Greenhorn Questions on Tree Seedling Plantings

[blueKYstream]

As far as the American persimmons go, have you done an inventory on your land yet? By far, the best bang for the buck for me has been to convert natively growing male persimmons on my land to female. This produces more soft mast faster and at a very low cost than any thing else I've done with trees. Here is a thread from when I first started doing that with lots of pictures: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/

Especially if you are in KY, you should talk to Cliff England (England's Nursery). He has been a great help to me with persimmons and pawpaw. He is very knowledgeable. I've planted hundreds of chestnuts from Dunstan nuts. Only a few have died. I've seen no real signs of blight on them. We also have Allegheny chinquapins growing natively here. They are in the chestnut family. I've collected the small nuts from them and propagated them. They are susceptible to blight, but unlike American chestnuts, it does not stop them from producing nuts. They generally take more of a bush form. They produce nuts when pretty young. When they get blight (or fire), they die back to the stump and then resprout and quickly produce more nuts.

There are lots of Chinese chestnut varieties. Auburn has patented a few with some good wildlife characteristics, AU Buck III and IV. III drops is touted to drop mid-September through mid-October and IV is touted to drop mid-October through mid-November. Just a couple to consider. I think the patent has been licensed to the Wildlife Group.

Probably the tree in the chestnut family I'm most excited about right now is Castanea seguinii. It is commonly called Chinese Chinquapin, Dwarf Asian Chestnut, Seguin and Everblooming Chestnut. I propagate most of my chestnuts from nuts myself. I've been trying to get some of these going for a couple years now. I finally bought a few trees from the Wildlife Group last winter and put them in 3 gal RB 2 containers. They grew on my deck and produce nuts the first season I had them. I'm now propagating those nuts: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...uts-question-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5553/. These don't get blight. They produce small nuts similar to Allegheny chinquapins and can produce multiple crops each year. They are generally bush like, but as you can see near the end of that thread, shredder posted some information that some 90' tall have been found in China. What is not to like, a tree that can produce its multiple crops of chestnuts in its second growing season, is blight resistant, and can reach 90'. Wow! I'm sure it is not a fit for all zones, but it is worth a hard look.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,

OK, I'm floored with your knowledge. I've searched the forum and was able to read some of what you had said previously. It's good to hear that Dunstan's aren't a bad option. As far as the Allegheny Chinquapins, I think I'm inclined to start with something that's a little less of a problem as a first planting. I may consider it for future plantings though because I know native trees are typically best. I'm intrigued by the Dwarf Asian Chestnut for sure. However, I can't find anywhere that offers seedlings. I also don't really see any chestnut options on the Wildlife Group website at this point. I'm going back and forth on price vs quantity. With some sites charging $30-$60 a tree, I'm thinking I won't get to plant more than 5 or 10. If I wanted a couple for my backyard, the exotic nurseries would be a good choice. However, if some died, I'd probably cry haha. I'm curious if the state nurseries all come from 1 Chinese Chestnut variety or if they are a mixture. I'm kinda sorta leaning towards state nursery stock at $85 for 100 shipped (or less if I get fewer trees which is a probability) unless you think that's a bad choice or if you know a better option.

I know that my property has at least one persimmon tree, but I hadn't found any others. To be quite honest, I'm just now learning about them. If I do find some, the root stock likely won't be in places I want them. Grafting them is a daunting task right now for me. I fear ordering from some of these sites that I'm going to find out only the male trees survived my plantings, the few I ordered turn out not to be female, or something crazy. The Tree Pro source that has grafted female trees with different drop times sounds like a great option at 10 for $150 (I hope?). I don't know what kind of pear varieties they offer though.

 

[SD51555]

1. Spend the money on some kind of plastic stake. I've used oak and bamboo and watched them all snap off and kill the tree as they go to the ground.
2. Get wire ties. Zip ties will get brittle and break on you after a year or two in the sun.
3. Be sure you can commit up to 5+ years of annual maintenance to those tubes. I don't know your varieties, but I've had to prune and clean out my tubes every year to keep the trees growing correctly.
4. Don't skip the weed barrier.
5. Make sure your stake is inside the tube.

Do less better, instead of doing more half way. You'll end up with far more in the end.

