Food plots vs thickets
- Thread starter chummer
- Start date
chummer
5 year old buck +
I agree. I think the first thing to do is get a handle on how many deer are there during summer and fall. The thickets would be a preferred browse so with lower deer numbers it would act as a thicket and a plot.
chummer
5 year old buck +
The problem is when the snow comes it comes in feet. Until Lake Ontario cools the snow piles up fast.
Greta&Gus
5 year old buck +
Regardless if you add cover or food you are going to increase the likelihood of deer wanting to stay on your property for longer periods of time. In the end, I would be focusing on improving your chance to kill a buck in the fall and not be as concerned with them getting trapped in the snow. There are some things you can't control.
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Nice thread chummer, glad to hear this is finally coming together. I saw this yesterday when I got home and it apparently blew up last evening, wow! Tons of good thoughts so far, not much more I could add, most of what I would do has been mentioned by someone or another already. I wouldn't compare this to your other land 10 miles away, these are different deer your dealing with on this parcel, so all bets are off. I did give some thought to what I would do specifically. To answer your initial question with only one choice, keep the open areas in plots, especially since you already have an area that you are considering for sanctuary.
1.) Don't worry about the deer staying too late on your place in the late fall/early winter, the deer in your area have been dealing with those snowfalls for eons and they will not "forget" when to leave just for a few extra mouthfuls of some brassicas and clover, it is just not going to happen.
2.) I like your thoughts on the orchard, and you obviously know that area better than any of us, but I remember the topo map from when you first posted on your new purchase. Be very careful about putting the orchard in that ravine, the cold air traveling downhill could very well frost out all the apple blossoms in most years. I would take that into consideration when choosing the orchard location or at least the apple varieties, maybe late bloomers would be the best choice if you are set on putting the orchard in that area?
3.) As a few others have stated, I would concentrate all efforts into holding as many deer on the place from spring thaw until the end of the hunting season, beyond that, they are going to do what they want anyway. Thicken up some of the non-cleared areas to increase fawning cover as much as possible. Some conifer bedding areas on the south facing slopes of that ravine. Tons of summer and early fall foods. Deer candy plantings. Sunflowers, forage soybeans, oats and rye, clover, chicory, AWP, pumpkins, high leaf ratio hybrid brasscias(don't worry about getting ones that produce root bulbs, you will not need them) and any shrubs that they love to browse. Since they are gone in the winter and until snowmelt, they will likely not be able to destroy your shrub plantings during the summer months, due to tons of other browse being readily available. Encourage soft mast producing trees/shrubs and berry canes in areas they will thrive. Not sure how many hard mast trees you have, but I would be planting some of the faster growing/bearing species and hybrid oaks, in huntable locations of course. Swamp whites and Schutte's oaks near that beaver pond or near the stream bottoms, bur and Bebb's oaks on the higher ground.
4.) Next would be to direct movements to make those deer as huntable as possible. Hinge cutting some "sidewalk" areas between bedding and food would be a good start. Directing plot access points with piles of brush and hinges around the plot perimeters. Same way at waterholes, direct movement to within bow range using dropped trees along the trail to direct them past the water source. you may not be able to shoot does, but the bucks will certainly follow them into the plots, controlling huntable access points will help you predict those movements.
5.) Do whatever you need to provide yourself with undetectable stand access, it won't matter how many deer you try to hold or how you direct their movements if they know you are hunting them and become nocturnal. Perimeter trails for stand access that are screened or hidden by narrow shrub plantings or hinge cuts, do not make the screen wide enough to bed in or near. Good luck!
1.) Don't worry about the deer staying too late on your place in the late fall/early winter, the deer in your area have been dealing with those snowfalls for eons and they will not "forget" when to leave just for a few extra mouthfuls of some brassicas and clover, it is just not going to happen.
