Greenhorn Questions on Tree Seedling Plantings

[Needmorebrush82]

What zone are you in? There's years in zone 6 where we can hit 100 quite a bit and other years where it might only hit it once or twice (although humidity makes it feel like it more often hits 100). Not sure if tubes are just not as suitable for the far south.

I'm in zone 7a Central Oklahoma and the tubes are just about the only way to keep a tree alive and get good growth. Some years like the last 100 was rare, sometimes it's months straight of 100+ with no rain. I have a 300 gallon tank I water new trees with once a week. No sense in planting it if I can't take care of it! The beauty of it is most trees will be up and out of the tree tube within the year so the greenhouse cooking the leaves threat is over quickly and the benefits of greenhouse moisture propel our growth. I know most guys are against fertilizing young trees and that's their opinion. Personally I am impatient as hell and I will lightly fertilize them with a 50/50 mix of chicken poop and triple 13. I skipped last year to see if it made a difference and I was thoroughly depressed by the lack of growth. I don't go wild with it because I have forced them to grow so fast they wont hold themselves up on older trees and obviously that makes no sense.

 

[blueKYstream]

I read a lot of different opinions there and perhaps the tubes' effectiveness varies by location, soil, animal population etc. I'm an auditor, so I like to work with numbers. It sounds like there are pros/cons to each way. I'm not sure what the survival rate would be without tubes and it probably varies by the factors above. I thought I read a study that was around 30% survival rate w/o tubes. It may be as low as 0% depending on species though. So 0-30% is widely variable and quite low which I assume is why most here protect their trees.

Hypothetically, if I'm going to pay $500-$600 for tubes and stakes to protect 100 trees as well as the time to erect those, I would expect the survival rates to increase quite a bit. I'd expect them to go from 0%-30% to at least 65%-70% or more. Is 70% survival rate with tubes a reasonable expectation? I read that weed mats in a study increased growth rates by suppressing weeds and possibly retaining soil moisture better (I bought the non permeable kind that supposedly holds water better but I'm sure they have their cons too compared to landscape fabric). In theory, I thought they might create a cover-free area to deter mice too but I wasn't counting on that when I bought them. Personally, I didn't buy these to increase survivability but to reduce spraying. Perhaps that's an incorrect assumption, but I don't know. If we're talking about mice and weather contributing to 30% or less mortality, that's acceptable risk to me (maybe not for your purposes though). Maybe the minimal cost of wire mesh will decrease girdling via mice. If that brings survival rates up any from roughly 70%, it's probably worth considering.

Lastly, let's consider cages. The cost for caging the same 100 trees in this example would increase substantially for cages. If you get 10 cages from 150' for example sake at $100ish dollars per roll, that's about $1000 alone in cages. That's almost double the cost of tubes not to mention stakes. Also, it would be more time to erect cages. I would expect survival rates to be a minimum of 90% in this scenario given the cost. Is 90% a reliable survival rate from your experiences? If I 1) only wanted to plant 10-20 trees that I really want to see succeed 2) had a reasonable number of fruit trees, or 3) I was planting an orchard that relied on future production, I think cages are a serious consideration and the price is worth the extra expense. If you are planting more trees than that, I personally could live with the increased mortality associated with tubes for the cost and planting time savings (70% survival with tubes vs 90% with cages).

I don't have the experience to gauge whether those survival rates are accurate and I'm sure it will differ for everyone, but on average is that a reasonable survival rate for each option? For me and with those expectations, I think tubes would be the right fit for most of my trees (although I hope to put a few pear trees in cages). For me, if survival rates are within that realm with tubes, then the issues with tubes are negligible. If the mice and heat increase mortality beyond that acceptable tolerance of roughly 70%, then cages are likely worth the additional expense.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm gonna try a few tubes up off ground a bit with the draft thing. I have a feeling mice will girdle the tree in my area same as a unprotected tree but I like to experiment with things.

The recent posts about heat build up with a buried tube makes me think some of you should experiment with a few tubes placed upside-down to have vent holes on bottom?

