Existing thick pasture stand to food plot how to?

[omicron1792]

And I didn’t mean the post above as curt.

Multiple discing passes to kill weeds does lots more damage than that. It lets all the water out of the top 6” of soil. It destroys the bacterial and fungal communities that do all the heavy lifting for us. It allows leaching of minerals and runoff to occur.

While herbicides are not perfect, they would reduce or eliminate every negative effect I said above. Long term goal should be to reduce or eliminate herbicides too with proper rotations, crimping, etc. However there is zero doubt in my mind judicious herbicide use trumps heavy discing time and time again.

 

[Foggy47]

^^^Regarding what old-timers would do in the above post. I used to pick up my wife's grandfather from the nursing home when he was well over 100 years old and had been there for nearly 15 years. I'd take him driving in the country so he could looks at crops and remember his farming days. He saw allot of changes as he started farming by plowing with mules back in the day.....and later worked for the local John Deere dealer during the heavy plow and cultivate days. They even used to "wire check" corn in 36" rows when planted, so they could cultivate two ways in a corn field to get rid of weeds. Crazy loss of corn population and yield.....just to control weeds. Farmers would spend the entire summer cultivating their corn fields....and walking bean fields with a hoe to control weeds. Whole family's would regulaly "walk the beans". So it WAS.

Anyway......We were driving around good soybean and corn ground.....which is most of southern MN. One beautiful field of solid seeded soybeans was perhaps 200 or more acres and had absolutely no weeds to see. Very heavy and lush. He remarked on that field as being owned by a good farmer. I asked him why he said that......and he said because that farmer had hoe'd all the weeds from that field. I proceeded to tell him about Round-up and how that could kill the weeds but not the RR Beans. He got really annoyed by this......and said "NO!.....that is a good farmer!!.....and he put allot of work into that field". He had never known about Round-up and how farmers use those chemicals at that time. He was still into his tillage and weeding days.

I left the topic alone and let him enjoy his ride. He could not (and would not) hear what I was saying. Lots of folks remain in that same boat.....and now were going into organic and/or regenerative ag times. It never ends.

 

[FarmerDan]

I need to admit I sometimes roll my eyes and lift my palms to the sky in frustration over some of the debate here. Don't get me wrong. I know it's all well intentioned and I have learned a lot - a lot - from it. To turn soil with plow, disk or harrow, to throw-and-mow, to no-till or minimum till? Frost seed? There's nor right or wrong answer. All are methods to address situations. Sometimes those situations are certain and other times filled with doubt. There's a place for breaking soil and a place to leave it alone. I know mine. It's up to you to know yours. Ask opinions, consider the advice given, and do your thing. Use your tools appropriately. There are trade-offs in all decisions. Win some. Lose some.

 

[omicron1792]

I need to admit I sometimes roll my eyes and lift my palms to the sky in frustration over some of the debate here. Don't get me wrong. I know it's all well intentioned and I have learned a lot - a lot - from it. To turn soil with plow, disk or harrow, to throw-and-mow, to no-till or minimum till? Frost seed? There's nor right or wrong answer. All are methods to address situations. Sometimes those situations are certain and other times filled with doubt. There's a place for breaking soil and a place to leave it alone. I know mine. It's up to you to know yours. Ask opinions, consider the advice given, and do your thing. Use your tools appropriately. There are trade-offs in all decisions. Win some. Lose some.

Wouldn’t you also say this is the perfect place to have those debates?

 

[Telemark]

Wouldn’t you also say this is the perfect place to have those debates?

I, for one, would say exactly that.

 

[FarmerDan]

Wouldn’t you also say this is the perfect place to have those debates?

Yes but, respectfully, it was your assertion, carefully worded, that multiple disk passes do more damage...however you continued...that raised my whatever it raised. You might be right and 30-years ago I'd have been marching in the same parade. But, now, having watched and participated in many parades I'm more open to consideration of many means of production, be it for commercial use or food plots. By the way, I enjoy the conversation and find myself delighted to challenge lots of commonly held positions only to stimulate some consideration than may not otherwise come about. A lot more to say but I hear the dinner bell! Best wishes!

 

[omicron1792]

Yes but, respectfully, it was your assertion, carefully worded, that multiple disk passes do more damage...however you continued...that raised my whatever it raised. You might be right and 30-years ago I'd have been marching in the same parade. But, now, having watched and participated in many parades I'm more open to consideration of many means of production, be it for commercial use or food plots. By the way, I enjoy the conversation and find myself delighted to challenge lots of commonly held positions only to stimulate some consideration than may not otherwise come about. A lot more to say but I hear the dinner bell! Best wishes!

This wasn’t to break hard pan. This is to convert an old pasture to production.

are you aware of one source that advocates using discing for that purpose over herbicides? I would say most advocate the exact opposite due to deep roots of pasture grass and issues with termination.