 

[blueKYstream]

1. Spend the money on some kind of plastic stake. I've used oak and bamboo and watched them all snap off and kill the tree as they go to the ground.
2. Get wire ties. Zip ties will get brittle and break on you after a year or two in the sun.
3. Be sure you can commit up to 5+ years of annual maintenance to those tubes. I don't know your varieties, but I've had to prune and clean out my tubes every year to keep the trees growing correctly.
4. Don't skip the weed barrier.
5. Make sure your stake is inside the tube.

Do less better, instead of doing more half way. You'll end up with far more in the end.

All good tips! Thank you! As far as staking inside the tube, I hadn't ever seen or heard that before. Is that supposed to cut down on bucks fooling with them? I thought they were designed to have it secured outside the tube but it's probably self-explanatory to set up that way when I get the tube in hand.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,

OK, I'm floored with your knowledge. I've searched the forum and was able to read some of what you had said previously. It's good to hear that Dunstan's aren't a bad option. As far as the Allegheny Chinquapins, I think I'm inclined to start with something that's a little less of a problem as a first planting. I may consider it for future plantings though because I know native trees are typically best. I'm intrigued by the Dwarf Asian Chestnut for sure. However, I can't find anywhere that offers seedlings. I also don't really see any chestnut options on the Wildlife Group website at this point. I'm going back and forth on price vs quantity. With some sites charging $30-$60 a tree, I'm thinking I won't get to plant more than 5 or 10. If I wanted a couple for my backyard, the exotic nurseries would be a good choice. However, if some died, I'd probably cry haha. I'm curious if the state nurseries all come from 1 Chinese Chestnut variety or if they are a mixture. I'm kinda sorta leaning towards state nursery stock at $85 for 100 shipped (or less if I get fewer trees which is a probability) unless you think that's a bad choice or if you know a better option.

I know that my property has at least one persimmon tree, but I hadn't found any others. To be quite honest, I'm just now learning about them. If I do find some, the root stock likely won't be in places I want them. Grafting them is a daunting task right now for me. I fear ordering from some of these sites that I'm going to find out only the male trees survived my plantings, the few I ordered turn out not to be female, or something crazy. The Tree Pro source that has grafted female trees with different drop times sounds like a great option at 10 for $150 (I hope?). I don't know what kind of pear varieties they offer though.

I'm still learning more than I know. I've learned from others willing to share with me and I'm more than happy to pass on what I know. As for Allegheny Chinquapins, KY is slight out of their native range, but I doubt your climate is far enough from the native range for it to be problematic: http://www.plantmaps.com/nrm-castanea-pumila-allegheny-chinkapin-native-range-map. I have not found them to be a problem but I am in the native range and they do grow natively on my farm.

The Wildlife Group carries the Seguins. They call them "Chinese Chinquapin". They may not be in the current catalog but here is an old one so you can see their description: http://www.wildlifegroup.com/catalogue/WildlifeGroupDigitalCatalog2013-14.pdf. I understand they had a bad year propagating them and are not selling them this year to build their stocks. I just bought a couple bare root seedlings and am growing them in root pruning containers to collect nuts for propagation.

Folks planting a few trees for attraction can usually do fine buying trees. I'm looking to use mast trees as part of a permaculture approach to feed wildlife. That requires volume. I ended up investing in a basement growing setup with a root pruning container system. There was some up front cost but when I amortize that cost over quite a few years of growing trees from seed/nuts, my cost per tree is very low and it is a great cabin fever project in the winter. My biggest limitation now is time to plant the trees I grow and managing the cost of protection.

As for persimmons, keep this in mind. American persimmons are slow. Under good conditions, I'd estimate the time to fruit is 8 to 10 years for a seedling. When you graft a seedling with a scion from a producing tree, that scion has the hormones of a mature tree. That might cut a couple years off of the time to fruit. When you plant a bare root tree, the saying is: Year 1 sleep, Year 2 creep, and finally in Year 3 leap. If you buy larger containerized trees, unless they were grown in a root pruning system, you risk circling or j-hooking roots. These trees can do and look great when young but those roots can eventually constrict and become problematic for the tree. You can alleviate this by hand pruning the roots before planting but they then act like a bare root tree. Either direct seeding or using a root pruning container system can get around these issues but you still have a long time to fruit with persimmons.

If you have one persimmon growing natively on your place you likely have a lot more male trees that you have not yet identified. They have a great head start on anything you can plant. I'd make a concerted effort to find and mark them. Bark grafting persimmons is one of the easiest forms of grafting because it does not require cambium alignment.