That makes no sense to me. If heat buildup is the issue, creating an updraft will dry out the leaves making them even more vulnerable to heat. Instead, I would increase the amount of venting for the entire height of the tube. This allows more heat to escape without creating an updraft.

 

[Needmorebrush82]

That makes no sense to me. If heat buildup is the issue, creating an updraft will dry out the leaves making them even more vulnerable to heat. Instead, I would increase the amount of venting for the entire height of the tube. This allows more heat to escape without creating an updraft.

Jack I think folks are misreading what I said. I don't seal my miracle tubes off by burying the ends. I just let them rest against the ground and let the rolled edge provide the seal. If I seal them the tree is gone because the mice will eat it. I by no means have a tube floating inches off of the ground as that would cook a tree. I have had 500 trees eaten in one winter from sealing tubes off. I would love to be able to seal them off to enhance the greenhouse, but I had to adapt from a survival standpoint and it works. I have pushed pears 8ft in a season even though most say not to tube them. Most say not to fertilize young trees but growing an 8ft sawtooth in its first season is pretty fun. I have no issues with playing by the rules but why not adapt and maximize for your location. Most of us grow a lot of our own stuff including you and I believe we are all innovators. For instance this year I upsized Burr oaks at 4 weeks instead of the standard 12 weeks. The control Burr's are one third the size of the upsized trees. Is it just the Burr Oak that provides this result? I really don't know the answer because this is the first time I have tried it. My point is it may not make sense or work in your area but feeding the mice the 500 trees I grow a year is not something I am willing to do so I tried not burying the bottom of a miracle tube and tada solved! I don't know if it's the draft or just the fact that the tube rests firmly on the ground without being buried but my trees live and that's all I care about. I planted and tubed another 100 that way today. If it was going to kill someone's trees I for sure wouldn't share it, we are tree guys!

 

[yoderjac]

Needmorebrush,

I think that clarification will help folk. As I said, tubes can help or hurt and it really depends on the local conditions. I just wanted to make sure that Northbound and others understood that raising a tube can cause a chimney effect drying out the tree as the tube heats. I do understand that tubes get too hot in some places and I think more ventilation can help, but one needs to ensure they don't make things worse by creating a chimney.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Northbound]

Needmorebrush,

I think that clarification will help folk. As I said, tubes can help or hurt and it really depends on the local conditions. I just wanted to make sure that Northbound and others understood that raising a tube can cause a chimney effect drying out the tree as the tube heats. I do understand that tubes get too hot in some places and I think more ventilation can help, but one needs to ensure they don't make things worse by creating a chimney.

Thanks,

Jack

Yeah I was thinking it was intended as some guys where holding them up say a inch or so to get the draft effect. Seemed odd but I'm always open to experiment with other people's techniques

 

[cavey]

How does the pvc conduit hold up to sub zero temps and getting bumped? I would think it would snap pretty easy?

and ...

Jack how does lifting the tubes up a few inches in winter to harden the trunks come into play with the chimney effect you are talking about? is it only a summer thing/concern? I buried in the tubes I used this year and used window screen. I didnt lift the tubes for winter (which i had heard was a good practice (trunk hardening)) and am just counting on the screen protecting the trees. I had good growth going into the fall and just intended to pull the tubes this spring to clear out any nests or dead leaves with fingers crossed that the mice didnt climb the screen and nest or girdle the trees. Originally i was going to lift them 3-4 inches for winter just didnt have time.

 

[yoderjac]

How does the pvc conduit hold up to sub zero temps and getting bumped? I would think it would snap pretty easy?

and ...

Jack how does lifting the tubes up a few inches in winter to harden the trunks come into play with the chimney effect you are talking about? is it only a summer thing/concern? I buried in the tubes I used this year and used window screen. I didnt lift the tubes for winter (which i had heard was a good practice (trunk hardening)) and am just counting on the screen protecting the trees. I had good growth going into the fall and just intended to pull the tubes this spring to clear out any nests or dead leaves with fingers crossed that the mice didnt climb the screen and nest or girdle the trees. Originally i was going to lift them 3-4 inches for winter just didnt have time.