2.) I like your thoughts on the orchard, and you obviously know that area better than any of us, but I remember the topo map from when you first posted on your new purchase. Be very careful about putting the orchard in that ravine, the cold air traveling downhill could very well frost out all the apple blossoms in most years. I would take that into consideration when choosing the orchard location or at least the apple varieties, maybe late bloomers would be the best choice if you are set on putting the orchard in that area?
3.) As a few others have stated, I would concentrate all efforts into holding as many deer on the place from spring thaw until the end of the hunting season, beyond that, they are going to do what they want anyway. Thicken up some of the non-cleared areas to increase fawning cover as much as possible. Some conifer bedding areas on the south facing slopes of that ravine. Tons of summer and early fall foods. Deer candy plantings. Sunflowers, forage soybeans, oats and rye, clover, chicory, AWP, pumpkins, high leaf ratio hybrid brasscias(don't worry about getting ones that produce root bulbs, you will not need them) and any shrubs that they love to browse. Since they are gone in the winter and until snowmelt, they will likely not be able to destroy your shrub plantings during the summer months, due to tons of other browse being readily available. Encourage soft mast producing trees/shrubs and berry canes in areas they will thrive. Not sure how many hard mast trees you have, but I would be planting some of the faster growing/bearing species and hybrid oaks, in huntable locations of course. Swamp whites and Schutte's oaks near that beaver pond or near the stream bottoms, bur and Bebb's oaks on the higher ground.
4.) Next would be to direct movements to make those deer as huntable as possible. Hinge cutting some "sidewalk" areas between bedding and food would be a good start. Directing plot access points with piles of brush and hinges around the plot perimeters. Same way at waterholes, direct movement to within bow range using dropped trees along the trail to direct them past the water source. you may not be able to shoot does, but the bucks will certainly follow them into the plots, controlling huntable access points will help you predict those movements.
5.) Do whatever you need to provide yourself with undetectable stand access, it won't matter how many deer you try to hold or how you direct their movements if they know you are hunting them and become nocturnal. Perimeter trails for stand access that are screened or hidden by narrow shrub plantings or hinge cuts, do not make the screen wide enough to bed in or near. Good luck!
bowhunternw
5 year old buck +
I am a big fan of diversity, maybe leave one open grass with a few apples on one end, one for solid food plots and one for a thicket type cover. Try to create something you don't already have.
chummer
5 year old buck +
Thanks for all the replies. So much to consider. In reality anything I do will help because this kind of habitat management is just not done in my area. There is definitely nothing being done on the 11k acres of state land.
Whip, good point in the ravine and the potential for a frost pocket. I will keep the upper tier for apples and put clover down below. That will make an awesome stand site with the stream at the bottom, even if I dont see a deer.
Whip, good point in the ravine and the potential for a frost pocket. I will keep the upper tier for apples and put clover down below. That will make an awesome stand site with the stream at the bottom, even if I dont see a deer.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
That is a very well written and well thought out post, whip!
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Thanks bur. A bit long winded maybe, but that's just me I guess.
chummer
5 year old buck +
Not long winded at all. I always appreciate your posts. I can't wait until their is the "Whip land tour" thread.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
I'd keep the apples up on higher ground for good air drainage - colder air sinks. I agree with Whip on staying out of the ravine with the apples. Clover down lower makes sense from the fact that most clovers like moist soil. Near a stream would be more moist than possibly a hilltop in the sun. At my camp the clover is thickest and the most lush near springs.
