Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks - (Select posts from a QDMA thread)

[yoderjac]

Well, I'm entering the ranks of the DCO growers. I've gone through this thread a couple times. I received my DCO nuts today. Many had tiny root radicles starting. For now, I placed them in a ziplock bag half closed with a handful of damp long-fiber sphagnum and put it in the fridge.
I just order a couple trays of RM 32s. Once they come in, I'll plant the nuts in them with promix and keep them at room temperature for a week or two. I then plan to water them good and place the entire tray in one of the large ziplock storage bags and place it in the fridge.
I'm going to try this method with several other nuts that sprout in the fall as well. I've just done it with 10 ACs accept I used 18s instead of 32s cause they were on hand. I also have seguins on order scheduled to arrive in December.
My plan is to try vernalizing them for different periods, none, 1 month, 2 months, and 3 months and then look at the results in the fall.
Blitz,
Last year I tried growing ACs for the first time. They sprouted in September when I picked them so I just planted them. They grew well under lights in 18s. I kept a few and transplanted them to 1 gal RB2s and 5" bags. They seemed to stall in the spring. While these look healthy, they were only a foot or so tall when I planted them in the field yesterday.
I didn't know what to do with the rest. I didn't have enough large containers to handle them indoors so I tried a long shot and attempted to force them into dormancy. They were too young and it killed them all.
I realize Allegheny Chinquapins are more like chestnuts than DCO, but because they germinate without cold stratification, they are similar to DCO in that regard.
I've ben interested in any thought you have on how DCOs would perform if you didn't vernalize them at all. If you simply planted them in 18s and then transplanted them into larger containers when appropriate.
If you already have a good answer as to how much or little vernalizing affects their growth, there is no sense in me completely reinventing the wheel.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I did this last year with my DCO and had about a 60% success rate on trees that put on top growth. I used a light duty garbage bag and left the trays in them with the open end of the bag loosely closed. On a few that I pulled out of the cells in January the tap root was almost to the bottom of the 18 cells. So they indeed sent out a long tap root while in the fridge. Of the ones that didn't show top growth I found 2 problems. Some just never germinated period. The others had tap roots but they were rotted...to wet in the cell would be my assumption...

Thanks! Very interesting. I received my 32s yesterday. I went though my bag of nuts and selected 32 that show a root radicle starting and planted them in one of the 32s. I used and XL ziplock storage bag to enclose it. The end of the bag is open but I tied the handles together so it is not completely open. I found the 32s are not stiff enough to handle on their own. I put them in a solid flat before putting them in the bag. I'm going to leave them at room temperature to get them started for a week before putting them in the fridge. I still have some more DCO nuts but since they have not shown signs of a radicle yet I'm just keeping them in a ziplock with damp long-fiber sphagnum until I see a root radicle.
I'll try to make sure they are not too wet.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I would be careful that the seed is not too wet in the fridge. Usually there is enough moisture in the potting mix to make it through the stratification time. If it is too wet for too long the seed will become soft and rot. Or the radicle (first) root will turn black and rot.
I would not put them in a plastic bag.
Good luck they are one of my favorite trees!

DCOs don't need stratification. A refrigerator will quickly dry out any moisture. That is why they have a vegetable crisper to keep vegetables from drying out too quick.
I used an XXL Ziploc bag. I slid the tray in it and left the end open. This kept a little condensation in the bag and I didn't have to water them much. If you don't use a bag, be sure to check them regularly for moisture and water them when needed.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

Hey guys, I have these sitting in my window right now, growing away..... I hope to transplant them to their final destination here in a couple months after the threat of frost is gone...
My question is, when I pull them out of the clay pots, do I leave all the potting soil/miracle grow soil on the root, or do I try to get most of that off of there before dropping into the ground?

I'm presuming you did not use 18s to propagate them since I see them in clay pots. With regular smooth pots that don't root prune, there is a high likelihood of root circling or j-hooking. While the trees may look fine when young, the root constriction caused by this can retard the tree quiet a bit. So, I would recommend checking the roots and manually pruning them to remove any circling or j-hooking. This means disturbing the root system, removing the medium and planting them when dormant in the fall like bare root trees.
For folks starting them in 18s and transplanting to larger root pruning containers, the dense root system created by the air pruning stays completely intact when planting. This is why they don't have the transplant shock of bare root trees and don't experience a year of sleep, and a year of creep before they leap.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Correct.... I didn't know anything about these special root growing objects you guys use.... but it's too late now... I already moved them once, from gallon milk jugs, to these bigger clay pots....
So are you saying they would not survive if I removed them from the clay pots this Spring, and plant them out at their final destination ?