We don't get enough sub-zero temps here for me to comment on the PVC. As for the tubes, have not lifted any for trunk hardening. In the old days when tubes were unvented and smaller diameter when I first used them, I found that trees that did not get enough sun would get a fungus of some kind around the trunk. This was generally during wet humid conditions. Our first attempt was to raise the tubs a few inches on the stake to allow the lower trunk to dry out more. We found that when the sun did hit the tube in the summer, it heated the air inside the tube. This heating caused the warm air in the tube to rise, sucking more air in the raised bottom which would heat. This "chimney effect" cause a constant updraft in the tube. It tended to dry out the leaves and kill the tree.

I doubt any of this is an issue once trees are substantially growing out of the top of the tube. I've never had to take any action to "harden" the trunk. I'm not even sure what that means in this context. Perhaps that is something more unique to the north. To me, "hardening" or "hardening off" occurs when tree goes from green herbaceous growth to a woody state. This happens over time. Here, we need to be careful not to fertilize too long into the summer. If we do, the tree can grow in that herbaceous state too long and be damaged by the cold weather before it properly "hardens".

I've never had to take any action to cause a trunk to "harden". Perhaps if you are in some environment where the tube "tricks" the tree (like fertilizer) into producing herbaceous growth too long into the fall there could be an issue. As I say, I've never raised a tube for that purpose and never had an issue. Perhaps other can comment on the technique and purpose of raising a tube.

I will say the sun warming the air inside the tube can cause an updraft if there is a gap between the ground and the tube. How much impact this has on the tree may be dependent on the tree and location.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[cavey]

I haven't been in the habit of tubing trees so its all kind of new, I do stake and take steps to protect from browse and mice and typically do not ever need to fertilize newly planted trees. I had just heard that due to the rapid growth rate you can end up with a taller spindlier tree coming out of a tube and that lifting the tube in the fall helps to set it into that stronger woody state (hardening the trunk) - what im assuming is what you may have eluded too as

tube "tricks" the tree (like fertilizer) into producing herbaceous growth too long into the fall there could be an issue

Im guessing thats what/why Ive seen it being suggested?.. I could see where going into the late fall early winter up here with a prolonged growing time-greenhouse effect may leave the tree in that softer growth state longer than it should - kind of an unnatural state. I was just told that when you do pull the tubes and stakes to let the tree stand on its own they could be prone to leaning or tipping due to weaker trunks (more rapid growth and being unnaturally supported in the tubes not allowed to have that natural toughening up from the wind and ect...). Granted stating would have some of that same effect but I have seen that before when others have pulled their tubes, especially tall ones; the trees pretty much just leaned over. I went to tubes with the Dunstan's because I am pushing them a bit up here in a zone 4b. Also I think lifting them may prevent the mice from nesting in them... just was looking for opinions - never hurts to ask.

 

[yoderjac]

I haven't been in the habit of tubing trees so its all kind of new, I do stake and take steps to protect from browse and mice and typically do not ever need to fertilize newly planted trees. I had just heard that due to the rapid growth rate you can end up with a taller spindlier tree coming out of a tube and that lifting the tube in the fall helps to set it into that stronger woody state (hardening the trunk) - what im assuming is what you may have eluded too as Im guessing thats what/why Ive seen it being suggested?.. I could see where going into the late fall early winter up here with a prolonged growing time-greenhouse effect may leave the tree in that softer growth state longer than it should - kind of an unnatural state. I was just told that when you do pull the tubes and stakes to let the tree stand on its own they could be prone to leaning or tipping due to weaker trunks (more rapid growth and being unnaturally supported in the tubes not allowed to have that natural toughening up from the wind and ect...). Granted stating would have some of that same effect but I have seen that before when others have pulled their tubes, especially tall ones; the trees pretty much just leaned over. I went to tubes with the Dunstan's because I am pushing them a bit up here in a zone 4b. Also I think lifting them may prevent the mice from nesting in them... just was looking for opinions - never hurts to ask.

