Easiest, most effective way to kill spruce trees

[Yarg]

I planted about a thousand Norway spruce as I started habitat work this past year I was wondering do you remember at what stage they were the most benefit..
You don't regret planting them do you.
thanks

 

[bornagain62511]

You have to treat immediately doing hack and squirt.

Even with the Garlon 3a you need to treat it immediately? or just when using Gly?

I planted about a thousand Norway spruce as I started habitat work this past year I was wondering do you remember at what stage they were the most benefit..
You don't regret planting them do you.
thanks

I don't regret planting them. They were most beneficial when they were 10-20 feet tall and there was space between them with weeds/brush growing between them. once they form a canopy and everything on the ground below dies, there's nothing but bare dirt underneath and around here in southern WI, deer will not browse spruce unless they are starving and I've only seen deer browse them during a couple of the most severe winters during the last 20 years. If I were to do it all again, I would have planted red cedar instead and left more space between them, or planted clusters of 10 to 20 trees with more open space between the clusters and planted other shrubs in between the spruce openings. I'm killing most of the spruce unless they are on south facing slopes, and even there I'm killing a lot of them to allow brush/weeds to grow between the remaining spruce. another thing that happens when the branches from adjacent spruce trees grow together they form a horizontal road block. Before they got that big, I thought it would be ideal and the deer would love it, but deer like vertical cover like saplings/brush/weeds rather than the thick horizontal branches of spruce when they grow together they form a road block. I went through and trimmed some of the lower branches from the ground up a few feet to allow deer to move through the spruce better, and it helped somewhat but the bare dirt below the solid overhead canopy just doesn't offer the deer any reason to be in them. Deer will browse red cedar around here quite a bit, so that would have been a much better choice. Or white cedar which is deer candy, but they must be protected until they get at least 8 feet tall. We fenced in 8 acres and have planted it with mostly white cedar, and also some scattered apple trees and silky and red dogwood, and some choke cherry, the whole area south facing! It needs another 2 years before we can take the fence down and it will be the best deer habitat I've ever seen. There are areas where the white cedar are close enough that eventually they will form quite a closed canopy but lots of areas where they are more spread out with dogwoods and apple in between. We built a 6 foot high 8 strand electric fence around the whole 8 acres. If it's done right and kept very HOT, the deer will learn to avoid the area. It was crazy how much work it was, but it will be amazing when we take it down in a couple years.

 

[MickT]

Immediately regardless of the chemical used. The tree will start to seal the cuts right away.


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[sandbur]

I planted about a thousand Norway spruce as I started habitat work this past year I was wondering do you remember at what stage they were the most benefit..
You don't regret planting them do you.
thanks

How close did you plant them?

I planted some at 6 feet and just before they were knee high I grabbed a bucket and a shovel and moved them .

I should have moved many more. Mine were mostly white spruce. As said, plant strings for movement and clusters or circles for bedding.


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[Bowsnbucks]

I think spruce for bedding or winter wind blocks for deer should have openings between them. These would be clusters of spruce. I've seen more deer bedding in our spruce when there are openings that have grass, weeds, briars, goldenrod, etc. growing in the spaces. Solid blocks of spruce canopy might be good for shelter when heavy snow falls, but not for most other times, as others have said. The ideal bedding situation I've seen is where the deer put their backs into a spruce or 2 and have an opening in front of them to see, soak up the sun, and/or can escape quickly if need be.

In my experience, planting spruce where the sun hits for a good part of the day is an ideal bedding situation for deer.

Lines of spruce can direct travel by deer especially where deciduous trees dominate. When those trees lose their leaves, the spruce provide darker, shadowy cover to travel next to. It's a sense of cover and security for them, I believe. Sandbur has posted noticing similar travel near spruce and balsam firs.