Others can help you with pear choices better than I can.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Northbound]

All good tips! Thank you! As far as staking inside the tube, I hadn't ever seen or heard that before. Is that supposed to cut down on bucks fooling with them? I thought they were designed to have it secured outside the tube but it's probably self-explanatory to set up that way when I get the tube in hand.

I think they are designed to stake outside, based on how the zip ties come installed from suppliers but I too put stakes inside tube. Should a tie break it won't let tube fall over, exception would be if using a t-stake that would take up to much space in the tube.

 

[SD51555]

All good tips! Thank you! As far as staking inside the tube, I hadn't ever seen or heard that before. Is that supposed to cut down on bucks fooling with them? I thought they were designed to have it secured outside the tube but it's probably self-explanatory to set up that way when I get the tube in hand.

You need the stake inside to act as a splint. When your trees start to develop a canopy above the tube, they'll start putting pressure on that top fastener and the tube as it sways. Then when a good wind hits it, your tube will kink over at the top fastener and snap your tree trunk. Those hurt the most because there was a nice tree sticking out the top.

 

[blueKYstream]

I'm still learning more than I know. I've learned from others willing to share with me and I'm more than happy to pass on what I know. As for Allegheny Chinquapins, KY is slight out of their native range, but I doubt your climate is far enough from the native range for it to be problematic: http://www.plantmaps.com/nrm-castanea-pumila-allegheny-chinkapin-native-range-map. I have not found them to be a problem but I am in the native range and they do grow natively on my farm.

The Wildlife Group carries the Seguins. They call them "Chinese Chinquapin". They may not be in the current catalog but here is an old one so you can see their description: http://www.wildlifegroup.com/catalogue/WildlifeGroupDigitalCatalog2013-14.pdf. I understand they had a bad year propagating them and are not selling them this year to build their stocks. I just bought a couple bare root seedlings and am growing them in root pruning containers to collect nuts for propagation.

Folks planting a few trees for attraction can usually do fine buying trees. I'm looking to use mast trees as part of a permaculture approach to feed wildlife. That requires volume. I ended up investing in a basement growing setup with a root pruning container system. There was some up front cost but when I amortize that cost over quite a few years of growing trees from seed/nuts, my cost per tree is very low and it is a great cabin fever project in the winter. My biggest limitation now is time to plant the trees I grow and managing the cost of protection.

As for persimmons, keep this in mind. American persimmons are slow. Under good conditions, I'd estimate the time to fruit is 8 to 10 years for a seedling. When you graft a seedling with a scion from a producing tree, that scion has the hormones of a mature tree. That might cut a couple years off of the time to fruit. When you plant a bare root tree, the saying is: Year 1 sleep, Year 2 creep, and finally in Year 3 leap. If you buy larger containerized trees, unless they were grown in a root pruning system, you risk circling or j-hooking roots. These trees can do and look great when young but those roots can eventually constrict and become problematic for the tree. You can alleviate this by hand pruning the roots before planting but they then act like a bare root tree. Either direct seeding or using a root pruning container system can get around these issues but you still have a long time to fruit with persimmons.

If you have one persimmon growing natively on your place you likely have a lot more male trees that you have not yet identified. They have a great head start on anything you can plant. I'd make a concerted effort to find and mark them. Bark grafting persimmons is one of the easiest forms of grafting because it does not require cambium alignment.

Others can help you with pear choices better than I can.

Best of luck,

Jack

You have an expensive but cool hobby! It would be fun to try for sure. Who knows, maybe I'll get my feet wet this spring with it all and decide to set up shop in the tree growing "business". My wife has pretty much taken up my entire house between her clothes and her photography business. Throw a kid in the mix and I'm lucky I'm able to hunt, let alone spend days/weeks cutting trees, planting trees, mowing grass, trapping, and other habitat management stuff! I sometimes have help but I'm pretty much a lone ranger with the improvements.

