Because the trees grow so fast in the tubes, the stem of the tree is very "spindly" and not strong enough to support the top growth. Because of this I like to use the 4' tubes and get the trees out of the tube and caged as soon as possible. The caged trees can blow around in the wind without harming them and this strengthens the stem much sooner. I buy 10' sections of EMT conduit and cut them in half so my stakes are 5'. I sink them into the ground to just below the top of the tube so that when the tree comes out of the tube it is not damaged by blowing around on a sharp stake. I place the solid portion of the tube at the bottom so I can spray around the tubes without spraying my trees inside the tube. I do pull the tubes each year and clean out the leaves/debris and start pruning off the lower branches as soon as possible. Even after caging the trees I continue to prune the lower branches until the lowest branches are at least 4'-5' above ground. I have experienced very close to 100% survival over the years - actually, I am having difficulty thinking if I have ever even lost 1 tree. My biggest nemesis recently has been skunks digging up freshly planted seedlings from the bottom of the tubes. Many of my trees have been planted around food plots or other areas where they do get some fertilizer when I am fertilizing the food plots. I have also on occasion used a little liquid "Miracle Grow" down the tubes but I haven't really been good about fertilizing. I think the biggest help is spraying the weed competition around the base of the trees.

It is a lot of work and expense tubing and caging trees but if you want good results you have to pay the price. We had exactly 1 oak tree on our entire 160 acres when we purchased the property. I have since planted hundreds of them very successfully once I learned that they had to be tubed and caged. My wife boo-pooed me when I first started - she said "I don't know why you are wasting your time trying to grow oak trees - you will be dead and gone before any of them ever grow an acorn". I said - "Where would we be if Johnny Appleseed had that kind of attitude?"....and I am really pleased to say that I proved her wrong as I have been growing acorns the past 3 years on trees which I planted as seedlings.

 

[Redonthehead]

I'm a BIG fan of 5' tubes with PVC stakes. Have put out 700 over the last five years and just removed and re-deployed about 75 of them last weekend - taking them off ~2" diameter trees but putting a ring of old field fencing around them to keep the bucks off. Mostly oaks but its amazing was a "dunstan" chestnut seed will do when you direct seed it with a tube.

 

[blueKYstream]

For bare root trees, backfilling with the native clay like you are doing is the best approach. You don't create the differential infiltration and since they are bare root anyway, it is not like you would be disturbing the root ball any more than it already is.

I don't know about larger rocks. I've use quarry stone. They call it different things in different places. Here they call the stuff I'm using 56. I don't know if it is because they absorb heat or what but mice don't nest in them. Each stone is roughly the size of my thumb. I have heard that in some areas the heat may be an issue for the tree, but I have not found that to be the case on my area. I like them because they are permanent and don't need to be frequently replaced like organic much that breaks down.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks Jack! I was worried about larger rocks creating homes for rodents, but after hearing your thoughts I think I should be fine. I can maybe just keep them away from the trunk a bit.

 

[blueKYstream]

There was a similar discussion on stakes and tubes (with photos) recently on the Michigan Sportsman Forum:

https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/posts/6679419

In summary: Because the trees grow so fast in the tubes, the stem of the tree is very "spindly" and not strong enough to support the top growth. Because of this I like to use the 4' tubes and get the trees out of the tube and caged as soon as possible. The caged trees can blow around in the wind without harming them and this strengthens the stem much sooner. I buy 10' sections of EMT conduit and cut them in half so my stakes are 5'. I sink them into the ground to just below the top of the tube so that when the tree comes out of the tube it is not damaged by blowing around on a sharp stake. I place the solid portion of the tube at the bottom so I can spray around the tubes without spraying my trees inside the tube. I do pull the tubes each year and clean out the leaves/debris and start pruning off the lower branches as soon as possible. Even after caging the trees I continue to prune the lower branches until the lowest branches are at least 4'-5' above ground. I have experienced very close to 100% survival over the years - actually, I am having difficulty thinking if I have ever even lost 1 tree. My biggest nemesis recently has been skunks digging up freshly planted seedlings from the bottom of the tubes. Many of my trees have been planted around food plots or other areas where they do get some fertilizer when I am fertilizing the food plots. I have also on occasion used a little liquid "Miracle Grow" down the tubes but I haven't really been good about fertilizing. I think the biggest help is spraying the weed competition around the base of the trees.

It is a lot of work and expense tubing and caging trees but if you want good results you have to pay the price. We had exactly 1 oak tree on our entire 160 acres when we purchased the property. I have since planted hundreds of them very successfully once I learned that they had to be tubed and caged. My wife boo-pooed me when I first started - she said "I don't know why you are wasting your time trying to grow oak trees - you will be dead and gone before any of them ever grow an acorn". I said - "Where would we be if Johnny Appleseed had that kind of attitude?"....and I am really pleased to say that I proved her wrong as I have been growing acorns the past 3 years on trees which I planted as seedlings.

