Existing thick pasture stand to food plot how to?

RE Green Cover's smart mix Calculator - It seems like it just runs simple calcs of the % of full rate? 2 seeds: seed each @ 63% of the full rate. 3 seeds: seed each at 42% of full rate. 4 seeds: Seed each @ 31% of full rate, etc. While it's nice that it does that for you, it seems like something that'd be very easy to duplicate. Am I missing something?
 
RE Green Cover's smart mix Calculator - It seems like it just runs simple calcs of the % of full rate? 2 seeds: seed each @ 63% of the full rate. 3 seeds: seed each at 42% of full rate. 4 seeds: Seed each @ 31% of full rate, etc. While it's nice that it does that for you, it seems like something that'd be very easy to duplicate. Am I missing something?
I think so. The number of seeds in the total mix is important....and I don't think this math model accounts for that.
 
I think so. The number of seeds in the total mix is important....and I don't think this math model accounts for that.
To make sure we're on the same page, are you saying the math model doesn't account for it and Green Cover Seed's smartmix does?

Because in smartmix I can create a mix of all 4 cereals or a mix of all small seeds and no matter what that mix of 4 seeds allocates 31% of the full rate (I.E. recommended monoculture rate for each seed) to each in the mix. So as long as you have a full rate weight for each seed, the calculation should be the same if hand calculated or used in smartmix.
 
To make sure we're on the same page, are you saying the math model doesn't account for it and Green Cover Seed's smartmix does?

Because in smartmix I can create a mix of all 4 cereals or a mix of all small seeds and no matter what that mix of 4 seeds allocates 31% of the full rate (I.E. recommended monoculture rate for each seed) to each in the mix. So as long as you have a full rate weight for each seed, the calculation should be the same if hand calculated or used in smartmix.
I dont know if your response is accurate or not. But you would have a higher quantity of wheat than oat seeds for example given equal weights. So......I wonder if that is factored in?

Same could be said if using a legume like soybeans vs clover seeds. Equal weights are not going to yield a similar result.....IMO. Or, am I missing something?

^ Kinda where I was going recently in another thread. I was trying to find the numbers of seeds in a pound so that I could factor the seed count into a mix. Overthinking? I dunno. I think we need a farmer or an agronomist to respond here......lol.
 
Seems like Most farmers plant one crop at a time for harvest. Ones I have talked to didn’t know much about mixes. I imagine they buy and mix their cover crops about like we do.
 
I dont know if your response is accurate or not. But you would have a higher quantity of wheat than oat seeds for example given equal weights. So......I wonder if that is factored in?

Same could be said if using a legume like soybeans vs clover seeds. Equal weights are not going to yield a similar result.....IMO. Or, am I missing something?

^ Kinda where I was going recently in another thread. I was trying to find the numbers of seeds in a pound so that I could factor the seed count into a mix. Overthinking? I dunno. I think we need a farmer or an agronomist to respond here......lol.

You're confusing seed % of the total blend like is shown on a seed tag with what i'm saying appears to be Green cover's method of calculating how much seed to use in a blend by using a constant percentage of each seed's full rate (Full rate=seeding weight in #/acre if planted as a monoculture). The cumulative %s of full rate for each seed exceed 100%.

Seeds/# is more complicated and confusing to me than just looking at % of full rate especially since different seeds have different ideal seed populations and respond to browsing and competition differently.

Pictures are easier than words.. note how Oats and Wheat are at different weights but the same % of full rate in the clip below.

GCS.png
 
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You're confusing seed % of the total blend like is shown on a seed tag with what i'm saying appears to be Green cover's method of calculating a how much seed to use in a blend by using a constant percentage of each seed's full rate (Full rate=seeding weight in #/acre if planted as a monoculture) when used in a blend.

Seeds/# is more complicated and confusing to me than just looking at % of full rate especially since different seeds have different ideal seed populations and respond to browsing and competition differently.

Pictures are easier than words.. note how Oats and Wheat are at different weights but the same % of full rate in the clip below.

View attachment 54487
Maybe....FWIW.....I am attaching a chart I found on seed counts. I gotta run....would like to discuss this. seed count.png
 
All I'm sayin is it appears the GCS smartmix calculator does nothing more than apply a given % to the full rate of each seed in a blend and said % is decided solely by the # of different species included in the blend. So it'd be easy to do the same thing without the calculator or with seeds GCS does not sell.
 