I really like the sound of the Chinese Chinquapin. It sounds promising! It looks like it may be borderline hardy for me in zone 6 (zone 6 or 7 hardiness based on different sources) I'm really going to try to learn to spot tree species better. I've learned a lot in a little amount of time having a forester to look at the property. I don't believe he saw any persimmon, but I've been told of a spot where one is. I will certainly review the attributes of the persimmon and then go find out. A friend gave me some from a buddy he visited in FL. They weren't ripe though as I later found out from eating it. If I can get a few seedlings planted that can provide a good base to help out the deer and other animals to some extent within 3, 5, 10 years, I will be happy with that for now. After that, I think it will be easier to graft the persimmon and pick up some of the specialty/exotic varieties to fine tune what I'm missing.

 

[blueKYstream]

I think they are designed to stake outside, based on how the zip ties come installed from suppliers but I too put stakes inside tube. Should a tie break it won't let tube fall over, exception would be if using a t-stake that would take up to much space in the tube.

Northbound and SD51555,

That sounds like a smart idea. I imagine the stake would have to be fairly skinny so as to not block out tree growth or stunt the girth of the tree before it's time to remove from the tube from the tree? Also, does that effect your ability to maintain grasses and such in the tubes?

 

[SD51555]

I think they are designed to stake outside, based on how the zip ties come installed from suppliers but I too put stakes inside tube. Should a tie break it won't let tube fall over, exception would be if using a t-stake that would take up to much space in the tube.

Northbound and SD51555,

That sounds like a smart idea. I imagine the stake would have to be fairly skinny so as to not block out tree growth or stunt the girth of the tree before it's time to remove from the tube from the tree? Also, does that effect your ability to maintain grasses and such in the tubes?

Just make sure the stake is on the north side of your tube so it doesn’t block sunlight. By the time the trunk is ready to bust out of the tube, it’ll be UV degraded and break away as designed.

They still come apart like they would if the stake was outside. Also be careful not to get your trees pinched between your stake and fastener.

This is what mine look like when they’re all set up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[H20fwler]

Dunstans don’t like wet feet at all, they also aren’t as adaptable to different soils that have more clay.
Bartlett is a fantastic pear one of my favorite, very common in my area every old homestead around here has them. Not quite as DR as other pears and an early dropper usually September for me.

 

[yoderjac]

Dunstans don’t like wet feet at all, they also aren’t as adaptable to different soils that have more clay.
Bartlett is a fantastic pear one of my favorite, very common in my area every old homestead around here has them. Not quite as DR as other pears and an early dropper usually September for me.

You are right that Dunstans don't like wet feet. While clay will hold more water than sand, that doesn't mean you can't plant Dunstans in clay soil. Mine is heavy clay. You may have to be more careful about site selection in clay. You definitely don't want to plant anywhere ground water will settle.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

Thanks for the picture SD51555. Putting the stake inside is added insurance. I like it!

Dunstans don't seem like much of a standout over the generic (and cheaper) Chinese Chestnuts from what it sounds like. Unfortunately, I think I may be too late in the game to get the AU Bucks and Chinese Chinquapin. Ever heard of the "Northern Chestnut" (Chinese variety)? I was thinking of getting the grafted varieties of persimmons 'Deer Candy' and 'Deer Magnet' hoping to cut some time. I was informed of couple pears sold by the same company that I can't seem to find a thing about: "The granddad pear is a large pear. The Grandpa Pear is a small fist size pear. The late drop is a common pear about the size of your fist. We actually pulled one off the tree in December and it still had fantastic flavor." Seems a little light on details.

Wildlife group states:
Dunstan Chestnut – Blight resistant, large nut but not a large volume pro- ducer. Stout growing tree with taller, more pronounced trunk. Timber value a plus. Drop date September through early October.
Chinese Chestnut – Blight resistant, large volume producers grown from seed. The nuts will vary in size and taste. 15 year old trees average 150 pounds of nuts. Drop date September through early October.
AU Buck II – Blight resistant , heavy producer, large nut, grafted variety. Large crops annually. Drops mid-Sep- tember thru mid-October. In 2006, the original 15 year old AU Buck II tree produced 282 pounds of nuts.
AU Buck III – Blight resistant, heavy crop annually, medium sized nut, grafted. Drop date late September through October.
AU Buck IV – Blight resistant, large nut, medium producer, grafted. Latest droppping chestnut typically starting around October 10th and lasting well into November.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the picture SD51555. Putting the stake inside is added insurance. I like it!