 

[sandbur]

I think spruce for bedding or winter wind blocks for deer should have openings between them. These would be clusters of spruce. I've seen more deer bedding in our spruce when there are openings that have grass, weeds, briars, goldenrod, etc. growing in the spaces. Solid blocks of spruce canopy might be good for shelter when heavy snow falls, but not for most other times, as others have said. The ideal bedding situation I've seen is where the deer put their backs into a spruce or 2 and have an opening in front of them to see, soak up the sun, and/or can escape quickly if need be.

In my experience, planting spruce where the sun hits for a good part of the day is an ideal bedding situation for deer.

Lines of spruce can direct travel by deer especially where deciduous trees dominate. When those trees lose their leaves, the spruce provide darker, shadowy cover to travel next to. It's a sense of cover and security for them, I believe. Sandbur has posted noticing similar travel near spruce and balsam firs.

I was trying to find some of my old pictures to post. Maybe later.


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[Islandguy]

You could try introducing Spruce Budworm larva... Nope, just kidding, you don't won't them. Loosing 90% of our mature Spruce and and Balsam.

 

[sandbur]

A string for a travel lane.


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[Bowsnbucks]

That's the recipe !!! ^^^^^

 

[sandbur]

And a cluster.

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[bornagain62511]

I think spruce for bedding or winter wind blocks for deer should have openings between them. These would be clusters of spruce. I've seen more deer bedding in our spruce when there are openings that have grass, weeds, briars, goldenrod, etc. growing in the spaces. Solid blocks of spruce canopy might be good for shelter when heavy snow falls, but not for most other times, as others have said. The ideal bedding situation I've seen is where the deer put their backs into a spruce or 2 and have an opening in front of them to see, soak up the sun, and/or can escape quickly if need be..

^^^^^^^^^exactly my observations, well said

 

[bornagain62511]

I was watching a video and the guy said hack and squirt should be done when the sap is flowing. Why the different views on the best time to hack/squirt? is this guy just plain wrong? everyone else says to do it when the sap is not flowing

 

[bornagain62511]

also, would it work just as good if I made a shallow cut through the bark with a chain saw around the trunk of the tree and spray the herbicide into the cut, or is there something special about making a downward hack with a hatchet rather than a cut with a chain saw?

 

[Natty Bumppo]

also, would it work just as good if I made a shallow cut through the bark with a chain saw around the trunk of the tree and spray the herbicide into the cut, or is there something special about making a downward hack with a hatchet rather than a cut with a chain saw?

Aren't you then just girdling the tree? Hack and squirt is simple and easy and fast...no chainsaw required. Cutting a shallow cut around the tree with your chainsaw defeats the entire purpose of hack and squirt.

 

[bornagain62511]

Aren't you then just girdling the tree? Hack and squirt is simple and easy and fast...no chainsaw required. Cutting a shallow cut around the tree with your chainsaw defeats the entire purpose of hack and squirt.