I personally would suggest that the lowest risk way to reduce the greenhouse effect of the tubes is simply to increase the ventilation through the entire length of the tube rather than lifting it and risking the chimney effect.

As for weak trunks, I think the real concern is brittle trunks. If the trunk does not get sufficient stress (wind) as it grows it can become more brittle and in a high wind event snap. The solution to this is loose staking. I like to use PVC stakes and only stake the tube. This tube actually has a higher wind profile than the young tree. If you don't stake a tube it will likely blow over the in the wind and damage a young tree. The PVC stake allows the tube to move in higher winds and the tree moves and flexes with it. Once my Dunstans are well out of the tube and the branches and leaves above the tube have a greater wind profile than the tube itself, I simply snip the cable ties holding the tube to the stake. With the tube free of the stake, the tree trunk will get even more flex like a normal tree. I won't be removing my tubs until the trunk is close to splitting them. This deters deer from rubbing them until they can handle it. If you only trees are planted deer may still mess with them, but in my case they have plenty of native trees to rub and they don't like the plastic.

As for mice and other rodents, what works for me is using quarry stone over landscaping material as mulch. I have not had any issues since I started doing this instead of organic mulch.

I would think there are varieties of Chinese chestnuts that are rated for colder hardiness zones than Dunstans that you might want to consider for future planting. I'm not up north so I don't have specific suggestions. Dunstans have good wildlife characteristics but are not head and shoulders above others. That would let you use cages instead of tubes. With cages, you can use the rope method that I use with my apples that leave the tree free to move in the wind but limit the movement.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

I ran into a friend today that has been planting some trees. He said he has sprayed the tree trunks with white latex paint which has helped prevent the mice and rabbits from girdling the tree as well as sun scald. Do you guys recommend doing the aluminum screen (or is it wire mesh?) instead of using white latex paint?

 

[yoderjac]

I ran into a friend today that has been planting some trees. He said he has sprayed the tree trunks with white latex paint which has helped prevent the mice and rabbits from girdling the tree as well as sun scald. Do you guys recommend doing the aluminum screen (or is it wire mesh?) instead of using white latex paint?

It probably depends on how bad the problem is for you. I don't use either. Most folks on here use screen. When I've direct seeded nut trees, they do need protection from squirrels and I used screen for that. I'm sure it is effective against rodent damage as well. I can't speak to the paint although I have seen it used. I don't know how effective it is at either task.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

I hope you all don't mind if I post a few pictures on the progress. I bought "just six" pear trees from Tractor Supply. I have a bigger order of persimmon and chestnuts coming. I wanted to get an idea of how many to expect to plant in a given day. I'm glad I don't have to deal with cages with hardwoods. They are quite time consuming (in both work and the number of trips with an ATV), but I sure hope they help the pears I planted. I hate to admit it, but I was plum wore out after only 6. The root systems weren't very extensive with them, so we'll see how they do. If you see something I could improve, I'd love to hear it. I used tobacco sticks to stake the cage. I have a ton of them that I can go to if they rot after a year.



Unfortunately, I found this guy yesterday as well. I saw him (alive) during the season twice. I passed him up hoping he could make it another year. Looks like that won't happen, but I'm glad I at least know he's dead and found his remains.

 

[Needmorebrush82]

I hope you all don't mind if I post a few pictures on the progress. I bought "just six" pear trees from Tractor Supply. I have a bigger order of persimmon and chestnuts coming. I wanted to get an idea of how many to expect to plant in a given day. I'm glad I don't have to deal with cages with hardwoods. They are quite time consuming (in both work and the number of trips with an ATV), but I sure hope they help the pears I planted. I hate to admit it, but I was plum wore out after only 6. The root systems weren't very extensive with them, so we'll see how they do. If you see something I could improve, I'd love to hear it. I used tobacco sticks to stake the cage. I have a ton of them that I can go to if they rot after a year.