Dunstans don't seem like much of a standout over the generic (and cheaper) Chinese Chestnuts from what it sounds like. Unfortunately, I think I may be too late in the game to get the AU Bucks and Chinese Chinquapin. Ever heard of the "Northern Chestnut" (Chinese variety)? I was thinking of getting the grafted varieties of persimmons 'Deer Candy' and 'Deer Magnet' hoping to cut some time. I was informed of couple pears sold by the same company that I can't seem to find a thing about: "The granddad pear is a large pear. The Grandpa Pear is a small fist size pear. The late drop is a common pear about the size of your fist. We actually pulled one off the tree in December and it still had fantastic flavor." Seems a little light on details.

Wildlife group states:
Dunstan Chestnut – Blight resistant, large nut but not a large volume pro- ducer. Stout growing tree with taller, more pronounced trunk. Timber value a plus. Drop date September through early October.
Chinese Chestnut – Blight resistant, large volume producers grown from seed. The nuts will vary in size and taste. 15 year old trees average 150 pounds of nuts. Drop date September through early October.
AU Buck II – Blight resistant , heavy producer, large nut, grafted variety. Large crops annually. Drops mid-Sep- tember thru mid-October. In 2006, the original 15 year old AU Buck II tree produced 282 pounds of nuts.
AU Buck III – Blight resistant, heavy crop annually, medium sized nut, grafted. Drop date late September through October.
AU Buck IV – Blight resistant, large nut, medium producer, grafted. Latest droppping chestnut typically starting around October 10th and lasting well into November.

Dunstans have some very nice characteristics for wildlife. The husk opens and the nut generally falls to the ground. This makes the easier to access for deer than trying to pull them out of those spiny husks. They are a cross between Chinese and American. Some trees will take more of the Chinese form branching out early and others will take more of the tall central leader American form. Having said that, they were overhyped by all the hunting magazines a few years ago. Chestnut hiill has done some great marketing to hunters driving up the price.

Because of the high price and the volume I needed, I decided to learn to grow my own. Chestnuts are much truer to seed than other things like apples when it comes to the important wildlife characteristics. I bought nuts from a chestnut orchard that planted the original Dunstan trees. When we talk about Dunstans on the forum, we are often really talking about the offspring of Dunstan rather than the actual grafted Dunstan chestnuts. Keep in mind that Dunstan can be misleading. It refers to a specific cross/back-cross between American and Chinese that was patented. It also refers to a trademark used by Chestnut Hill. So, they can sell seed propagated trees and call them Dunstan (the trademark) even though they are not clones of the original Dunstan.

You will find that the AU buck III and IV are even more expensive. The number of AU Buck IV trees is pretty limited since they are new allowing for a hefty price. Not a problem if you are buying a few, but for volume the cost goes up quickly. There is also an old AU super that is a good producer.

Also, keep in mind that when using one source for your information you will likely see some bias. For example the AU patents are exclusively licensed to the Wildlife Group and Dunstan is exclusive to Chestnut Hill.

As for persimmons don't be deceived by names like "Deer Magnet", "Deer Candy", and so on. There is nothing particularly wrong with them but they are no better than many others. Most of the persimmons you will find come from the old Jim Claypool work. Those trees were named based on position in his orchard using numbers and letters. I have a copy of the old Claypool records where he describes the characteristics of each tree. Jim (now dead) and his "successor", Jerry Lehman were/are trying to commercialize persimmons for human consumption. Some of the trees turned out to be prolific but the fruit had some characteristic (like black spots, poor taste characteristics, etc.) that made them less marketable for human consumption. Deer don't care about these. So, many of these trees were rebranded as "Deer Whatever" and are being marketed to deer hunters by different nurseries. Again, there is nothing wrong with them and I'm sure they will make great wildlife trees, just don't think they are any better than many other persimmons. Precocious trees are just as important to commercial applications as they are to deer hunters.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

Dunstans have some very nice characteristics for wildlife. The husk opens and the nut generally falls to the ground. This makes the easier to access for deer than trying to pull them out of those spiny husks. They are a cross between Chinese and American. Some trees will take more of the Chinese form branching out early and others will take more of the tall central leader American form. Having said that, they were overhyped by all the hunting magazines a few years ago. Chestnut hiill has done some great marketing to hunters driving up the price.