I need to trim the lower branches of the spruce to get anywhere near the trunk in order to use a hatchet to hack into the tree, and the only way to remove the branches is with a chainsaw. A lot of the spruces have dead lower branches nearly down to the ground level and they are very thick and stiff and there's no way to get near the trunk without removing them. so in that case it would almost be easier to carry the chainsaw and herbicide, cut off the branches and it seems quicker to just zip the saw quickly around the edge of the trunk to spray the cambium layer. otherwise, the other option would be to go through and remove the lower branches and then come back and go through with a hatchet and the herbicide to hack and squirt. it almost seems easier to do it all at once with the chain saw as I remove the lower branches, but I was wondering if it's any less effective. to kill them by girdling I need to cut in deeper to the tree and make sure I get a complete enclosing girdle. If I cut through the bark just to apply Garlon 3a, I would not have to cut completely around the entire circumference and I barely need to cut through the bark, just enough pressure on the saw to get through the cambium. also, as mentioned above, sometimes it takes the spruce 2 growing seasons before they die from a single girdle with the saw. and yes, they are complete girdles cutting about 1" or more into the trunk, well past the cambium layer, and sometimes they survive for nearly 2 years. with the herbicide, I can zip right through the bark in a shallow cut, apply the herbicide, and hopefully it would die within a few months, I'm not sure since I"ve never tried it.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I need to trim the lower branches of the spruce to get anywhere near the trunk in order to use a hatchet to hack into the tree, and the only way to remove the branches is with a chainsaw. A lot of the spruces have dead lower branches nearly down to the ground level and they are very thick and stiff and there's no way to get near the trunk without removing them. so in that case it would almost be easier to carry the chainsaw and herbicide, cut off the branches and it seems quicker to just zip the saw quickly around the edge of the trunk to spray the cambium layer. otherwise, the other option would be to go through and remove the lower branches and then come back and go through with a hatchet and the herbicide to hack and squirt. it almost seems easier to do it all at once with the chain saw as I remove the lower branches, but I was wondering if it's any less effective. to kill them by girdling I need to cut in deeper to the tree and make sure I get a complete enclosing girdle. If I cut through the bark just to apply Garlon 3a, I would not have to cut completely around the entire circumference and I barely need to cut through the bark, just enough pressure on the saw to get through the cambium. also, as mentioned above, sometimes it takes the spruce 2 growing seasons before they die from a single girdle with the saw. and yes, they are complete girdles cutting about 1" or more into the trunk, well past the cambium layer, and sometimes they survive for nearly 2 years. with the herbicide, I can zip right through the bark in a shallow cut, apply the herbicide, and hopefully it would die within a few months, I'm not sure since I"ve never tried it.

Got it. That makes sense. I know exactly what you're dealing with. I have a TON of spruce and I fight it!!!! Too much spruce. I burn it in my maple syrup evaporator. I burn it in my masonry heater. I make logs roads out of it through swampy sections of my land. I burn my brush piles and then replant the areas with native hardwoods. Just getting sunlight on the ground stimulates and explosion of new growth.

 

[bornagain62511]

I just thought I should give an update since someone was concerned because they had just planted a bunch of spruce in the last year or two and I said early in this thread that the mature spruce stands are "deer deserts" on our farm here in S.W. Wisconsin. As I've been going through and thinning them by hack and squirt with Garlon 3A in order to allow sunlight to reach the ground and new vegetation to grow, I've noticed that there is some deer movement in and through our mature spruce. There are some deer trails and tracks and a few beds. The beds are located mostly near the edges of the large mature spruce stands. In the younger more scattered spruce plantings, they tend to bed up next to a spruce at the edge of small clearings. I still think it's best to avoid large solid stand spruce. the deer don't seem to use them much other than just passing through. smaller patches of solid spruce standings interspersed with openings or favorable shrubs and saplings is best, or just scattered spruce or clumps of several spruce together with openings and shrubs and saplings in between are best. And in the northern states I would focus on south facing slopes where they would get more winter time sunlight instead of planting spruce on northern slopes if possible

 

[MickT]

We focus on S/SE facing slopes in the mid south for bedding too. They are protected from a N/NW wind by the hill but I wouldn’t hesitate to plant some limby evergreens on the upwind side too. I like to have some donut holes in mine too so morning sun to get in.


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[Bowsnbucks]

^^^^ Windblock + sun = good deer bedding area. We've found that to be true at our camp.

Bornagain 6251, post #37 - We've planted spruce on our north slopes after logging and we've had good results with deer bedding and cold weather shelter. We didn't expect that because it was the cold north side, but the spruce cut the wind down so much, I guess the deer found it OK there !! Still better on the south / sunny side, but deer are using our north side too. FWIW.

 

[bornagain62511]

^^^^ Windblock + sun = good deer bedding area. We've found that to be true at our camp.

Bornagain 6251, post #37 - We've planted spruce on our north slopes after logging and we've had good results with deer bedding and cold weather shelter. We didn't expect that because it was the cold north side, but the spruce cut the wind down so much, I guess the deer found it OK there !! Still better on the south / sunny side, but deer are using our north side too. FWIW.

Hey, thanks for sharing!