Greenhorn Questions on Tree Seedling Plantings

[blueKYstream]

If anyone is interested, I put an order for:

50 - Chinese Chestnuts (KY State Nursery) - $80 shipped
100 - American Persimmon (IL state nursery) - $75 shipped - (I'll try to change to 50, but if it doesn't happen it's only $15 difference)
125 - 5 ft Tree Pro tubes (waiting on a quote) - Roughly $390 shipped
100 - 24" x 24" Weed Pro mats - these are non-permeable for what it's worth (waiting on a quote) - Roughly $82 shipped
I plan to make stakes by cutting 50 to 65 10-foot pieces of 1/2" pvc conduit - $92.50 total or $1.85 per 10 foot section for orders over 10
I will buy some sort of cage material if I find some pear trees.
Total (without pear trees) - $719.50

Did anyone need to use a metal pipe with a cap to drive the stakes or do they hold up well driving into clay (and possibly rocks)? I think that should cover my bases...I hope.

Thanks for everyone's help! I better get a Christmas card from the deer this year!

 

[yoderjac]

If anyone is interested, I put an order for:

50 - Chinese Chestnuts (KY State Nursery) - $80 shipped
100 - American Persimmon (IL state nursery) - $75 shipped - (I'll try to change to 50, but if it doesn't happen it's only $15 difference)
125 - 5 ft Tree Pro tubes (waiting on a quote) - Roughly $390 shipped
100 - 24" x 24" Weed Pro mats - these are non-permeable for what it's worth (waiting on a quote) - Roughly $82 shipped
I plan to make stakes by cutting 50 to 65 10-foot pieces of 1/2" pvc conduit - $92.50 total or $1.85 per 10 foot section for orders over 10
I will buy some sort of cage material if I find some pear trees.
Total (without pear trees) - $719.50

Did anyone need to use a metal pipe with a cap to drive the stakes or do they hold up well driving into clay (and possibly rocks)? I think that should cover my bases...I hope.

Thanks for everyone's help! I better get a Christmas card from the deer this year!

Looks like you got your work cut out for you! Congrats! Post some pictures and things progress. Best of luck!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

You're right, but I think they'll likely be shipped on different days (hopefully in April when I have help). I'm thinking it should be manageable. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again!

 

[blueKYstream]

I got the 125 tubes and 100 weed mats (I assume they're in the box) as well as 60" x 150' concrete mesh and 63 10' sections of 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC. I cut the PVC in 5' sections to make 126. How far in the ground do you all hammer the stakes?

 

[Knehrke]

As far as you can until the top of the PVC is a couple inches above the top zip tie on your tube, which is usually what's limiting (and why I like to use 6' PVC with 5' tubes).

Also, be sure to have a single 4' piece of PVC conduit that is wide enough for your stakes to just fit inside, and use it to position the stakes. This will help to keep them from bending as you drive them into the ground. You only need a single piece. Also, don't cut the ends of your stakes to be sharp unless you have really, really rocky soil. I did that the first time, and they're much harder to drive in straight with a tapered end as compared to a blunt end.

 

[blueKYstream]

Thanks Knehrke! I think I may have read a thread where you had said to not cut them at an angle, so I cut them straight (as you can see in the last picture). I still have to get the aluminum screen/wire mesh (or whatever) for pear trees as well as the pipe to keep it straight like you mention. Do you just buy a straight 4' pvc pipe (I'd guess 1" would work) with no end or do you cap it with something? I know the sales rep said to use steel pipe with a fitting on top. That seems like overkill to me, but clay soil can be tough so I don't know.

 

[Northbound]

I put the tree tubes with vent holes down. Helps the tree harden off in fall and prevents mildew issues. Downfall is this puts the zip tie to high for a 5' stake. I just poke new holes at whatever height I end up driving stake to

Most people see my holes at bottom and pvc stake inside of tube and say I'm wrong. I very well might be wrong but it's worked well for me compared to some I've done some the 'right' way. For what it's worth- The guys running holes on top are the first to hate on using tubes for fruit trees.

Many ways to skin a cat, just find the way that works for you

 

[blueKYstream]

I put the tree tubes with vent holes down. Helps the tree harden off in fall and prevents mildew issues. Downfall is this puts the zip tie to high for a 5' stake. I just poke new holes at whatever height I end up driving stake to

Most people see my holes at bottom and pvc stake inside of tube and say I'm wrong. I very well might be wrong but it's worked well for me compared to some I've done some the 'right' way. For what it's worth- The guys running holes on top are the first to hate on using tubes for fruit trees.

Many ways to skin a cat, just find the way that works for you

Interesting idea. In theory, I could see it reducing mice girdling the tree (less protection from predators). Of course, you wouldn't want to spray herbicide nearby with residue potentially drifting inside the tubes (not sure whether I'll have to spray with weed mats at this point). I have no experience with trying either way, so I'm open to ideas and hearing what works or doesn't for others.

