Another "To tube, or not to tube" thread

[roymunson]

I have a couple apple trees to replace from last year. I had some 2' whips I planted and tubed. Unfortunately, the deer or wind knocked them over and the deer buzzed them almost into the dirt. I used those cheap blue lay flat tubes that you roll into a cylinder. I always show up at the hunting farm and theres a couple that the wind or deer have gotten loose and they're laying flat with the tree obliterated.

I know its a hotly debated topic, but i've also got some caged trees that the deer browse anything close to the edge and they're stunted and won't get up tall enough to GO.

If I do tube again, I need better tubes. What do you tubers use?

Or do I go bigger diameter cages? I don't mind that, but the browse is so hard they'll just get hammered if I can't get them up above the deer's ability to browse.

 

[Teeder]

On my apple grafts, I used 2 of the flat Tree Pro tubes doubled up to make a bigger diameter, with 2 stakes. Haven't had a deer knock one over yet. Be sure to still use window screen because the mice will get in there.
I left them like that last year. This year they will get caged.

 

[Ed Brodt]

We use free wooden pallets for cages. We have a heavy deer population and haven't lost a tree yet. These pics are when we first started using them seven years ago. All of these trees are much bigger now and producing fruit. We still have them caged to prevent rubbing. We use black weed cloth all around them to prevent weeds and some small diameter wire cages around the bottom of the trunk to prevent moles, mice etc. It is easy to remove one off the pallets to gain access if needed.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

How big is the diameter of the cages you've used? Oddly enough the deer haven't touched my apple trees with 10' of 4' tall cage around them. I thought they'd be murdered last winter when we had 3' of snow so it seemed like there was no cage at all but they were left alone. Might just be a deer density thing though because I don't have good thermal cover and a lot of deer seem to leave my stuff in the thick of winter.

I like the sound of @Teeder 's method. Have you guys had mice nest in the bottom of tubes? would think that maybe lifting them off the ground a bit would help combat that if it's a problem too. Would create even more airflow for the fruit trees too.

 

[Tree Spud]

There really isn't a debate ....

I have used 100's of tubes and they allow for quick, easy protection at a reasonable cost. The downside, especially for fruit/mast bearing trees is the main stem/trunk is it grows very fast and does not develop strong fiber structure. By using a cage, the tree is exposed to wind which allow it to grow naturally and build that fiber structure.

Tubes also are a great place for mice to build nests in and girdle the tree. They will chew through the plastic.

I used 2x4 wire fence that is 4' high. If you cut a 10' length, you get a 3' diameter cage. Any browsing the deer do to outer limbs are probably branches that you will remove anyways. I try to keep lower branches at r above 4'. On branches they browse, this is actually good as they are doing what you would do when you prune back the branch to strengthen it. As long as you keep them away from the main leader, you will be fine.

 

[Mortenson]

My method is buying 150' rolls of remesh. I make 4' diameter cages from them. I've heard some guys go 5', but 4' has worked for me. This year the remesh was a little cheaper than the past 2 years - $150 at Menards. One time I found some free caging material, but it was shorter and made a more narrow cage, so I used tubes inside the cage. Inside the tubes I still used the window screen to keep the inevitable mice occupants from chewing. Most the trees blew past the tube tops in a year, so I promptly removed the tubes. Time will tell if they survive, or if they didn't develop correctly like Tree Spud mentioned. I think if you get the tubes off in 1 or 2 years, my hunch is they'll be ok. But then you're still going to need the cage. Just start with the remesh IMO.

 

[Teeder]

I started with the tubes because I thought they would protect the new grafts better from damage.

 

[Tree Spud]

My method is buying 150' rolls of remesh. I make 4' diameter cages from them. I've heard some guys go 5', but 4' has worked for me. This year the remesh was a little cheaper than the past 2 years - $150 at Menards. One time I found some free caging material, but it was shorter and made a more narrow cage, so I used tubes inside the cage. Inside the tubes I still used the window screen to keep the inevitable mice occupants from chewing. Most the trees blew past the tube tops in a year, so I promptly removed the tubes. Time will tell if they survive, or if they didn't develop correctly like Tree Spud mentioned. I think if you get the tubes off in 1 or 2 years, my hunch is they'll be ok. But then you're still going to need the cage. Just start with the remesh IMO.

I start mine with 2.5' cages for first couple of years then convert to remesh. I can then reuse these cages for next years trees. I agree remesh is the best to use. It is a bitch to roll and cut though. Getting that last 20'25' of the roll undone is a pain!