View attachment 17354

Unfortunately, I found this guy yesterday as well. I saw him (alive) during the season twice. I passed him up hoping he could make it another year. Looks like that won't happen, but I'm glad I at least know he's dead and found his remains.

View attachment 17355

You did great from what I can see. On the big box trees from places like tractor supply I always try to pay attention to where the actual soil line is on the tree and not where the soil is in the pot at the time of planting. Most of those trees are blown over daily and tend to lose soil leaving the root collar exposed. Your other trees should not be that big of a chore, they are bare root correct? A good dibble bar like a kbc planting bar will allow you to plant in rocky and clay soil at a decent pace if that's the case. With my 5yr old bringing the tree to me we could knock one out every couple of minutes just having fun because a 5yr old doesn't know the word hurry up and it was a learning experience! You will do much better than that I can assure you by yourself! If you have an adult helper you will be flat out amazed at how many you can plant in one day once you get in the swing of things. My wife keeps the four wheeler and trailer beside me and hands me everything in order dibble bar, tree, tree stake, and tube and I promise it will take you longer to get to the next planting site then it takes to plant and tube one! You did great and you will get better and faster with every tree. If those pear trees are low in the roots department, which all of those are mulch it or kiss it bye once it gets hot unless you can water it several times a week when it gets hot. I tried once a week without mulch and we ended up with $12 dead sticks. Mulch them and they can make it a week without water, huge difference! Welcome to the club of tree people, your friends will think you're nuts and you will think you are nuts next year when you order 1000+ seedlings because you are comfortable with it. As far as getting tired take snacks and lots to drink. I know that's not the man thing to do but I can promise none of us dibble bar 400-500 trees a day without water and food and plus who cares what anyone thinks, this is your hobby. Good luck avoiding the tree addiction!

 

[blueKYstream]

You did great from what I can see. On the big box trees from places like tractor supply I always try to pay attention to where the actual soil line is on the tree and not where the soil is in the pot at the time of planting. Most of those trees are blown over daily and tend to lose soil leaving the root collar exposed. Your other trees should not be that big of a chore, they are bare root correct? A good dibble bar like a kbc planting bar will allow you to plant in rocky and clay soil at a decent pace if that's the case. With my 5yr old bringing the tree to me we could knock one out every couple of minutes just having fun because a 5yr old doesn't know the word hurry up and it was a learning experience! You will do much better than that I can assure you by yourself! If you have an adult helper you will be flat out amazed at how many you can plant in one day once you get in the swing of things. My wife keeps the four wheeler and trailer beside me and hands me everything in order dibble bar, tree, tree stake, and tube and I promise it will take you longer to get to the next planting site then it takes to plant and tube one! You did great and you will get better and faster with every tree. If those pear trees are low in the roots department, which all of those are mulch it or kiss it bye once it gets hot unless you can water it several times a week when it gets hot. I tried once a week without mulch and we ended up with $12 dead sticks. Mulch them and they can make it a week without water, huge difference! Welcome to the club of tree people, your friends will think you're nuts and you will think you are nuts next year when you order 1000+ seedlings because you are comfortable with it. As far as getting tired take snacks and lots to drink. I know that's not the man thing to do but I can promise none of us dibble bar 400-500 trees a day without water and food and plus who cares what anyone thinks, this is your hobby. Good luck avoiding the tree addiction!

They had the trees in a container, but these were basically bare root trees with the roots in sawdust inside a plastic bag. It was tough to see the soil line on them after soaking the roots. They had a few small fibrous roots and pruned woody roots. I saw where one had put out some fresh roots, but the others had no new visible growth. Hopefully they were planted to the proper depth. I probably dug more of a hole than needed with these particular trees, but I figured since there weren't many, it might give the roots the best chance by breaking up the soil in a 1.5 to 2 ft wide circle. I planted four before I realized I had 2' x 2' weed mats, which are essentially black trash bags. I hadn't seen a whole lot written about them. Do those weed mats need rocks or pebbles on top to keep the soil from getting too hot? I'll probably go back and put some on the other 4 next trip.

