Easiest, most effective way to kill spruce trees

[Bowsnbucks]

^^^^ No problem. We didn't expect that result either, but if the deer like it ……….. we'll take it !!

 

[bornagain62511]

^^^^ Windblock + sun = good deer bedding area. We've found that to be true at our camp.

Bornagain 6251, post #37 - We've planted spruce on our north slopes after logging and we've had good results with deer bedding and cold weather shelter. We didn't expect that because it was the cold north side, but the spruce cut the wind down so much, I guess the deer found it OK there !! Still better on the south / sunny side, but deer are using our north side too. FWIW.

Are these solid stands of spruce you're talking about, and if so how large in area acreage wise? and what kind of spacing between the spruce trees? and how old and/or tall are the spruce? thanks for sharing!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

^^^^ Born - We have a combination of plantings there. There's a line of spruce along a skid trail that angles up from a mountain township road at the edge of our property. Those were planted as a screen to block road shooters. Then there are scattered spruce that we sprinkled throughout the logged area to make some cover and bedding spots. This is on a north-facing slope, and there are also many yellow & black birch saplings from 1/2" dia. up to 4" and 5" diam. birch trees now. There are also some hemlocks there, a few white pines and red maples too. When it was logged, it was about 90% cleared, so we wanted to get evergreens started in there so it wouldn't be another wide-open woods a few years down the road. The logger left some large hemlocks, white pines, and birches for seed purposes. We got good regeneration on all those, plus we planted the spruce seedlings.

That logging was about 24 years ago, and the area is filled in now with a combination of all the trees I mentioned. The line of spruce along the skid trail are about 10 ft. apart - and they're now a solid green "wall" - no view from the township road at all. The other spruce were planted so there were spaces of about 20 to 30 ft. between them. Weeds, briars, shrubs, and some mountain laurel grew in the open spaces. Deer started bedding in there when the spruce were about 4 to 5 ft. tall and have continued to use the area for bedding and cover from cold wind. They also use it for shade in the summer heat. Those spruce are about 20 ft. tall now. But the area is NOT a solid block of spruce, like an umbrella-type situation. We didn't want a monoculture in that logged area, and it's now a good mix of hardwoods & softwoods. That area is about 20 acres.

We did another logging of about 23 acres on another part of the property - south-facing - 4 years ago. Different native trees there on the sunny side - oaks, hickories, red maple, tulip poplar, sugar maple, cherry, and white pine. We also planted Norway and white spruce in that logged area. I planted a couple lines of spruce to create "walkways" for deer to travel along from bedding areas to our food plots and apple trees. We also planted clusters of 3 to 10 spruce for bedding spots all throughout the cut, and caged some of the oak & maple stumps to get stump sprouts growing to help thicken it up. Distances between spruce clusters are anywhere from 20 ft. to around 100 ft. We left the tops in brush piles here and there to protect some spruce seedlings and also any natural seedlings and whips regenerating on their own. The biggest spruce in this cut are about 4 ft. tall now - they are caged. The deer travel is MUCH increased in the new cut.

I hope that gives a picture of what we did, and helps in some way.

 

[bornagain62511]

^^^^ Born - We have a combination of plantings there. There's a line of spruce along a skid trail that angles up from a mountain township road at the edge of our property. Those were planted as a screen to block road shooters. Then there are scattered spruce that we sprinkled throughout the logged area to make some cover and bedding spots. This is on a north-facing slope, and there are also many yellow & black birch saplings from 1/2" dia. up to 4" and 5" diam. birch trees now. There are also some hemlocks there, a few white pines and red maples too. When it was logged, it was about 90% cleared, so we wanted to get evergreens started in there so it wouldn't be another wide-open woods a few years down the road. The logger left some large hemlocks, white pines, and birches for seed purposes. We got good regeneration on all those, plus we planted the spruce seedlings.

That logging was about 24 years ago, and the area is filled in now with a combination of all the trees I mentioned. The line of spruce along the skid trail are about 10 ft. apart - and they're now a solid green "wall" - no view from the township road at all. The other spruce were planted so there were spaces of about 20 to 30 ft. between them. Weeds, briars, shrubs, and some mountain laurel grew in the open spaces. Deer started bedding in there when the spruce were about 4 to 5 ft. tall and have continued to use the area for bedding and cover from cold wind. They also use it for shade in the summer heat. Those spruce are about 20 ft. tall now. But the area is NOT a solid block of spruce, like an umbrella-type situation. We didn't want a monoculture in that logged area, and it's now a good mix of hardwoods & softwoods. That area is about 20 acres.