Whip has a good blanket post. Lots of good suggestions from the other guys as well. Your observations are key to the whole picture there. It may take a year or 3 to see what works - best - and what works to a lesser degree or is not worth doing. That'll be part of the fun of doing all this. I think someone else posted that it may take a little time for the deer to
" find " your plantings and start to make use of them. If they never had some of the things you NOW provide, give them time to adjust to having good food / cover / browse right at hand where it didn't exist before. Like some of the guys said above ... " give 'em what they don't have. " You'll do fine. Half the battle is being " into it. " You ARE !!!:)
Whip has a good blanket post. Lots of good suggestions from the other guys as well. Your observations are key to the whole picture there. It may take a year or 3 to see what works - best - and what works to a lesser degree or is not worth doing. That'll be part of the fun of doing all this. I think someone else posted that it may take a little time for the deer to
" find " your plantings and start to make use of them. If they never had some of the things you NOW provide, give them time to adjust to having good food / cover / browse right at hand where it didn't exist before. Like some of the guys said above ... " give 'em what they don't have. " You'll do fine. Half the battle is being " into it. " You ARE !!!:)
phil@thesidehill
5 year old buck +
if i had to choose just one of the two based on your description and observations i would say hands down get the food on the table. Lots of great advice from everyone else, and i think Whip nailed it big time. Those deer are not gonna stick around and get caught out when that tug hill snow starts to fly....it is so hardwired into them to leave for yarding areas every winter I seriously doubt you will see them trying to cling to life around a couple of food plots that are burried in 400" of snow....so i wouldnt be too worried about having food on the table into the winter...which will and diversify the types of plantings you can offer.
Like BJE pointed out keeping highly attractive and nutritious food on the table during the entire length of time the deer are in the area is going to focus doe groups on your food and build habitual daily patterns of movement...which will bring the bucks in once the rut starts rolling. i think that with a situation like you have described (no doe hunting) the BEST possible way to attract bucks is with rut bait...does....food can work in the early season...but i feel that it takes a pretty air tight property set up to consistently get bucks (mature bucks anyway) on an early season/pre rut exploitable pattern....which i feel is often times more likely on bigger properties where bucks have more room to spread out and get away from the ladies. this property is 60-70 acres right? In terms of going the rut bait route...you will most likely see more bucks as they cycle through in waves seeking, cruising, chasing and locking down with your does...versus honing in on the fewer early season bucks that might be keying in on your food during the early season/pre rut.
I feel that alot of small parcels (with exceptions of course) can be set up best to keep doe groups happy all year, versus trying to get them set up to house bucks through out the year. Like i said there are certainly small tracts that are exceptions and produce bucks consistently out side the rut.....but i think the small parcel game is best suited to being set up as "rut traps" with "rut bait". I think that the chaos of the rut can be "orchestrated" to an extent through habitat manipulation. If you can set up the property to effective exploit rutting buck tendencies and keep it highly attractive to does year round and especially during the rut you can have phenomenal buck hunting. to me it boils down to 3 parts.
1) happy does year round (or spring, summer, fall in Chummer's case)....appropriate bedding cover, attractive and nutritious food sources, fawning cover, water, low pressure/stress/disturbance. This will help build more predictable doe patterns.
2) make the place as attractive as possible for does especially during the rut.
3) make the place as exploitable/huntable as possible during the rut.
I'm working on a micro scale with my little 10 acre property so i'm not holding any deer at all, any time of the year. I had the fortune of hunting this property for several years before i ever really thought about habitat management. I had a pretty solid idea of what the local deer were doing and not doing on my property and how they used the neighboring properties before i did any improvements. From those years of observation I knew that bucks in general did not frequent my property or even "my" side of the hill outside the rut. My side of the hill has always been traditional doe bedding areas. I then realized i needed a reason to have the does use my property during day light hours during the rut....and it couldnt be bedding because it would be too difficult to get in and out without being busted. I needed them to come in and then leave...so i chose a small 1/3 acre "hunting plot". I then needed to get dialed into what to plant to get the does to come to it during the rut, i then realized that if i had food available year round i could create a more habitual daily pattern of does feeding in my plot and bedding in the cover closest to my property but on the neighbors. I then realized if i directed movement too and from the plot i could exploit that movement from a hunting perspective. I can honestly say since i adopted this "rut bait/rut trap" strategy my hunting quality has dramatically improved and i have shot 2 bucks and missed another in the last 2 yrs, and have had drawn my bow or had shooters in bow range without a shot opp for the last 4 yrs. Thats more than the previous 6 yrs combined.