It sounds like I've went with just about everything you use (except I bought some weed mats). I'm using the EMT conduit and tubes (5' instead of your 4'). It's encouraging to me that you've had such great success with your system. Hopefully, I can come somewhere close to that as well. How did you end up finding out it was the skunks raiding your tree tubes? Also, have you used miracle grow on newly planted trees or when they are a year or more older? I've read good and bad about fertilizing new trees, so I was going to err on the side of caution and let them go for unfertilized the first year.

That's funny about your wife. Mine encouraged me to do it, so she had an excuse to go spend more money than she already does.

 

[blueKYstream]

I'm a BIG fan of 5' tubes with PVC stakes. Have put out 700 over the last five years and just removed and re-deployed about 75 of them last weekend - taking them off ~2" diameter trees but putting a ring of old field fencing around them to keep the bucks off. Mostly oaks but its amazing was a "dunstan" chestnut seed will do when you direct seed it with a tube.

How come you didn't leave the tube on to keep the bucks away instead of the fencing and how old are they out of curiosity? Did you just want to reuse the tubes with other seedlings?

 

[Wild Thing]

It sounds like I've went with just about everything you use (except I bought some weed mats). I'm using the EMT conduit and tubes (5' instead of your 4'). It's encouraging to me that you've had such great success with your system. Hopefully, I can come somewhere close to that as well. How did you end up finding out it was the skunks raiding your tree tubes? Also, have you used miracle grow on newly planted trees or when they are a year or more older? I've read good and bad about fertilizing new trees, so I was going to err on the side of caution and let them go for unfertilized the first year.

That's funny about your wife. Mine encouraged me to do it, so she had an excuse to go spend more money than she already does.

The first 20+ years we owned the property I saw exactly 2 skunks and I shot both of them. Then, the last 2-3 years I started getting photos of skunks on my scouting cameras. About the same time I started reading in the paper that skunks had caused thousands of dollars worth of damage by digging up the lawn in the cemetery in town. I had not yet experienced the digging on our lawn although we did later on last summer. I had never had any of my seedlings dug up before either but they started digging up both my oak seedlings which I had grown from acorns and also the Norway Spruce plugs which we had planted by using an auger to drill the holes. I think when they saw the fresh dirt they thought some other critter may have buried a "goodie" there. Anyway, when I set out some traps - skunks is what I got.

Dug up oak seedling:



Dug up Norway Spruce Plug:



The culprits:

 

[blueKYstream]

The first 20+ years we owned the property I saw exactly 2 skunks and I shot both of them. Then, the last 2-3 years I started getting photos of skunks on my scouting cameras. About the same time I started reading in the paper that skunks had caused thousands of dollars worth of damage by digging up the lawn in the cemetery in town. I had not yet experienced the digging on our lawn although we did later on last summer. I had never had any of my seedlings dug up before either but they started digging up both my oak seedlings which I had grown from acorns and also the Norway Spruce plugs which we had planted by using an auger to drill the holes. I think when they saw the fresh dirt they thought some other critter may have buried a "goodie" there. Anyway, when I set out some traps - skunks is what I got.

Dug up oak seedling:

View attachment 17445

Dug up Norway Spruce Plug:

View attachment 17446View attachment 17447

The culprits:

View attachment 17448

I'd be terminating those suckers as well. Glad you got them and hopefully it resolves your problems. I started trapping for the first time last winter. I got 10 skunks, 35 raccoons, 4 or 5 coyotes, 2 fox, and 15 possum. I didn't have time to do it again this year. Sometimes I feel like a kid with A.D.D. hopping from one thing to another with property improvement (logging, hunting, trapping, pond management, and now tree planting). It's all fun though!

I put a camera up over several of the traps. One trail cam in particular (pictured in the 3rd & 4th picture below) was over a carcass (legal in KY but I learned I won't be doing it again due to catching unwanted animals). There was some pretty cool footage there: Trail Cam Footage

 

[Wild Thing]

I'd be terminating those suckers as well. Glad you got them and hopefully it resolves your problems. I started trapping for the first time last winter. I got 10 skunks, 35 raccoons, 4 or 5 coyotes, 2 fox, and 15 possum. I didn't have time to do it again this year. Sometimes I feel like a kid with A.D.D. hopping from one thing to another with property improvement (logging, hunting, trapping, pond management, and now tree planting). It's all fun though!

Wow! "You did well Pilgrim"!! That is one heckuva a catch even for experienced trappers - nice going!