We did another logging of about 23 acres on another part of the property - south-facing - 4 years ago. Different native trees there on the sunny side - oaks, hickories, red maple, tulip poplar, sugar maple, cherry, and white pine. We also planted Norway and white spruce in that logged area. I planted a couple lines of spruce to create "walkways" for deer to travel along from bedding areas to our food plots and apple trees. We also planted clusters of 3 to 10 spruce for bedding spots all throughout the cut, and caged some of the oak & maple stumps to get stump sprouts growing to help thicken it up. Distances between spruce clusters are anywhere from 20 ft. to around 100 ft. We left the tops in brush piles here and there to protect some spruce seedlings and also any natural seedlings and whips regenerating on their own. The biggest spruce in this cut are about 4 ft. tall now - they are caged. The deer travel is MUCH increased in the new cut.

I hope that gives a picture of what we did, and helps in some way.

yes, that helps a lot! and what you described in the second paragraph is ideal, as has been discussed earlier in the thread. large areas of solid stands of mature spruce with a solid canopy is not very good habitat, and that is NOT what you have in your situation. What you described sounds like excellent habitat with a great mix of scattered spruce along with other tree species and weeds, briars, etc thanks for sharing!

 

[bornagain62511]

I have to correct myself again about how I stated early in this thread that mature spruce plantings are deer deserts around here. I was out for a walk in the snow today and noticed a lot of bed and tracks in some of our mature spruce. What I've noticed is that I had trimmed the lower branches up to a height of about 4 feet from the ground or in other areas, the lower branches have started to die off and fade away, and the deer are travelling through and bedding in these spruce quite a bit. There was a period of 5 to 10 years where some of our spruce were like deer deserts when the lower branches of adjacent trees were still alive and touching one another, creating a mass of horizontal branches which acted like a road block to deer travel and they basically avoided them. After trimming the lower branches several years ago, and some other getting more mature so that the lower branches have died off and somewhat thinned them selves, now the deer seem to be using them quite readily.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Sounds like the deer are yarding up in the spruce. If you have a lot of snow you'll find that the depth is always a lot less in the mature spruce stands. What I have found is that large stands of mature spruce with little openings or pockets of young spruce scattered throughout is PERFECT winter bedding for deer.
I guess it all depends on what you want. Your spruce stands might are useful now. But spring through fall they are probably biological deserts = no food and no purpose to deer.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

^^^^ Agreed. Deer are adapting to a need they have now. Around my hunting area when snow gets deep, deer will bed under large, older white pines that have their lowest limbs sagging to the ground under snow load. They create more or less of an umbrella with very little snow under those limbs. ( think tee-pee ) Any other time of the year we don't see that usage under those pines. I think the snow load making the limbs sag so low creates a perfect shelter for the deer, so they make use of them.

 

[bornagain62511]

Sounds like the deer are yarding up in the spruce. If you have a lot of snow you'll find that the depth is always a lot less in the mature spruce stands. What I have found is that large stands of mature spruce with little openings or pockets of young spruce scattered throughout is PERFECT winter bedding for deer.
I guess it all depends on what you want. Your spruce stands might are useful now. But spring through fall they are probably biological deserts = no food and no purpose to deer.

^^^^ Agreed. Deer are adapting to a need they have now. Around my hunting area when snow gets deep, deer will bed under large, older white pines that have their lowest limbs sagging to the ground under snow load. They create more or less of an umbrella with very little snow under those limbs. ( think tee-pee ) Any other time of the year we don't see that usage under those pines. I think the snow load making the limbs sag so low creates a perfect shelter for the deer, so they make use of them.

True, most of the year the mature spruce stands are biological deserts. The deer aren't really yarding up around here. They are just using the spruce for cover, travelling, and bedding since they are close to our food plots and the snow is not as deep under them. Winter hasn't been harsh enough for the deer to really yard up yet. it's been very mild with no snow until just the last couple of weeks we got several good shots of snow and some extremely cold weather, so that has definitely caused them to congregate closer to the food plots and use the mature spruce more. But I agree, scattered pockets of spruce or scattered single spruce trees amongst other brush, weeds, saplings, etc is best. or better yet, red cedar or white cedar if you can protect them until they are tall enough to withstand browsing. something I discovered yesterday is that Norway spruce are much more attractive to deer than white spruce since they readily browse them. I discovered this because there are half a dozen Norway spruce amongst thousands of white spruce that we've planted. I noticed how the deer tracks were really attracted to the few Norway spruce and then I noticed the lower branches were all browsed off 4 feet up from the ground, and the lowest overhanging branches had most or all of the tips of the branches nipped off. deer will only use white spruce around here if they are starving, I've seen it maybe 2 years out of the last 25 years when the winters were severe enough and the deer density was hi enough that they browsed white spruce. but yesterday I learned how much deer like to browse Norway spruce and it's not just when winters are severed because there are no branches growing on the Norway spruce within 4 feet of the ground while all the white spruce have live green branches all the way to the ground when they are spaced out and young enough to have their lower branches yet. the deer have browsed the Norway spruce every year so that the lower branches never formed and now they are browsing the lowest overhanging branches which they can reach. if all our many thousands of white spruce we've planted over the last 30 year were Norway spruce, we would have a lot more deer and much more attractive habitat than what we have now with the white spruce.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've only seen browsing of our Norways in the worst winters, and then only on the tips of the limbs on the youngest shoots. Maybe it's because there are enough other food sources here in most winters. I know guys on here say their pines get browsed & our pines never do. Just regional preferences and availability of other food I guess.