Yes the others seedlings on order are bare roots. I don't have a dibble bar. I used a shovel. I have a 2" drill auger. I wasn't sure if that would work at the time I ordered the trees. Actually, that's another question...I'm sure it depends on the size of the roots on the trees, but will that work or does the hole need to be much bigger? One of my problems is that I was asked by my dad not to plant them in fields in order to preserve hay for cattle on the other farm. Some here and there are fine, but I've had to chainsaw the trees along the edge of the fields, so that I have some room to plant. I left the sawed trees lay, so I had to go back in some spots and cut up the fallen trees to make room for seedlings. That made the process harder for sure. The other problem I had was being dehydrated like you mention. Big mistake, so I'll definitely be taking your advice on snacks and water! I suppose I'll do the same as you with a trailer on the next set of trees. That should also cut down on time. If nothing else, this smaller planting helped me realize what I needed to change for next time.

 

[Needmorebrush82]

They had the trees in a container, but these were basically bare root trees with the roots in sawdust inside a plastic bag. It was tough to see the soil line on them after soaking the roots. They had a few small fibrous roots and pruned woody roots. I saw where one had put out some fresh roots, but the others had no new visible growth. Hopefully they were planted to the proper depth. I probably dug more of a hole than needed with these particular trees, but I figured since there weren't many, it might give the roots the best chance by breaking up the soil in a 1.5 to 2 ft wide circle. I planted four before I realized I had 2' x 2' weed mats, which are essentially black trash bags. I hadn't seen a whole lot written about them. Do those weed mats need rocks or pebbles on top to keep the soil from getting too hot? I'll probably go back and put some on the other 4 next trip.

Yes the others seedlings on order are bare roots. I don't have a dibble bar. I used a shovel. I have a 2" drill auger. I wasn't sure if that would work at the time I ordered the trees. Actually, that's another question...I'm sure it depends on the size of the roots on the trees, but will that work or does the hole need to be much bigger? One of my problems is that I was asked by my dad not to plant them in fields in order to preserve hay for cattle on the other farm. Some here and there are fine, but I've had to chainsaw the trees along the edge of the fields, so that I have some room to plant. I left the sawed trees lay, so I had to go back in some spots and cut up the fallen trees to make room for seedlings. That made the process harder for sure. The other problem I had was being dehydrated like you mention. Big mistake, so I'll definitely be taking your advice on snacks and water! I suppose I'll do the same as you with a trailer on the next set of trees. That should also cut down on time. If nothing else, this smaller planting helped me realize what I needed to change for next time.

I trim roots on bare root seedlings if they don't fit in the hole properly. Yes it takes time but why take the time to plant them if you're not going to do it right. I see a lot of guys forcing them in the hole only to have disappointment follow in the years to come. I have never seen any ill effects from trimming roots to properly fit a hole so I continue to use the method. The last thing you want to do is have to dig a hole for each bare root tree, that's a ton of work! If its a special tree like a Concordia Oak yes I will dig holes, dug 40 of them last Sunday and tubed them up. A Burr Oak or any other common oak will get the roots trimmed if needed to make it fit properly. Augers kind of spook me unless you can carry enough water to settle the soil around the tree before you leave it. Years ago I augered a couple hundred holes and had the misfortune of figuring out after it had rained my trees had sunk into their holes a few inches and that superb planting job was no longer superb at all. Digging the larger hole like you did with the pears is a whole lot better or if you had a large auger it would probably be safe to plant with. I just see a 2 inch hole being complicated to get the dirt back into properly with a tree in the hole too! You def want to put some weight on your weed matts or the wind will shred them in no time. As far as heat goes I do not have an answer for you.