 

[144]

As far as you can until the top of the PVC is a couple inches above the top zip tie on your tube, which is usually what's limiting (and why I like to use 6' PVC with 5' tubes).

Also, be sure to have a single 4' piece of PVC conduit that is wide enough for your stakes to just fit inside, and use it to position the stakes. This will help to keep them from bending as you drive them into the ground. You only need a single piece. Also, don't cut the ends of your stakes to be sharp unless you have really, really rocky soil. I did that the first time, and they're much harder to drive in straight with a tapered end as compared to a blunt end.

Got to say, that’s a really good point. I had tried pvc stakes before and gave up trying to drive them in because of all the flexing. Ended up going with metallic conduit and it worked better. But never thought to put another pieced pvc over the pvc stake when driving it in. May have to try that in the future.


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[Needmorebrush82]

Interesting idea. In theory, I could see it reducing mice girdling the tree (less protection from predators). Of course, you wouldn't want to spray herbicide nearby with residue potentially drifting inside the tubes (not sure whether I'll have to spray with weed mats at this point). I have no experience with trying either way, so I'm open to ideas and hearing what works or doesn't for others.

And that is why most of us put the solid part of the tube at the ground. Drive by and spray roundup around the tube in a hurry without nuking your tree. The miracle tubes you are using has really cut down on the rodent issue for me being that they just sit on the surface and you don't bury them at the ground like some tubes. Mice and other creatures don't enjoy a moist place with a draft. My other issue would be enhancing the chimney effect if you put the vents at the bottom. Might not be a big issue if your summers are not 100 degree days or close to it for several months. My poor trees are in for a fight for their lives the first year in a tube with supplemental water once a week. As far as ow deep to set the post I aim for a foot deep. Honestly in wide open areas I will use a tpost because the fact is 70mph+ winds are guaranteed every spring with storms. I have a ton of the pvc posts on the ground too and they work well for general purpose mass plantings. If a storm comes through and the ground softens go check them. Native nurseries posted a good idea to drive the little posts with a steel pipe cut off to the length you want to drive the post. It's just a simple piece of steel pipe with a cap screwed on it so that each post goes straight every time and to the right depth without guessing.

 

[Northbound]

And that is why most of us put the solid part of the tube at the ground. Drive by and spray roundup around the tube in a hurry without nuking your tree. The miracle tubes you are using has really cut down on the rodent issue for me being that they just sit on the surface and you don't bury them at the ground like some tubes. Mice and other creatures don't enjoy a moist place with a draft. My other issue would be enhancing the chimney effect if you put the vents at the bottom. Might not be a big issue if your summers are not 100 degree days or close to it for several months. My poor trees are in for a fight for their lives the first year in a tube with supplemental water once a week. As far as ow deep to set the post I aim for a foot deep. Honestly in wide open areas I will use a tpost because the fact is 70mph+ winds are guaranteed every spring with storms. I have a ton of the pvc posts on the ground too and they work well for general purpose mass plantings. If a storm comes through and the ground softens go check them. Native nurseries posted a good idea to drive the little posts with a steel pipe cut off to the length you want to drive the post. It's just a simple piece of steel pipe with a cap screwed on it so that each post goes straight every time and to the right depth without guessing.

I am a sloppy spray applicator. Always in a hurry and I am amazed I haven't killed any trees with gly floating into the little vent holes. Maybe I get lucky and it only hits the trunk and nothing green.

That's something I've never considered the draft idea. I've always tried to get bottom of tube slightly into soil or I toss a couple shovels of manure/ mulch around to keep mice out. I may have to try the draft technique on a few this year

 

[Needmorebrush82]

I am a sloppy spray applicator. Always in a hurry and I am amazed I haven't killed any trees with gly floating into the little vent holes. Maybe I get lucky and it only hits the trunk and nothing green.

That's something I've never considered the draft idea. I've always tried to get bottom of tube slightly into soil or I toss a couple shovels of manure/ mulch around to keep mice out. I may have to try the draft technique on a few this year

If I seal mine off at the ground that tree is a goner!

 

[blueKYstream]

If I seal mine off at the ground that tree is a goner!

What zone are you in? There's years in zone 6 where we can hit 100 quite a bit and other years where it might only hit it once or twice (although humidity makes it feel like it more often hits 100). Not sure if tubes are just not as suitable for the far south.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Draft idea did not work well for me. I put vents at top like they advise. Years ago read advice about leaving a couple inches gap to ground to discourage mice with the whole draft idea. Sucked, think it just gave them easy access into the tube. Next theory to try was bury tube slightly in ground, no easy access. That did work somewhat better but not great. Finally just went to alum screen in all tubes and with cages. Now this was mostly with oaks that kinda have bigger leaves and tend to clog tubes up if not cleaned out and make ready made mouse nesting spots. So I pulled tubes off yearly to get rid of leaves inside but that only works until tree grows beyond tube and branches enough that cant get the tube off. Tubes kinda suck in some respects but they do accel growth to get central leader quickly above deer browse height. Plus bought a crapload for quantity discount and still have maybe 50-70 left to use.