I dont know if your response is accurate or not. But you would have a higher quantity of wheat than oat seeds for example given equal weights. So......I wonder if that is factored in?

Same could be said if using a legume like soybeans vs clover seeds. Equal weights are not going to yield a similar result.....IMO. Or, am I missing something?

^ Kinda where I was going recently in another thread. I was trying to find the numbers of seeds in a pound so that I could factor the seed count into a mix. Overthinking? I dunno. I think we need a farmer or an agronomist to respond here......lol.
To get down into the fine points - where there are no definitive answers - I think what we need to think about is the desired final plant population per acre. Again, down in the weeds, there's no limit to the amount of total pounds of seed that can be seeded but there is a limit to how many plants of a particular species and/or variety a given area of cropland can support.

Soybean seed, I think, is a good example. We might start with a goal of (and there's much debate about the optimum) 130,000 plants per acre. Buy a bag of soybean seed and your are buying a certain number of seeds - not weight. At the end, a scale -- a weight--would be handy to measure the initial amount of seed to put in the planter box.

Moving on to mixes of different seeds, a grass (wheat, oats, corn, rye) takes up much less growing space than would a leafy broadleaf like turnips. What that means, practically, I don't know except to say it's a consideration. And, seed size - number of seeds per pound - isn't always consistent. So, we enter a little plant population forethought into creating mixes and then we just mix and hope for the best.

A pre-calculated formula like the one found at the seed company in question is filled with lot's of unstated assumptions. They are probably adequate assumptions and will keep you in the ballpark, but it would be better (somehow and by how much I do not know) to do you own calculations based on your desired outcome.

I'm on a short leash this afternoon. Without explanation - Suppose this fall I want to plant a mix of rye (grain), radish and chicory for fall attraction. Add to it ladino clover, not for this fall, but as a perennial for the coming year. Further I want my fall plant population to be 20% radish and 20% chicory with the rest rye (60%). Using some of the info in Foggy's table and adding some additional, here's what we do.
Variety of SeedDesired Population (%)Seeds PER lbSeeds In MixMonoculture Planting Rate (lbs/acre)Mix Weight (lbs)Percent Total Weight
Chicory20%426,000426,000511.7%
Clover, Ladino80%768,0003,072,000546.7%
Radish20%39,00039,000511.7%
Rye, Grain60%18,000972,000905490.0%
TOTAL180%60100.0%

What the actual outcome, so far as plant population is concerned is still a the whims of other factors including the validity of Seeds-per-point, actual germination rates, soil productivity, etc.
 
All I'm sayin is it appears the GCS smartmix calculator does nothing more than apply a given % to the full rate of each seed in a blend and said % is decided solely by the # of different species included in the blend. So it'd be easy to do the same thing without the calculator or with seeds GCS does not sell.
I get what your saying Wind Gypsy. There is no "magic" to what the ratio of each seed is in each blend. Looks like they are shooting for a total seeding rate of about 125% of a monoculture. So 2 species in a blend, each get an even amount of at 63% of their respective monoculture seed rates. Example: A mix of radish and oats. Radish is 8lbs per acre for mono culture, so they are incorporating 8lbs*0.63 = 5.04lbs in the mix and Oats are 80lbs per acre mono culture, so they are incorporating 80lbs*0.63 = 50.4 lbs in the mix. By using this method, you are in theory getting 50% of your plot covered in radish and 50% of your plot covered in oats.

The blend you want may not always be 50/50 or 42/42/42 and so on. You may want the ratio higher of some varieties than others depending on the situation.
 