Because of the high price and the volume I needed, I decided to learn to grow my own. Chestnuts are much truer to seed than other things like apples when it comes to the important wildlife characteristics. I bought nuts from a chestnut orchard that planted the original Dunstan trees. When we talk about Dunstans on the forum, we are often really talking about the offspring of Dunstan rather than the actual grafted Dunstan chestnuts. Keep in mind that Dunstan can be misleading. It refers to a specific cross/back-cross between American and Chinese that was patented. It also refers to a trademark used by Chestnut Hill. So, they can sell seed propagated trees and call them Dunstan (the trademark) even though they are not clones of the original Dunstan.

You will find that the AU buck III and IV are even more expensive. The number of AU Buck IV trees is pretty limited since they are new allowing for a hefty price. Not a problem if you are buying a few, but for volume the cost goes up quickly. There is also an old AU super that is a good producer.

Also, keep in mind that when using one source for your information you will likely see some bias. For example the AU patents are exclusively licensed to the Wildlife Group and Dunstan is exclusive to Chestnut Hill.

As for persimmons don't be deceived by names like "Deer Magnet", "Deer Candy", and so on. There is nothing particularly wrong with them but they are no better than many others. Most of the persimmons you will find come from the old Jim Claypool work. Those trees were named based on position in his orchard using numbers and letters. I have a copy of the old Claypool records where he describes the characteristics of each tree. Jim (now dead) and his "successor", Jerry Lehman were/are trying to commercialize persimmons for human consumption. Some of the trees turned out to be prolific but the fruit had some characteristic (like black spots, poor taste characteristics, etc.) that made them less marketable for human consumption. Deer don't care about these. So, many of these trees were rebranded as "Deer Whatever" and are being marketed to deer hunters by different nurseries. Again, there is nothing wrong with them and I'm sure they will make great wildlife trees, just don't think they are any better than many other persimmons. Precocious trees are just as important to commercial applications as they are to deer hunters.

Thanks,

Jack

That's some interesting information Jack. Thank you for sharing. Based on everyone's suggestions, I think I'd ideally like to have about 15 of each: persimmon, chestnuts, and pear trees. It sounds like there are pros/cons to pears and it might be worth getting a "good" variety for disease resistance, yield, and drop date. I'm going back and forth on the persimmon and chestnuts. Frankly, I don't have many options I don't think at this point in the year for chestnuts. I can plant Dunstan (a couple sources but probably go with Tree Pro who also sells a 'Northern Chestnut' that is Chinese) or a generic Chinese Chestnut (KY state nursery). I don't see any other seedling varieties available to me this year unless I'm mistaken. My main goal is deer food. Of course, I'd like to have a huntable crop in 5 or so years but if it takes a couple years more for some of the varieties, I will live with that. I'm realistic enough, I think, to know that the yields won't be big in that time frame. If you were me, do you think I should 1) get 10 Dunstan's and Northern Chestnuts for $150 with the protectors from Tree Pro or 2) roughly 20 Chinese Chestnuts from the state nursery for about $60 then buy the tubes, stakes, weed mats and plant what I can (I won't feel bad if I can't get all in the ground and properly protected at that cost)? I'm open to other suggestions if I'm missing an option.

I have an order in for American persimmons with the state nursery. I can cancel at any time though. I suppose these online nurseries want me to think that the 'Deer Candy' persimmon, which is grafted, will grow a bit more quickly. If that's not true, then I might as well get the common American variety for much less. If they are close to the same, the only downside to the common persimmon is that I won't know which are male/female until later (and all take a while to fruit). Once I get some going, I can then look into grafting like you mention. For now though, I think my only option is to plant seedlings. From Chestnut Hill: "'Deer Candy' Persimmons are all grafted female trees, which means they will come into bearing fruit in 2-3 years...The trees are vigorous and grow very rapidly". There is no mention of rapid growth with 'Deer Magnet'. Only that they drop late. Probably not much of an "advantage" to 'Deer Magnet' outside of drop times with that variety perhaps.

EDIT: I called England's nursery in KY. They have some European-Asian chestnuts and several pear varieties that I could go pick up. The problem is the chestnuts are 6+ feet! It was a good thought though.

 

[yoderjac]

If your only criteria is to produce food for wildlife, Chinese chestnuts are less hyped and command a lower price and still produce good food. If it were me, I'd start with those and only buy what you can protect. The cost balance is different for me because I grow my own from nuts. For Dunstans, I'd wait until next fall and buy nuts from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County and direct seed those nuts with protection.