 

[blueKYstream]

I didn't think about the wind and the weed mat, which was kind of stupid now that I think about it. I know they have staples to secure them (that the supplier forgot to ship to me and I'm currently working to obtain). Are the staples not going to work you think? I could find rocks almost everywhere around where I plant, but putting pebbles around them would be more difficult with additional cost. My concern with rocks is that it could attract moles/mice. I planted 1 pawpaw last year and put rocks by it with the thought it would retain moisture. Well, a mole dug underneath it. I'm not sure if that seedling survived yet or not.

I think I could get an auger hooked up to a tractor for digging post holes. However, I don't know the size of it or if it's better/quicker than the alternative. Part of the reason I say that is there will likely be 5 trees here, 3 there, 8 way over there, etc rather than rows of trees. I considered tree seedlings sinking a bit with a drill auger, but I wouldn't have imagined it would be enough to sink them much. I'm not sure which way to go. I might try a combination. I don't know. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[yoderjac]

I didn't think about the wind and the weed mat, which was kind of stupid now that I think about it. I know they have staples to secure them (that the supplier forgot to ship to me and I'm currently working to obtain). Are the staples not going to work you think? I could find rocks almost everywhere around where I plant, but putting pebbles around them would be more difficult with additional cost. My concern with rocks is that it could attract moles/mice. I planted 1 pawpaw last year and put rocks by it with the thought it would retain moisture. Well, a mole dug underneath it. I'm not sure if that seedling survived yet or not.

I think I could get an auger hooked up to a tractor for digging post holes. However, I don't know the size of it or if it's better/quicker than the alternative. Part of the reason I say that is there will likely be 5 trees here, 3 there, 8 way over there, etc rather than rows of trees. I considered tree seedlings sinking a bit with a drill auger, but I wouldn't have imagined it would be enough to sink them much. I'm not sure which way to go. I might try a combination. I don't know. Thanks for the suggestions!

Just the opposite. Organic mulch attracts mice and other critters. I use a gas and water permeable landscaping cloth covered by quarry stone. I always have a load of it sitting around to repair potholes in our entry road. I pick up a load with my FEL when I head out to plant trees. I'm planting in heavy clay. (I'm also planting seedlings I've grown myself from Rootbuilder II containers so some of what I do does not translate to bare root trees). If you are planting in clay, one thing that does apply is to use a hand rake to rough up the sides of the hole. The auger can cause glazing in the clay. If you have good loam this is probably not an issue. Because of the big difference in water infiltration between my clay soil and the medium I use in RB2s, I need to take special precautions for trees like Chestnuts that don't like bare feet. I dig a very deep hole but the auger diameter is very close to the diameter of the RB2 I'm planting from. I back fill the hole with quarry stone and then add some native clay. I unwrap the RB2 so the air pruned root ball is completely undisturbed. I place the tree such that the medium sticks up about an inch. I also choose a site where ground water is not likely to drain in. I then use native clay soil to build up a lip over the 1" protrusion of the medium. I then apply the landscape cloth and stone.

Here is how it works: Keep in mind that these are not like bare root trees that sleep for a year, creep for a year and finally leap. They begin growing immediately. The difference in infiltration can cause the tree to either drown or dry out depending on conditions. In my area we get ample spring and fall rain but summer can be dry. Because of the backfill of quarry stone, and ponding that is created is well below the root ball. Because the auger is similar in diameter to the RB2, it doesn't take long for the lateral roots to grow into the native clay that retains moisture much better than the medium. So, by summer the tree has access to water when it is dry.