Our Norways have branches all the way to the ground. The biggest threat to ours is bucks rubbing on them. That'll take some lower limbs off !!!

 

[bornagain62511]

^^^^ Agreed. Deer are adapting to a need they have now. Around my hunting area when snow gets deep, deer will bed under large, older white pines that have their lowest limbs sagging to the ground under snow load. They create more or less of an umbrella with very little snow under those limbs. ( think tee-pee ) Any other time of the year we don't see that usage under those pines. I think the snow load making the limbs sag so low creates a perfect shelter for the deer, so they make use of them.

I've only seen browsing of our Norways in the worst winters, and then only on the tips of the limbs on the youngest shoots. Maybe it's because there are enough other food sources here in most winters. I know guys on here say their pines get browsed & our pines never do. Just regional preferences and availability of other food I guess.

Our Norways have branches all the way to the ground. The biggest threat to ours is bucks rubbing on them. That'll take some lower limbs off !!!

yes, it must definitely be a regional preference/habitat thing. white pine in southern WI will never survive unless they are fenced/caged due to browsing pressure unless they are planted in areas where deer rarely travel or hang out. and yes, deer really love to rub the Norway spruce!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Just as a comparison - we have thousands of white pine seedlings from 5" to 4 ft. tall and I've never seen any of them browsed. If I pull 100 of them in places we don't want them, another 100 will replace them in another year or 2. I cage the Norways we definitely want to survive in certain locations to keep them from rub damage. Once they get to 7 or 8 ft. tall, they can take some rubbing and still survive.

 

[sandbur]

Sounds like the deer are yarding up in the spruce. If you have a lot of snow you'll find that the depth is always a lot less in the mature spruce stands. What I have found is that large stands of mature spruce with little openings or pockets of young spruce scattered throughout is PERFECT winter bedding for deer.
I guess it all depends on what you want. Your spruce stands might are useful now. But spring through fall they are probably biological deserts = no food and no purpose to deer.

^^^^ Agreed. Deer are adapting to a need they have now. Around my hunting area when snow gets deep, deer will bed under large, older white pines that have their lowest limbs sagging to the ground under snow load. They create more or less of an umbrella with very little snow under those limbs. ( think tee-pee ) Any other time of the year we don't see that usage under those pines. I think the snow load making the limbs sag so low creates a perfect shelter for the deer, so they make use of them.

True, most of the year the mature spruce stands are biological deserts. The deer aren't really yarding up around here. They are just using the spruce for cover, travelling, and bedding since they are close to our food plots and the snow is not as deep under them. Winter hasn't been harsh enough for the deer to really yard up yet. it's been very mild with no snow until just the last couple of weeks we got several good shots of snow and some extremely cold weather, so that has definitely caused them to congregate closer to the food plots and use the mature spruce more. But I agree, scattered pockets of spruce or scattered single spruce trees amongst other brush, weeds, saplings, etc is best. or better yet, red cedar or white cedar if you can protect them until they are tall enough to withstand browsing. something I discovered yesterday is that Norway spruce are much more attractive to deer than white spruce since they readily browse them. I discovered this because there are half a dozen Norway spruce amongst thousands of white spruce that we've planted. I noticed how the deer tracks were really attracted to the few Norway spruce and then I noticed the lower branches were all browsed off 4 feet up from the ground, and the lowest overhanging branches had most or all of the tips of the branches nipped off. deer will only use white spruce around here if they are starving, I've seen it maybe 2 years out of the last 25 years when the winters were severe enough and the deer density was hi enough that they browsed white spruce. but yesterday I learned how much deer like to browse Norway spruce and it's not just when winters are severed because there are no branches growing on the Norway spruce within 4 feet of the ground while all the white spruce have live green branches all the way to the ground when they are spaced out and young enough to have their lower branches yet. the deer have browsed the Norway spruce every year so that the lower branches never formed and now they are browsing the lowest overhanging branches which they can reach. if all our many thousands of white spruce we've planted over the last 30 year were Norway spruce, we would have a lot more deer and much more attractive habitat than what we have now with the white spruce.

Could deer just pick them out since they are different from what is readily available?


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