 

[blueKYstream]

I’m heading to the farm now with 50 chestnut trees. It’s been raining for days but will stop this afternoon and then rain a bit more tomorrow and possibly Monday. I’m not sure if it’s better to wait until things dry up or if this rain will hurt more than it helps. I guess I’m going to plant them, no amending, and try to have a slight mound above each rootball. They’ll be planted on a slope of varying degrees so that should help some. Crossing my fingers!

 

[scott44]

I’m heading to the farm now with 50 chestnut trees. It’s been raining for days but will stop this afternoon and then rain a bit more tomorrow and possibly Monday. I’m not sure if it’s better to wait until things dry up or if this rain will hurt more than it helps. I guess I’m going to plant them, no amending, and try to have a slight mound above each rootball. They’ll be planted on a slope of varying degrees so that should help some. Crossing my fingers!

Good luck with your planting!

 

[blueKYstream]

Well, I got about 18 or so Chinese Chestnuts planted, tubed and with a weed mat today. It was sloppy out with all the rain this week (and today). I'm going back in the morning to hopefully finish up the bunch. The mistake I made planting pears was not bringing water. The mistake I made today was not bringing a pair of pruners to prune the roots. I felt like I needed an excavator to dig up some of the rocks. Larger roots, bigger holes and more rocks!

I did get see about 15 turkeys, 4 deer and a rabbit watching us plant. The areas I'm planting were where I cut a bunch of trees along a field edge (visible in the first couple pictures but not so much on the last 3). The deer were in it after about an hour. The rabbits appear to be enjoying it as well.

 

[blueKYstream]

Day 2 went a little smoother. The rain stopped and it turned out to be a nice day. Conditions were still muddy (and I got the ATV stuck in manure 3-4 foot deep). However, we probably got about 22 chestnut trees planted, tubed and with weed mats. I forgot to put the bird nets on all the tubes. I probably need to go back and do that. I have to go back on Monday evening anyways to get the last 10 planted. I dipped some hay in water to get it damp then stuck it in the bag with the seedlings to keep the roots moist. I put the seedlings in the barn. The weather will be lows in the mid 30's and highs in the mid 50's the next couple days. How long can you reasonably expect seedlings to last out of dirt if the roots are kept damp?

 

[Wild Thing]

Day 2 went a little smoother. The rain stopped and it turned out to be a nice day. Conditions were still muddy (and I got the ATV stuck in manure 3-4 foot deep). However, we probably got about 22 chestnut trees planted, tubed and with weed mats. I forgot to put the bird nets on all the tubes. I probably need to go back and do that. I have to go back on Monday evening anyways to get the last 10 planted. I dipped some hay in water to get it damp then stuck it in the bag with the seedlings to keep the roots moist. I put the seedlings in the barn. The weather will be lows in the mid 30's and highs in the mid 50's the next couple days. How long can you reasonably expect seedlings to last out of dirt if the roots are kept damp?

I've kept bare root apple trees in 33 gal trash cans filled with water for up to 10 days and never had less than 100% survival.



Happy to hear that the weather held out for you blueKYstream. I took this photo yesterday morning and we probably got another 5-6" of snow afterwards. It will be a while yet before I think about planting anything...

 

[blueKYstream]

I've kept bare root apple trees in 33 gal trash cans filled with water for up to 10 days and never had less than 100% survival.

View attachment 17584

Happy to hear that the weather held out for you blueKYstream. I took this photo yesterday morning and we probably got another 5-6" of snow afterwards. It will be a while yet before I think about planting anything...

View attachment 17585

Wow, I'm glad we didn't get snow instead of all this rain. I'm so ready for warm weather and spring blooms! I'm glad to hear about apple trees surviving in water for so long. I know I've seen several places to not soak roots for more than a few hours. I'm not sure if they drown, bacteria starts rotting the roots, or most/all trees do in fact survive. It's encouraging though. I'll bet the trees I have should do fine in damp hay in a shady, cool barn if submerging them works for you. Thanks!

 

[Wild Thing]

Wow, I'm glad we didn't get snow instead of all this rain. I'm so ready for warm weather and spring blooms! I'm glad to hear about apple trees surviving in water for so long. I know I've seen several places to not soak roots for more than a few hours. I'm not sure if they drown, bacteria starts rotting the roots, or most/all trees do in fact survive. It's encouraging though. I'll bet the trees I have should do fine in damp hay in a shady, cool barn if submerging them works for you. Thanks!