I don't offer this as an appropriate technique for your planting but there may be some principles you can use.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

Just the opposite. Organic mulch attracts mice and other critters. I use a gas and water permeable landscaping cloth covered by quarry stone. I always have a load of it sitting around to repair potholes in our entry road. I pick up a load with my FEL when I head out to plant trees. I'm planting in heavy clay. (I'm also planting seedlings I've grown myself from Rootbuilder II containers so some of what I do does not translate to bare root trees). If you are planting in clay, one thing that does apply is to use a hand rake to rough up the sides of the hole. The auger can cause glazing in the clay. If you have good loam this is probably not an issue. Because of the big difference in water infiltration between my clay soil and the medium I use in RB2s, I need to take special precautions for trees like Chestnuts that don't like bare feet. I dig a very deep hole but the auger diameter is very close to the diameter of the RB2 I'm planting from. I back fill the hole with quarry stone and then add some native clay. I unwrap the RB2 so the air pruned root ball is completely undisturbed. I place the tree such that the medium sticks up about an inch. I also choose a site where ground water is not likely to drain in. I then use native clay soil to build up a lip over the 1" protrusion of the medium. I then apply the landscape cloth and stone.

Here is how it works: Keep in mind that these are not like bare root trees that sleep for a year, creep for a year and finally leap. They begin growing immediately. The difference in infiltration can cause the tree to either drown or dry out depending on conditions. In my area we get ample spring and fall rain but summer can be dry. Because of the backfill of quarry stone, and ponding that is created is well below the root ball. Because the auger is similar in diameter to the RB2, it doesn't take long for the lateral roots to grow into the native clay that retains moisture much better than the medium. So, by summer the tree has access to water when it is dry.

I don't offer this as an appropriate technique for your planting but there may be some principles you can use.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,

I see why you're roughing up the clay when using an auger and using rocks for drainage on chestnut rootbuilder plantings. I assume you backfill up to an inch of your medium then add clay to account for ground sinking a bit. I'm planting in heavy clay with the same climate/rain patterns, albeit a zone lower. Just about every spot I could plant is on a slope, so that will help some with water pooling in the hole. Since I'm not using a medium and I'm backfilling with clay, I'm guessing that will reduce pooling as well. I'm hoping that means I can get away with not adding quarry in the hole. It also sounds like it might be best to use a shovel to plant (or dibble bar which I don't have) as opposed to an auger.

I recall you saying that organic mulch attracts mice and voles (which I agree). I don't know if anything was specifically said about using larger rocks around or on top of the weed mat. It seems like the crevices in or underneath rocks would be good places for mice and voles. If not, I think I would like to use those on top of the weed mats, if staples won't suffice. Small pebbles wouldn't permit rodents to hide, so I know that would be fine. I just would hope to not have to go buy a bunch of those bags and haul them around all day along with all the other stuff.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

I see why you're roughing up the clay when using an auger and using rocks for drainage on chestnut rootbuilder plantings. I assume you backfill up to an inch of your medium then add clay to account for ground sinking a bit. I'm planting in heavy clay with the same climate/rain patterns, albeit a zone lower. Just about every spot I could plant is on a slope, so that will help some with water pooling in the hole. Since I'm not using a medium and I'm backfilling with clay, I'm guessing that will reduce pooling as well. I'm hoping that means I can get away with not adding quarry in the hole. It also sounds like it might be best to use a shovel to plant (or dibble bar which I don't have) as opposed to an auger.

I recall you saying that organic mulch attracts mice and voles (which I agree). I don't know if anything was specifically said about using larger rocks around or on top of the weed mat. It seems like the crevices in or underneath rocks would be good places for mice and voles. If not, I think I would like to use those on top of the weed mats, if staples won't suffice. Small pebbles wouldn't permit rodents to hide, so I know that would be fine. I just would hope to not have to go buy a bunch of those bags and haul them around all day along with all the other stuff.

For bare root trees, backfilling with the native clay like you are doing is the best approach. You don't create the differential infiltration and since they are bare root anyway, it is not like you would be disturbing the root ball any more than it already is.

I don't know about larger rocks. I've use quarry stone. They call it different things in different places. Here they call the stuff I'm using 56. I don't know if it is because they absorb heat or what but mice don't nest in them. Each stone is roughly the size of my thumb. I have heard that in some areas the heat may be an issue for the tree, but I have not found that to be the case on my area. I like them because they are permanent and don't need to be frequently replaced like organic much that breaks down.

Thanks,

Jack