I wouldn't go quite that far. It really depends on what the roots look like when you remove them.
Here is something to consider. When I start trees in rootmakers under lights and plant them in the spring directly from 18s, survival rates aren't great if I don't provide supplemental water because the root system is pretty small. More survive than don't but they don't thrive. When I start them a little earlier and transplant to 1 gal RB2s indoors and then plant in the spring, survival rates are much better without supplemental water than planting from 18s, but they usually don't thrive. Again the root system is fairly small. When I keep them over the summer and plant them in the fall they nearly all thrive.
My recommendation would be similar to CAS, pull them from clay pots and snip the tap root manually. Then put them in a root pruning container (a 1 gal RB2 or similar container would work well). Keep them at home where you can control the environment over the summer and plant them in the fall.
Keep in mind that trees are pretty tough. We can do a lot of stuff wrong and nature can surprise us. Folks have been growing trees in smooth sided containers for years. While the trees may have issues down the road, once established, most will live.
Just to provide a little example, my first approach was to plant trees in volume from the 18s and 1 gal rb2s in the spring. Many of those trees are only a few feet tall, but a few are now between 6 and 9 feet tall after 3 years. In contrast, last year I changed my approach to planting few trees but in the fall from larger RB2s. All of these trees were in the 5' to 6'+ class and had a caliper of 3/8" to 3/4" when planted in the fall. Quite a big difference.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here is a recent picture of my DCOs. The front left and rear right trays have DCOs. The rear left tray where the tops are cropped in the picture are just a few late to germinate chestnuts.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Need some good advice from the experienced!
I purchased a fridge and put my trays of DCO in it. I believe they have been doing well. I have an indoor outdoor temperature unit to track the temp.
My date to pull them out of the fridge is March 17th - about St. Pat's day.
I have a wire cage that allows sunlight and keeps the varmints out.
When I pull them from the fridge, can I put them direct into that outdoor cage as long as watch the temps?
Or do I put them inside my house under some grow lights with reflectors. My grow box room is taken.
I am nervous about the DCOs. I spent some money to do it right and hope I have not messed up.
Thanks for any help.

Wayne,
This is my first go with DCOs as well, so others with more experience may know if DCOs have something special. I will speak to trees in rootmakers in general.
There are several indoor to outdoor issues.
1) Hard frost damaging leaves of trees started in the winter under lights.
2) Cool night temperatures and shorter day length may slow growth or stall trees that have been actively growing under lights at indoor temperatures.
3) Light sensitivity due to increased intensity of sunlight verses artificial light can cause leaf damage in trees started under lights over the winter.
4) Root damage cause by a hard frost.
With you methods of starting DCOs, 1) thru 3) don't apply since they have no top growth. The do apply for me since I started mine under lights.
Number 4) applies to both of us. I've been watching the long term weather forecast. The further out the forecast, the less reliable, but it does give you an idea for planning. Our last threat of frost generally occurs around April 15th. My general plan each year is to watch the weather forecast when we get to April 1st. I have too many trees to take them back and forth. If I don't see any nights in the first two weeks of April that are near freezing I start taking them outdoors. This applies to trees started over the winter under lights.
This year I really think we are going to have an early spring. My forecast only shows one night down to 36 degrees and the next closest is 39 degrees between now and April 15th. That is all still to far out for me to trust it. In a couple weeks, I'll check it again and I may make an early start on acclimating my actively growing trees.
My pawpaw trees are a closer match to your DCOs. They have one growing season under their belts. I kept them in a cold room over the winter and they are still dormant. I actually already took them outside. The difference is that they are in 1 gal RB2s not 18s. Even if I screwed up and we get a night around freezing, it may kill a few root tips but won't likely kill the trees with root systems that big. Also, all of these pawpaws need transplanted. I decided to wait until I see bud swell to make sure the trees are alive before taking time and resources to put them in 3 gals. Since I trust the forecast for a week or so out within a few degrees, I'm confident these will begin to break dormancy in that period. Once I transplant them, the new mix will insulate the roots even if we get a colder night after that. I am taking some risk, but at the worst case, I'll need to move 50+ trees back in doors if there is a radical change in the forecast.
In your case, the issue is the 18s. I have found that there is so little media around the roots in 18s and in 18s, roots hit the side of the cell and are directed to grow down along the side to one of the bottom holes where they are pruned. That plastic is not a great insulator and large sections of lateral roots touch it. My guess is the root system of your DCOs are pretty small. I know from a few of mine that fizzled and I dug up.
So, I would say that your could take them outside anytime as long as you monitor the temperature and are willing to take them back in if you have threat of freezing.
I wouldn't see much value in putting them under lights at this point. There is not much time to get a jumpstart and that would bring 1), 2), and 3) into the picture.
If I were you, I'd just follow you current plant and watch temperature and watering closely.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

The attached photo shows the DCO trays and tub in the cage with the front door open.
Thanks for viewing.