All of the folks marketing to deer hunters tend to be very optimistic about how quick their trees will produce. Under the right conditions with the right soils and right care they may be right. In most cases in real world conditions they will take longer and grow slower than they suggest. It is true that a grafted persimmon can cut a few years off the time it takes for a seedling to produce. This is because the scion has hormones from a mature producing tree. The thing that really cuts time off is having a well established root system (a tree with an inch or two in diameter) that is grafted in the field. The scion from a mature tree with a well established large root system can produce fruit in the third leaf after grafting.

I'm not saying there is no benefit to buying grafted persimmons from a nursery. I'm just saying you need to decide if the cost-reward ratio is worth it to you. There is a lot of puffing in the industry. There is no downside to not knowing if common persimmons are male or female. Simply wait until they hit an inch or so in diameter, cut them down and bark graft them to the variety you want.

There is nothing wrong with buying a few grafted trees from a nursery and giving them special care for attraction and buying inexpensive persimmons from the state for volume. Bark grafting persimmons is easy and inexpensive and you will have plenty of time between now and when they hit an inch in diameter to learn.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[buckdeer1]

Everyone likes to plant trees but as mentioned they can be expensive.If I was doing fruit trees call someone like the wildlife group or buy at the box stores when they are on sale.Don't buy dwarf and find out what grows in your area and find if you need cedar apple rust resistant trees.This is another reason pears are sometimes easier.Have you checked on any government programs?I planted several thousand trees and shrubs on the riparian buffer program if you have a creek.I like planting shrub plots as they make great bedding for all wildlife.I planted several 6-10 tree orchards and the rest were oaks.I have lots of pawpaws but have never seen a deer eat them.Good luck and it sounds like you are already hooked.

 

[H20fwler]

That's some interesting information Jack. Thank you for sharing. Based on everyone's suggestions, I think I'd ideally like to have about 15 of each: persimmon, chestnuts, and pear trees. It sounds like there are pros/cons to pears and it might be worth getting a "good" variety for disease resistance, yield, and drop date. I'm going back and forth on the persimmon and chestnuts. Frankly, I don't have many options I don't think at this point in the year for chestnuts. I can plant Dunstan (a couple sources but probably go with Tree Pro who also sells a 'Northern Chestnut' that is Chinese) or a generic Chinese Chestnut (KY state nursery). I don't see any other seedling varieties available to me this year unless I'm mistaken. My main goal is deer food. Of course, I'd like to have a huntable crop in 5 or so years but if it takes a couple years more for some of the varieties, I will live with that. I'm realistic enough, I think, to know that the yields won't be big in that time frame. If you were me, do you think I should 1) get 10 Dunstan's and Northern Chestnuts for $150 with the protectors from Tree Pro or 2) roughly 20 Chinese Chestnuts from the state nursery for about $60 then buy the tubes, stakes, weed mats and plant what I can (I won't feel bad if I can't get all in the ground and properly protected at that cost)? I'm open to other suggestions if I'm missing an option.

I have an order in for American persimmons with the state nursery. I can cancel at any time though. I suppose these online nurseries want me to think that the 'Deer Candy' persimmon, which is grafted, will grow a bit more quickly. If that's not true, then I might as well get the common American variety for much less. If they are close to the same, the only downside to the common persimmon is that I won't know which are male/female until later (and all take a while to fruit). Once I get some going, I can then look into grafting like you mention. For now though, I think my only option is to plant seedlings. From Chestnut Hill: "'Deer Candy' Persimmons are all grafted female trees, which means they will come into bearing fruit in 2-3 years...The trees are vigorous and grow very rapidly". There is no mention of rapid growth with 'Deer Magnet'. Only that they drop late. Probably not much of an "advantage" to 'Deer Magnet' outside of drop times with that variety perhaps.

EDIT: I called England's nursery in KY. They have some European-Asian chestnuts and several pear varieties that I could go pick up. The problem is the chestnuts are 6+ feet! It was a good thought though.

You are not to late to get Dunstan's, you can get very nice potted ones at Wal-Mart's and Rural Kings this spring in three gal pots that will be 3'-5' tall $32ish. Just watch the Chestnut Hills website this spring for delivery times http://www.chestnuthilltreefarm.com/ ...sometimes you can find them on sale. I planted a bunch of them a few years ago, half thrived a few stalled and a few died. You can buy nice bare root or potted Chinese from Empire Chestnut http://www.empirechestnut.com/catalog.htm , most nurseries sell small bare root Chinese.