Like BJE pointed out keeping highly attractive and nutritious food on the table during the entire length of time the deer are in the area is going to focus doe groups on your food and build habitual daily patterns of movement...which will bring the bucks in once the rut starts rolling. i think that with a situation like you have described (no doe hunting) the BEST possible way to attract bucks is with rut bait...does....food can work in the early season...but i feel that it takes a pretty air tight property set up to consistently get bucks (mature bucks anyway) on an early season/pre rut exploitable pattern....which i feel is often times more likely on bigger properties where bucks have more room to spread out and get away from the ladies. this property is 60-70 acres right? In terms of going the rut bait route...you will most likely see more bucks as they cycle through in waves seeking, cruising, chasing and locking down with your does...versus honing in on the fewer early season bucks that might be keying in on your food during the early season/pre rut.
I feel that alot of small parcels (with exceptions of course) can be set up best to keep doe groups happy all year, versus trying to get them set up to house bucks through out the year. Like i said there are certainly small tracts that are exceptions and produce bucks consistently out side the rut.....but i think the small parcel game is best suited to being set up as "rut traps" with "rut bait". I think that the chaos of the rut can be "orchestrated" to an extent through habitat manipulation. If you can set up the property to effective exploit rutting buck tendencies and keep it highly attractive to does year round and especially during the rut you can have phenomenal buck hunting. to me it boils down to 3 parts.
1) happy does year round (or spring, summer, fall in Chummer's case)....appropriate bedding cover, attractive and nutritious food sources, fawning cover, water, low pressure/stress/disturbance. This will help build more predictable doe patterns.
2) make the place as attractive as possible for does especially during the rut.
3) make the place as exploitable/huntable as possible during the rut.
I'm working on a micro scale with my little 10 acre property so i'm not holding any deer at all, any time of the year. I had the fortune of hunting this property for several years before i ever really thought about habitat management. I had a pretty solid idea of what the local deer were doing and not doing on my property and how they used the neighboring properties before i did any improvements. From those years of observation I knew that bucks in general did not frequent my property or even "my" side of the hill outside the rut. My side of the hill has always been traditional doe bedding areas. I then realized i needed a reason to have the does use my property during day light hours during the rut....and it couldnt be bedding because it would be too difficult to get in and out without being busted. I needed them to come in and then leave...so i chose a small 1/3 acre "hunting plot". I then needed to get dialed into what to plant to get the does to come to it during the rut, i then realized that if i had food available year round i could create a more habitual daily pattern of does feeding in my plot and bedding in the cover closest to my property but on the neighbors. I then realized if i directed movement too and from the plot i could exploit that movement from a hunting perspective. I can honestly say since i adopted this "rut bait/rut trap" strategy my hunting quality has dramatically improved and i have shot 2 bucks and missed another in the last 2 yrs, and have had drawn my bow or had shooters in bow range without a shot opp for the last 4 yrs. Thats more than the previous 6 yrs combined.
chummer
5 year old buck +
I would love to plant oaks but I have no confidence they will make it. I planted some SWO from MDC three years ago. They are still alive but just don't grow. This year a late frost turned their leaves black and they had to start all over. There is probably a reason there are no native oaks within miles of me. I think I will be planting spruce and dogwoods from MDC. I have great success with the dogwoods.
chummer
5 year old buck +
I like your plan Phil. Since I won't be at the land a lot I really only care that the bucks sho when it matters.
wiscwhip
5 year old buck +
Oaks as a species are highly site specific growers, especially swamp white oaks, I would consider them maybe worse than some of the other oak species. Ones grown from stock in Missouri may not make it in the northern areas, or will struggle greatly, much like what you are seeing. This is one of the reasons I am not sold on the Mossy Oak Nursery stock in northern areas, I believe it is all grown in Mississippi. Provenance of the acorns is a big deal IMO. Find a northern source for your acorns before you plant any more.