 

[yoderjac]

If I seal mine off at the ground that tree is a goner!

In the old days when tree tubes first came out, they were narrow and did not have good ventilation. There were problems on both ends of the spectrum. If you sealed the tube to the ground, during wet periods the tube created conditions good for fungi, mold, and disease. If you did not seal the tube to the ground (elevated it), as heat built up in the tube, it would cause a chimney effect and the tree would often dry out and die.

With modern tubes that are larger diameter and vented, these issues have been greatly reduced, but not eliminated. In certain climates and micro climates, tubes can still contribute to both of these depending on how they are used.

For most folks in most conditions, the tube should be sealed to the ground (dirt up around the bottom of the tube) tubes should be fairly evenly vented over the height and diameter of the tube. The idea is for the tube to create somewhat of a greenhouse effect but not so much as to hurt the tree. Think of a green house. In the operator needs to open/close vents to maintain the right temperature range. They also want to elevate the humidity but have good air flow. This is usually accomplished with sprinklers and fans. A tree tube is attempting accomplish the same thing but does not have active controls.

I find, with some trees in some locations, tubes are the only cost effective means of protection. In some cases they seem to help my trees and in some cases hurt them. It really depens on the circumstances. Overall, because of the protective value, they are a net plus. If I could afford the time and cost of caging every tree, I would go that route.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Draft idea did not work well for me. I put vents at top like they advise. Years ago read advice about leaving a couple inches gap to ground to discourage mice with the whole draft idea. Sucked, think it just gave them easy access into the tube. Next theory to try was bury tube slightly in ground, no easy access. That did work somewhat better but not great. Finally just went to alum screen in all tubes and with cages. Now this was mostly with oaks that kinda have bigger leaves and tend to clog tubes up if not cleaned out and make ready made mouse nesting spots. So I pulled tubes off yearly to get rid of leaves inside but that only works until tree grows beyond tube and branches enough that cant get the tube off. Tubes kinda suck in some respects but they do accel growth to get central leader quickly above deer browse height. Plus bought a crapload for quantity discount and still have maybe 50-70 left to use.

The best way I have found to discourage rodents is to use landscaping cloth covered by quarry stone as mulch. You can use the stone to build up slightly around the bottom of the tube. I found organic much needed to be replaced frequently and rodents liked it. The stone is permanent.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[rocksnstumps]

Jac

I find that simple stapling some window screen on is quick to do, cheap, and rather effective. The whole landscape fabric and gravel thing sounds like a lot of screwing around and frankly reminds me too much of some suburban front lawn with landscaping. Ten years from now I don't wanna see a bunch of gravel patches in my "new woods". Screen works rather well and have been doing over ten years with good enough results for me. To each their own

 

[yoderjac]

Jac

I find that simple stapling some window screen on is quick to do, cheap, and rather effective. The whole landscape fabric and gravel thing sounds like a lot of screwing around and frankly reminds me too much of some suburban front lawn with landscaping. Ten years from now I don't wanna see a bunch of gravel patches in my "new woods". Screen works rather well and have been doing over ten years with good enough results for me. To each their own

There are other benefits beyond the rodent discouragement. The landscaping material with stone provides weed control for many years. There are studies that show that removing competition for the first 5' around a young tree can make a pretty dramatic increase in growth.

I'm not suggesting it is a solution for you in particular. Just offering folks alternatives. By the way, it doesn't take more than a year or so and I can't even see the stone. Weeds rooted outside the landscaping material will quickly grow over the stone to reach more sun. Window screen can be very effective at deterring rodents, but it only does that. I originally did the mulch approach using organic mulch for the benefit of weed control. I quickly learned the stone solved two issues. It did not attract rodents and it is permanent and doesn't break down and need replaced.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Northbound]

I'm gonna try a few tubes up off ground a bit with the draft thing. I have a feeling mice will girdle the tree in my area same as a unprotected tree but I like to experiment with things.

The recent posts about heat build up with a buried tube makes me think some of you should experiment with a few tubes placed upside-down to have vent holes on bottom?

 

[Needmorebrush82]

I'm gonna try a few tubes up off ground a bit with the draft thing. I have a feeling mice will girdle the tree in my area same as a unprotected tree but I like to experiment with things.

The recent posts about heat build up with a buried tube makes me think some of you should experiment with a few tubes placed upside-down to have vent holes on bottom?

When I mentioned draft I am not lifting the tube up by any means. I am simply letting the miracle tube rest on the ground and not burying it like you would on other tubes. I find the rolled edge at the bottom forms enough of a barrier to hold a lot of the moisture which is vital yet just enough draft to make it a not so cozy house for the little creeps.