 

[blueKYstream]

If your only criteria is to produce food for wildlife, Chinese chestnuts are less hyped and command a lower price and still produce good food. If it were me, I'd start with those and only buy what you can protect. The cost balance is different for me because I grow my own from nuts. For Dunstans, I'd wait until next fall and buy nuts from Chestnut Ridge of Pike County and direct seed those nuts with protection.

All of the folks marketing to deer hunters tend to be very optimistic about how quick their trees will produce. Under the right conditions with the right soils and right care they may be right. In most cases in real world conditions they will take longer and grow slower than they suggest. It is true that a grafted persimmon can cut a few years off the time it takes for a seedling to produce. This is because the scion has hormones from a mature producing tree. The thing that really cuts time off is having a well established root system (a tree with an inch or two in diameter) that is grafted in the field. The scion from a mature tree with a well established large root system can produce fruit in the third leaf after grafting.

I'm not saying there is no benefit to buying grafted persimmons from a nursery. I'm just saying you need to decide if the cost-reward ratio is worth it to you. There is a lot of puffing in the industry. There is no downside to not knowing if common persimmons are male or female. Simply wait until they hit an inch or so in diameter, cut them down and bark graft them to the variety you want.

There is nothing wrong with buying a few grafted trees from a nursery and giving them special care for attraction and buying inexpensive persimmons from the state for volume. Bark grafting persimmons is easy and inexpensive and you will have plenty of time between now and when they hit an inch in diameter to learn.

Thanks,

Jack

You have some good advice! I agree that I'm not sure there's a ton of benefit for me in growing Dunstan's. I can read up and learn some more about varieties and possibly grow some from seed by ordering those in the Fall. You mentioned some good ones earlier that I'll look into again.

I now better understand what you're saying about grafting. It might make a difference to me and it might not depending on the root stock and the age/health of it. I'm leaning towards the state nursery stock unless I can become convinced that it's premium root stock. Perhaps I can get a couple like you mention. We'll see.

Thanks for your help!

 

[blueKYstream]

Everyone likes to plant trees but as mentioned they can be expensive.If I was doing fruit trees call someone like the wildlife group or buy at the box stores when they are on sale.Don't buy dwarf and find out what grows in your area and find if you need cedar apple rust resistant trees.This is another reason pears are sometimes easier.Have you checked on any government programs?I planted several thousand trees and shrubs on the riparian buffer program if you have a creek.I like planting shrub plots as they make great bedding for all wildlife.I planted several 6-10 tree orchards and the rest were oaks.I have lots of pawpaws but have never seen a deer eat them.Good luck and it sounds like you are already hooked.

You bring up a good point about the government programs. I had a forester come out to my property. He said he would send his report and also some information about cost share programs available for removing invasives and/or planting trees. I was just sent the report, but I didn't see any of the programs in there. I called and left a voice message for him today. I do know that none are available this year.

My back just hurts thinking about planting 1,000 trees. That's awesome though! It's disheartening to hear you haven't had any deer touch pawpaws. That was the tree that really got me interested in planting trees. I got one free last year and planted it. I later found out I needed another to pollinate the first. I was dreaming of fighting the deer off to get a taste of a pawpaw!

 

[blueKYstream]

You are not to late to get Dunstan's, you can get very nice potted ones at Wal-Mart's and Rural Kings this spring in three gal pots that will be 3'-5' tall $32ish. Just watch the Chestnut Hills website this spring for delivery times http://www.chestnuthilltreefarm.com/ ...sometimes you can find them on sale. I planted a bunch of them a few years ago, half thrived a few stalled and a few died. You can buy nice bare root or potted Chinese from Empire Chestnut http://www.empirechestnut.com/catalog.htm , most nurseries sell small bare root Chinese.

I remember taking 3 trips to Walmart last year looking for some chestnut trees. Thank you for sharing the link. That Allegheny Chinkapin that Jack talked about I initially wrote off because of blight, but it sounds kind of interesting. I see that Empire carries it and it's a reasonable price too. I don't know if it would get lost in the forest shade over time or if deer might knock it out it out by rubbing it, but looks interesting!