I buy my apple trees from a distributor in Wisconsin who buys a truckload of them from Minnesota. When I get to the distributors' place to pick them up, he has the bare roots submerged in his pond. He has hundreds of trees surrounding the pond - all with their roots fully submerged in water. I figured if he does it - it must be OK so I have been doing it very successfully for years. Years ago before that, I used to keep the bare root trees submerged in water in my swamp and that worked well too. I used to keep the barrels in the barn also as it is cooler in there with the doors closed - just depends upon how long I expect to have to keep them moist.

Apple trees, in particular, do not like "wet feet" so I try not to plant them in soil that is wet much of the time, but that doesn't stop me from ensuring that they have a good start in moist soil. I water them thoroughly the first couple of days after planting even after keeping them submerged before planting:

 

[blueKYstream]

I buy my apple trees from a distributor in Wisconsin who buys a truckload of them from Minnesota. When I get to the distributors' place to pick them up, he has the bare roots submerged in his pond. He has hundreds of trees surrounding the pond - all with their roots fully submerged in water. I figured if he does it - it must be OK so I have been doing it very successfully for years. Years ago before that, I used to keep the bare root trees submerged in water in my swamp and that worked well too. I used to keep the barrels in the barn also as it is cooler in there with the doors closed - just depends upon how long I expect to have to keep them moist.

Apple trees, in particular, do not like "wet feet" so I try not to plant them in soil that is wet much of the time, but that doesn't stop me from ensuring that they have a good start in moist soil. I water them thoroughly the first couple of days after planting even after keeping them submerged before planting:

View attachment 17587View attachment 17588View attachment 17589

It's amazing how much they can go through even though they look so vulnerable when they're dormant. Those are some great pictures too! It looks like the soil line is slightly below the surrounding soil. Does that pose any problems or is that right where you'd want to be?

 

[Wild Thing]

It's amazing how much they can go through even though they look so vulnerable when they're dormant. Those are some great pictures too! It looks like the soil line is slightly below the surrounding soil. Does that pose any problems or is that right where you'd want to be?

That is how I plant them BKS. I plant them below soil level and sort of "berm" them up. My goal is for each tree to be able to hold 5 gallons of water as that is how I water them the first year or two. I catch rain water from the barn roof and usually load up the 5 gallon pails full of water and go to the orchard or other areas of the farm and give each tree a 5 gallon "drink". If it is during a dry spell and I'm going to be away for a while I may go back and give them another 5 gallons after they have soaked up the first pail full. I also arrange the soil so that rain runoff will actually funnel into the basin if we happen to get heavy rain.

After a few years when the roots and trunk of the tree have grown, they probably don't hold 5 gallons anymore but by then I usually don't water them much if at all anyway.

Here are some more photos which may give you an idea of what I like to see:

 

[blueKYstream]

I see what you're saying with the basin. It seems to have worked well for you too! That's a very nice looking orchard! Seems you have good spacing in your orchard for plenty of future growth. I forgot to add that I'm generally spacing my at about 12 paces or close to 36 feet for the chestnuts (some are further and some might be 30 ft...it just depends on the areas I'm planting)

 

[Wild Thing]

Thanks. I plant mostly standard sized trees and for many years I planted them 20' between trees and 20' between rows. There has always been plenty of space between them so I started planting them a little closer at 15' spacing. Some of those pictured were planted to replace 4 cherrie trees that we lost which had also been planted on 20' spacing. These are semi-dwarfs and I planted them on 10' spacing. School is still out on how that works out but I think they will be fine. Espaliered tree orchards are planting dwarfs on 8' spacing:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-fruit-trees&usg=AOvVaw0X90KyNyl-pvINuAOez3M9

I've also planted a lot of oak trees and I shoot for a 30' spacing on those hoping for larger crowns some day. We also shoot for 30' spacing on our Sugar Maples in our sugarbush.

 

[blueKYstream]

I planted the final 10 chinese chestnut trees on Monday after work. I thought I was going to have some help, but there was an apparent communication issue. No problem, I went and did some work by myself. I wanted to see if I could get a few of them going on the cattle portion of the farm. I have an infestation of what I later found was black locust. I cut a couple areas and sprayed the stumps. I then planted the trees in 2 spots.


This spot is more in the open where cattle can feed around it and a heavy deer presence. I put a cut up hickory tree around them (not pictured) to discourage cattle using it as a side scratcher. It may not work, but I'm interested to see how it does.


The lake pictured is fenced off from cattle, but they still get in at times. There was a lot of black locust that you see cut. I hope that also keeps some of the animals away from the tubes. We'll see. I really like this area, so it's worth the risk to me. I finished up right at dark.


I was very happy to get 10 planted today by myself after work while also cutting trash trees. The icing on the cake was getting this fatty who was digging tunnels underneath the house. The guys were giving me a hard time for leaving the safety on the traps the first time.