So got the plot done yesterday…brush hogged as low as possible then seeded a couple kinds of red clover, some ladino and alsike and a brassica mix then sprayed with gly…it rained pretty hard about 2 hours later but I think it will be alright. A little concerned about the thatch thickness with seed to soil contact but hoping the gly was still able to hit the majority of the stuff and that the small seeds will work their way down with the aid of some of the downpours we have been getting…updates to follow
Before/thatch pics
68FFDDCB-9E64-45FB-89F6-91D7E2C3B21D.jpeg6B8045F2-CCDF-4F74-A4BD-AAA353478AC5.jpeg
After pics
CE3C1749-4E01-49D4-98D6-EC75E1E1241E.jpeg730E9FAF-8FD5-4670-8032-2D895523A9BC.jpeg
 
So got the plot done yesterday…brush hogged as low as possible then seeded a couple kinds of red clover, some ladino and alsike and a brassica mix then sprayed with gly…it rained pretty hard about 2 hours later but I think it will be alright. A little concerned about the thatch thickness with seed to soil contact but hoping the gly was still able to hit the majority of the stuff and that the small seeds will work their way down with the aid of some of the downpours we have been getting…updates to follow
Before/thatch pics
View attachment 55836View attachment 55837
After pics
View attachment 55838View attachment 55840
Looks good my man
 
I just want to make sure. Throw & Mow. Are we seeding then mowing or vise versa?
I keep seeing both ways.
 
I think it depends on what you're mowing. If it's tall enough I can't get a good even broadcast into it, I'd mow it as tall as I could. Then, I'd broadcast seed and mow again.
 
I just want to make sure. Throw & Mow. Are we seeding then mowing or vise versa?
I keep seeing both ways.
We mowed first cuz I was being a wimp and didnt want to walk through that crap..also only seeded brassica and clover seeds that are pretty small with a hard rain imminent so I figured they would get pushed down by that..wish we woulda mowed a couple weeks ago then let it grow a little then seed and spray
 
Here’s a snapshot of the best brassica in this plot, along with a view of it from the stand I installed yesterday..long and short of it is this plot didn’t work that well, as the “thatch is too thick to broadcast into” crowd was correct..anywhere there was bare-ish ground, there is a nice thick stand of clover and brassicas..everywhere else is forbs and grasses that didn’t get hit quite well enough with the gly..still hopeful this will be a good spot as there are deer in it daily (I think just mowing it helped with that) but for next year will put in more effort ahead of time (thinking at minimum a June light-till or low mow) then at least 2 sprayings to get everything dead dead. For now, good lesson learned and I think with the 100 lbs of rye added (a bushel 2 weeks ago and another bushel yesterday)..this plot will at least be green when the adjacent corn/sorghum is harvested.A0E99B15-004D-4747-9130-1A1FC3D9324B.jpeg8B94EA8D-69A1-4BAB-99F1-47FFD2148EEF.jpeg45A427FF-D471-4F95-AA3E-C85DBD50C780.jpeg
 
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Once you get the hang of how things work it really becomes about biomass management……I started mowing in late June in order to reign in the massive biomass crops I was growing over the summer and make fall planting more manageable
 
Once you get the hang of how things work it really becomes about biomass management……I started mowing in late June in order to reign in the massive biomass crops I was growing over the summer and make fall planting more manageable
What crops are you planting these days, and what rate? Still just broadcasting and mowing? I know you mow several times so not too thick at planting time.
 
Here’s a snapshot of the best brassica in this plot, along with a view of it from the stand I installed yesterday..long and short of it is this plot didn’t work that well, as the “thatch is too thick to broadcast into” crowd was correct..anywhere there was bare-ish ground, there is a nice thick stand of clover and brassicas..everywhere else is forbs and grasses that didn’t get hit quite well enough with the gly..still hopeful this will be a good spot as there are deer in it daily (I think just mowing it helped with that) but for next year will put in more effort ahead of time (thinking at minimum a June light-till or low mow) then at least 2 sprayings to get everything dead dead. For now, good lesson learned and I think with the 100 lbs of rye added (a bushel 2 weeks ago and another bushel yesterday)..this plot will at least be green when the adjacent corn/sorghum is harvested.View attachment 57325View attachment 57326View attachment 57327
I’ve found those seeds stay there and don’t germinate. As thatch thins and you get good rains they will germinate and you’ll have a thick stand.

Throw in mow just doesn’t work like discing. Discing you plant and first rain it all comes up. Throw and mow is much slower and spottier, but will come up and be awesome later on.
 
Im just hoping it comes up before it gets too cold..the rye, admittedly, is a backup plan but there is so little food up there once the crops are gone that anything green should be a draw..I’ve had a crazy experience with broadcasting rye into thick thatch during a drought only to have that plot be thick the next spring..an acre of good rye was holding 20+ turkeys and 25+ deer per day during the spring..
 
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