It’s obvious you are partial to old farming ways. Great. Read what I said about that. I think that’s awesome.

Converting an old pasture to food plot without using herbicides and using multiple discing passes would be wrong.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I need to admit I sometimes roll my eyes and lift my palms to the sky in frustration over some of the debate here. Don't get me wrong. I know it's all well intentioned and I have learned a lot - a lot - from it. To turn soil with plow, disk or harrow, to throw-and-mow, to no-till or minimum till? Frost seed? There's nor right or wrong answer. All are methods to address situations. Sometimes those situations are certain and other times filled with doubt. There's a place for breaking soil and a place to leave it alone. I know mine. It's up to you to know yours. Ask opinions, consider the advice given, and do your thing. Use your tools appropriately. There are trade-offs in all decisions. Win some. Lose some.

You can roll your eyes and lift your palms all you want......

......as long as you keep posting your thoughts

bill

 

[Angus 1895]

And I didn’t mean the post above as curt.

Multiple discing passes to kill weeds does lots more damage than that. It lets all the water out of the top 6” of soil. It destroys the bacterial and fungal communities that do all the heavy lifting for us. It allows leaching of minerals and runoff to occur.

While herbicides are not perfect, they would reduce or eliminate every negative effect I said above. Long term goal should be to reduce or eliminate herbicides too with proper rotations, crimping, etc. However there is zero doubt in my mind judicious herbicide use trumps heavy discing time and time again.

I am really trying to minimize and reduce my amount of chemicals I use.

I only have about 40 acres I worry about.

an ego strimmer has been a welcome edition.

I also try to think I am only trying to attract game……..not have the blue ribbon of best lawn for the fair

 

[FarmerDan]

This wasn’t to break hard pan. This is to convert an old pasture to production.

are you aware of one source that advocates using discing for that purpose over herbicides? I would say most advocate the exact opposite due to deep roots of pasture grass and issues with termination.

It’s obvious you are partial to old farming ways. Great. Read what I said about that. I think that’s awesome.

Converting an old pasture to food plot without using herbicides and using multiple discing passes would be wrong.

I admit I get really confused about if we're referring specifically to the post's subject or to general ideas expressed and statements made. So I'll just leave it there.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The part that confuses me is farmers have been tilling the same piece of ground for generations and it still produces a crop that is worth their time, energy and money and looks a million times better than anything I can grow. I understand all the negatives that come from breaking ground, especially at scale. But for my little piddly 1/2-2 acre plots is the juice of no till worth the squeeze? Meaning either the likelihood of failure with something like throw and mow or the insane barrier of entry to get a drill. I would love a drill trust me, and it’s on my eventual list but I think we can make success plots with some tillage and not ruin the ecosystem.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The part that confuses me is farmers have been tilling the same piece of ground for generations and it still produces a crop that is worth their time, energy and money and looks a million times better than anything I can grow. I understand all the negatives that come from breaking ground, especially at scale. But for my little piddly 1/2-2 acre plots is the juice of no till worth the squeeze? Meaning either the likelihood of failure with something like throw and mow or the insane barrier of entry to get a drill. I would love a drill trust me, and it’s on my eventual list but I think we can make success plots with some tillage and not ruin the ecosystem.

Interested in what others have to say on this.

For me the draw to NT drilling plots has little to do with protecting the "ecosystem" and more to do with what I perceived to be a more streamlined planting method with guaranteed seed/soil contact. With lots of rocks and marginal soil, digging it up and turning it into a rocks and powder field is not appealing. Less time and fewer trips to the land for tractor work, better chance of soil holding moisture when it's time to plant fall plots in late summer is a good reason. On it's face, the $ i spent on a tractor and drill last year is unjustifiable for the plots acreage planted. But when looking it wasn't hard to see that the lightly used tractors and drills were selling for more than they costed new a few years ago so it feels like a purchase that wont lose significant value over time and wouldn't hurt if a guy didn't need that $ for other necessities. Additional hours in the tractor/fuel $/fertilizer $ is time and money gone forever.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Interested in what others have to say on this.

For me the draw to NT drilling plots has little to do with protecting the "ecosystem" and more to do with what I perceived to be a more streamlined planting method with guaranteed seed/soil contact. With lots of rocks and marginal soil, digging it up and turning it into a rocks and powder field is not appealing. Less time and fewer trips to the land for tractor work, better chance of soil holding moisture when it's time to plant fall plots in late summer is a good reason. On it's face, the $ i spent on a tractor and drill last year is unjustifiable for the plots acreage planted. But when looking it wasn't hard to see that the lightly used tractors and drills were selling for more than they costed new a few years ago so it feels like a purchase that wont lose significant value over time and wouldn't hurt if a guy didn't need that $ for other necessities. Additional hours in the tractor/fuel $/fertilizer $ is time and money gone forever.