Nice setup. Keep us posted on how they work out. Mine were slow. It is looking like I'll end up with 19 if I don't lose any. I hope your method of germination give you better germination rates than I got.

 

[yoderjac]

Nice setup. Keep us posted on how they work out. Mine were slow. It is looking like I'll end up with 19 if I don't lose any. I hope your method of germination give you better germination rates than I got.

Wayne,
Wise move. The only thing I had outside was my pawpaws that were still dormant. I started transplanting some of them to larger containers on Friday, but when I saw the forecast and noticed a few were just starting to produce leaves, I decided to pull them all indoors. Right now it looks like I can take them back out on Tuesday. I don't see anything close to freezing in the extended forecast, so I may start moving my other trees outdoors including the DCOs.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

How much growth can I expect out of my DCOs this year? I've heard that year three is when they begin to take off and it's been two years since I planted a bunch. Up till now they didn't do a whole lot. A handful may be a foot tall...

This is my first year, so I can't tell you what to expect. I planted my DCO in 18s under lights this winter. They are still in 18s. They vary in height. The smallest two are just a couple inches tall. The largest is almost 12" tall. I'll try to remember to take an updated picture.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I took a picture this morning:

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

None of my DCO has been exposed to indoor light. I moved them in due to low 30 nights.
This morning they went back out in the outdoor cage. I checked this afternoon and the wind and sun dried those trays good. I watered them good.
I have 8 with sprouts about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. One might be 3/8 inch high. These showed up after exposure to sunlight. They will get good sun and temp on Wednesday. I will check weather reports on Wednesday afternoon.
Jack I thinks your DCO tray look good. Should make good trees!

Wayne,
I don't know if mine look good or not. This is my first try with them so I don't know how there are supposed to look at this stage. There sure is a lot of variety in their growth.
I'm at the farm today. They were calling for a low of 35 on Friday so I was going to wait until the weekend to put mine trees outside. They have changed it and the low on Friday is now 37, so I'll probably start taking trees outside as soon as I get back home.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I am thankful for everyone that has taken time to help me with the DCO process. I purchased a fridge for the DCOs.
I like express 18s but would like to have more capacity next winter.
I want feedback from users that have put their DCOs in different trays to give them 80 to 90 days of chill.
The people logging our farm have put in some great roadways with nice wide banks. I can see DCOs getting used all over the farm.
What trays have your used that are great than 18 per tray?
When did you move the seedling out of the tray it was in and transplant it to a larger container?
Thanks for your help.

I started mine in 32s. I put them in the large ziplock bag and put them in the fridge for a month or so and then put them under lights. I transplanted them from 18s to 32s based on advice from Todd. I had no idea when to do the transplant from 32s. I'm sure it was early. I'd say most of the trees are about 4 or 5 inches when I transplanted them. They are still under lights in 18s like the picture I posted above. They are because of the slow growth, and my hazelnuts because of the late start will be my last trees to move out of 18s.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Glad to see others are having success. I posted this picture on another thread related to the hazelnuts on the left, but it is also a good one to show the current status of my DCOs which are on the right.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER OF SELECT POSTS FROM QDMA FORUM

 

[yoderjac]

My latest picture of DCO (and Filberts) taken today:

 

[huntall]

Looking good. I'm in the deep south( Mississippi)
I planted my DCO in 3 gal pots and planted half out when fall came around, but keep half to plant this coming fall. The ones I held back and am able to water and care for look much better than the ones I planted out last fall.
May not be much difference a few years down the road but we will see how the ones I held back do after I plant them out this fall.
In the south ...I like fall planting container trees

 

[yoderjac]

The nice thing about those roomakers is that you can unwrap them and the root ball is completely undisturbed. Unlike bare root trees or smooth container trees where circling roots need manually pruned before planting, these trees begin growing almost immediately and can be planted any time of year as long as sufficient water is available.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TWIG]

How are you liking the superroot pots Jack? Considered picking up a bunch myself. Might want to consider wrapping the pots with burlap. Black pots get super hot in the sun and cause a lot of stress on the roots.

 

[yoderjac]

Twig,

I'm using the Rootmaker Rootbuilder II containers. I think there is another brand called Superpot or something like that. I keep my trees on my back deck. I have the pawpaws on the lower deck so the only get a couple hours of early morning sun and then are shaded by the upper deck and then completely shaded by the house in the afternoon. My DCOs and other trees are on the upper deck. They get full morning sun followed by shade in the heat of the afternoon.

Having said that, you are absolutely right about the black pots getting hot. I've been transplanting them from 1 gal to 3 gal pots as I have time. I've noticed how warm the root ball is in the 1 gals when I open them up. Right now they seem to be growing pretty well. I'm at the farm for a few days, but when I get back home, I'll try to organize them and take some pics where you can see them better.

Thanks,

Jack