Emla 111 vs Bud 118
- Thread starter BobinCt
- Start date
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
In post #4 of this thread back in 2017, I mentioned that I got my info on MM-111 from the head of Penn State's fruit tree dept. via e-mail. He advised me to use MM-111 on our clayish loam soil - and from all indications, he was right at least for our location. Our soil isn't low, soppy, poorly draining, gooey clay - but is a reddish-colored, clayish loam with small stones, and we sit on a flat-topped ridge. All our trees are planted in the same soil conditions. A few B-118 lean - most aren't. But some B-118s aren't very large yet, so maybe they WILL lean once they get taller? I haven't seen ANY MM-111 trees leaning.
I don't know what you guys can conclude from that info - but there it is FWIW.
I don't know what you guys can conclude from that info - but there it is FWIW.
Telemark
5 year old buck +
How long have you had your P18 trees?
DrDirtNap
5 year old buck +
silver_yummies
5 year old buck +
I’ve got a loam soil so that must be middle of the pack and pretty good soil?? I have a mix of P18, B118, and MM111 and all are fine so far. I’m only 4 years into this adventure and have 100 B118 rootstocks in order for this spring so hope it isn’t a mistake down the road.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
I would like B118 better if my trees didn't fall down.
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Mortenson
5 year old buck +
In describing the MM111 on Cummins's new website, they say it's unfortunately not productive. Has anyone found that to be the case? If it's just relatively not productive, could that be a good thing because of reduced limb loads, less need to thin? Or is this yet another wrinkle in searching for the best wildlife apple rootstock.
trampledbyturtles
5 year old buck +
Alrigh now u guys have a me a little concerned.
Only have 2 / 70 trees on b118 at the farm for wildlife so I just let them be.
But I do have 5 / 15 on b118 in the home orchard. They are on lighter loam,
/ gravel. Look ok at the moment.
They are 3 years and under. Sould I be looking at taking them out to avoid headaches later or let them ride.
Only have 2 / 70 trees on b118 at the farm for wildlife so I just let them be.
But I do have 5 / 15 on b118 in the home orchard. They are on lighter loam,
/ gravel. Look ok at the moment.
They are 3 years and under. Sould I be looking at taking them out to avoid headaches later or let them ride.
Keep in mind James Cummins (and others) developed the "G" series of rootstocks and have a vested interest in selling more of them.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
I've got about 15 trees on B118. Three of them have fallen over and two more seem loose in the ground. My solution has been to mound dirt up at the base of the tree and brace it until it can hopefully take root above the B118 roots. This has already worked on one tree. It firmed up over several months and I have been able to remove the brace. I just fixed another one a few days ago, so we will see how that one works.
Native Hunter
5 year old buck +
Diesel5610
5 year old buck +
I am a big Cummins fan but they are very high on the "G" rootstocks as was stated and do push them. I have several ACN trees that are on MM111 that are 20-25 years old and they are and have been very productive. MM111 is a solid rootstock in my experience and they were my preference. My newer trees are a mix of 118, P18, Dolgo, MM111 and Antonovka. Prior to grafting I just bought the variety of apple I was looking for and was relegated to whatever rootstock the nursery used. I have been leaning toward standard trees to try and get a tree that will survive the bears. In reality my older trees on MM111 do fine with the bears, just a matter of them getting old enough to take the bear's abuse.
The opinion on the greatest wildlife rootstock has changed about 3 times since I started doing this it seems. MM111 is a solid choice depending on your soil regardless of which may be the latest and greatest.
Jordan Selsor
5 year old buck +
Thanks for the updated feedback guys!
Maybe the answer to b118 is to prune heavy in their younger years because they put on wood faster than the roots can support??? Similar to Steve I have been putting a thick layer of mulch around mine to give them some support. Also been staking the trees that are rickety
All said an done I will have mm106, mm111, b118, antonovka and dolgo in my home orchard. In 10 years I should know whats best lol
Maybe the answer to b118 is to prune heavy in their younger years because they put on wood faster than the roots can support??? Similar to Steve I have been putting a thick layer of mulch around mine to give them some support. Also been staking the trees that are rickety
All said an done I will have mm106, mm111, b118, antonovka and dolgo in my home orchard. In 10 years I should know whats best lol
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
Cummins take on MM111 comes from a commercial orchard perspective. How many boxes of apples will it produce per acre each year vs the investment? MM111 is not productive by those metrics compared to dwarf rootstocks that quickly produce apples and can be planted at high density and irrigated.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
^^^^ I agree. I was thinking of the commercial angle as well. The commercial orchards need rapid return on investment. Chicken NAILED IT, I believe.
What Diesel5610 said is true too. The trick is to grow the trees big enough ........ quickly enough ........ to survive bear abuse.
What Diesel5610 said is true too. The trick is to grow the trees big enough ........ quickly enough ........ to survive bear abuse.
Apple Junkie
5 year old buck +
^^^^^ ditto Chicken and bows. Also, my understanding is that the Geneva series rootstocks were developed for commercial, high density, supported, orchards. With the exception of the G890, these are not really suitable for wildlife plantings. I don't have any G series rootstocks in the ground. Great posts... influencing my future plans. Thanks.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Update on B-118 .....................
After looking around at camp this spring, the few trees that are leaning are on B-118. I know they do well for some folks in certain soils, but in our clayish-loam soil they seem to have a tendency to lean - at least with some of our trees. The same variety of tree on MM-111 is straight as a flagpole. Same with Antonovka - straight. If any of our trees fail from bear damage, or leaning too far & breaking, or any other reason - I'll replace with Antonovka or P-18 which will grow full-sized trees. MM-111 are fine, but for us are more of a "gap-filler" for earlier fruit production until the Antonovka and P-18 rooted trees start producing. We need the biggest, woodiest trees because we have bears.
We have 5 seedling apple trees that are 8 years in ground from SLN, and I have several seedling trees from Sandbur in pots at home. Bur's seedlings are growing well and I'll plant them next spring 2022 - Good Lord willing and the river doesn't rise.
After looking around at camp this spring, the few trees that are leaning are on B-118. I know they do well for some folks in certain soils, but in our clayish-loam soil they seem to have a tendency to lean - at least with some of our trees. The same variety of tree on MM-111 is straight as a flagpole. Same with Antonovka - straight. If any of our trees fail from bear damage, or leaning too far & breaking, or any other reason - I'll replace with Antonovka or P-18 which will grow full-sized trees. MM-111 are fine, but for us are more of a "gap-filler" for earlier fruit production until the Antonovka and P-18 rooted trees start producing. We need the biggest, woodiest trees because we have bears.
We have 5 seedling apple trees that are 8 years in ground from SLN, and I have several seedling trees from Sandbur in pots at home. Bur's seedlings are growing well and I'll plant them next spring 2022 - Good Lord willing and the river doesn't rise.