100% agree on its efficiencies. Huge reason I want one. But I just think for the guy not wanting to break about $8-$20k on something that gets pulled out of the barn twice a year, tillage is not a 4 letter word. I can only go off of what my eyes see…and there has been generational wealth built off the backs of a disc and fields that produce yields that would make mr grant woods blush. I guess what I’m saying is if it’s good enough for them and their livelihoods it’s good enough for my 3/4 acre wheat plot

 

[omicron1792]

100% agree on its efficiencies. Huge reason I want one. But I just think for the guy not wanting to break about $8-$20k on something that gets pulled out of the barn twice a year, tillage is not a 4 letter word. I can only go off of what my eyes see…and there has been generational wealth built off the backs of a disc and fields that produce yields that would make mr grant woods blush. I guess what I’m saying is if it’s good enough for them and their livelihoods it’s good enough for my 3/4 acre wheat plot

I think that’s overstated.

You must supply copious amounts of amendments to keep tilled ground going. You get runoff and loss of many of those fertilizers filling streams and waterways.

No one doubts you can till the ground and fertilize and irrigate it copiously and get a good crop.

Question is….is that that best, most sustainable way for the land?

I don’t have all the answers. It is also obvious to me that the limiting factor for most of these farmers is up front cost of switching over and not does regenerative ag offer benefit.

 

[Catscratch]

Notill equipment is expensive, tillage requires massive amounts of inputs, and regenerative methods are chancy. Most farmers can't afford to miss a season or 2 due to the learning curve to switch. We all have to find systems that work for us.

My dad had wheat. Disc, drill, fertlize, combine, repeat. Had all his own equipment. After inputs, labor, repairs, and market timing he was happy on the yrs he broke even.

He changed things up. Disc, drill, no inputs, swath and bale, burn stubble, repeat. Way less work, way less input costs, outstanding dove and deer hunting, much more income via selling hay and having enough left over to feed the herd all winter. This system works much better for him, easier and more cost efficient. We all have to find our own. For me I've been doing TnM since the mid 90's. I don't have the same super weed problems the farmer neighbors have as I dont need specialized herbicides to deal with them. It's cheap and it's what I find enjoyable.

 

[Foggy47]

Big draught here this year. My clover has remained green....and I get just enough rainfall to keep it attractive to the critters whom are in it daily. Plus I have good ground water about 4 to 6 feet under the surface here.....so deep rooted stuff like my trees grow quite well here. Weed issues are present....but not a huge deal like when I tilled ground. I got some bull thistles and mullein that I spot spray. Few broadleaves. Just drilled my brassica today.....and if had not terminated my clover via chemicals.....I could have gone mostly chemical free so far. (This...I do like to stay on top of the thistles and tha mullein via spot spraying.)

I'm hoping to mow and / or roller crimp plots next week. Have not mowed any plots or done much plot work until the last two weeks. Kinda neat.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Two acres of disced in the fall clover. Sprayed with 1% gly late spring to clean up some grasses (new to me plot with years of god knows what planted in here), mowed a month ago to remove some sunlight competition of dead grasses and sprayed two weeks ago with cleth and 2-4db. No soil test or amendments. I’ll take it…but I really want a drill! Would be so nice to drill wheat and rye into this in early September.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Two acres of disced in the fall clover. Sprayed with 1% gly late spring to clean up some grasses (new to me plot with years of god knows what planted in here), mowed a month ago to remove some sunlight competition of dead grasses and sprayed two weeks ago with cleth and 2-4db. No soil test or amendments. I’ll take it…but I really want a drill! Would be so nice to drill wheat and rye into this in early September.
View attachment 54444View attachment 54445

Do you typically do tillage the same day you plant? For folks who till, wait for weeds to sprout, spray, then plant; that’d be a real PITA on properties that you don’t live real close to.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Do you typically do tillage the same day you plant? For folks who till, wait for weeds to sprout, spray, then plant; that’d be a real PITA on properties that you don’t live real close to.

I do. I lightly disc, cultipack, broadcast and pack again. In full disclosure though I have two tractors, I’m on one and my dad is on the other so it goes pretty quickly.

I don’t love discing but it’s what I’m currently set up for that makes the most sense. I’m working on getting my plots established as a clover base to where I can just broadcast wheat, rye and more clover into them in the fall and basically eliminate discing. But I feel like for establishment I’m not going to knock the plow!

 

[omicron1792]

I do. I lightly disc, cultipack, broadcast and pack again. In full disclosure though I have two tractors, I’m on one and my dad is on the other so it goes pretty quickly.

I don’t love discing but it’s what I’m currently set up for that makes the most sense. I’m working on getting my plots established as a clover base to where I can just broadcast wheat, rye and more clover into them in the fall and basically eliminate discing. But I feel like for establishment I’m not going to knock the plow!

Which is perfectly fine! I used to do the exact same