 

[Mortenson]

haha, I always dread that last cage. I use a 5 gallon bucket of stone (this year I actually used the big chainsaw) to hold the wire down while cutting with bolt cutters. Usually goes relatively smoothly until the final 20-25' as you say! I won't even let the kids help stand on it, if that stuff lets loose, someone might lose an eye. Then all future years you still have to contend with the tightly coiled final cage when you go to open it up and prune the tree and maintain things.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I prefer using tubes for nearly all trees until they get up to about the height of the 5' tube. I use miracle tubes with snow plow fiberglass stakes. Depending on the tree or shrub species, it may take one to three years to get that tall. At that point I make a judgment call on whether or not to remove the tube. At that point I protect the base from buck rubs and rodent chewing with metal screens. Certain tree species like chestnuts will still get a cage until they are much bigger.

I prefer the tubes to cages transition because it is less of an investment and you get to cast a wider net with what works where. Since I don't live on either of our properties, this works well for me.

 

[Tree Spud]

I start mine with 2.5' cages for first couple of years then convert to remesh. I can then reuse these cages for next years trees. I agree remesh is the best to use. It is a bitch to roll and cut though. Getting that last 20'25' of the roll undone is a pain!

I actually cut some heavy wire (coat hanger) about 18" long and attached snap hooks to end of the remesh, and then to the winch on my Mule. I roll out the cahe and anchor with 2 cinder blocks while cutting. As you said, that cut end is deadly if it whips loose, keeping that cut end secure is really important.

 

[SwampCat]

Those who use remesh - what advantage does it provide. I use the standard 2”x4”, 4 ft tall wire and have had some out ten years. Never had a thought it needed to be heavier. Snow?

 

[Mortenson]

Cheaper and stronger. I've clipped a few cages with the 15' bush hog and haven't wrecked one yet.

 

[Tree Spud]

Those who use remesh - what advantage does it provide. I use the standard 2”x4”, 4 ft tall wire and have had some out ten years. Never had a thought it needed to be heavier. Snow?

Deer will push and bend wire fence, remesh is stronger structurally and will stand up and not allow this.

 

[Ruffdude]

I have used these tubes with great success.
Combitube
But eventually you will need to cage the tree because deer just give them a haircut as it emerges from the tube.
Today, I have moved away from tubes and simply wrap the tree and cage it from the start. These wraps are economical and seem to work pretty well unless porcupines fancy them.
Flex guard wrap

 

[Bowsnbucks]

My method is buying 150' rolls of remesh. I make 4' diameter cages from them. I've heard some guys go 5', but 4' has worked for me. This year the remesh was a little cheaper than the past 2 years - $150 at Menards. One time I found some free caging material, but it was shorter and made a more narrow cage, so I used tubes inside the cage. Inside the tubes I still used the window screen to keep the inevitable mice occupants from chewing. Most the trees blew past the tube tops in a year, so I promptly removed the tubes. Time will tell if they survive, or if they didn't develop correctly like Tree Spud mentioned. I think if you get the tubes off in 1 or 2 years, my hunch is they'll be ok. But then you're still going to need the cage. Just start with the remesh IMO.

This. ^ ^ ^ ^ Our camp has done the same 4 ft. diameter cages which are 5 ft. tall. Aluminum window screen about 30" tall (gauged by our deepest typical snows) to keep rodents off the trunks. We've also done what Tree Spud mentioned - let the wind hit them to build string trunk wood, and keep diseases down from good air flow. Heavy landscape fabric covered with crushed limestone to keep weeds down. No probs.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I start mine with 2.5' cages for first couple of years then convert to remesh. I can then reuse these cages for next years trees. I agree remesh is the best to use. It is a bitch to roll and cut though. Getting that last 20'25' of the roll undone is a pain!

Kinda smarts when those last pieces come rolling at our backs & whacks us!!! I (now!!) take a 2 ft. re-bar to angle into the ground to prevent that sneak attack. A second re-bar stuck in the ground - at an angle - where I make my cut, keeps the wild end from rolling back tight to the last cut spot. Then you can remove either stake & slowly roll the cage into the diameter we want. No tight coil-spring effect.

I had to laugh when I read your post. I've been frustrated when I got hit by spring-back or just being unwieldy to work with. Been there pal !!!

 

[RGrizzzz]

I use 5' wire fencing and cut it to 7' lengths. I think the height is tall enough that I don't need a huge circumference. If you're going to use tubes, make sure they're 5' and staked well. Regardless of tube vs cage, use some wire window screen around the trunk of the tree. Stone around the base is added insurance too. Also, it depends where you're planting. It's easier/harder to get some materials to certain areas, woods vs field.

 

[g squared 23]

Apple trees get a 12.5” circumference, 5’ tall cage. Pears grow straight up so they only need 10’ circumference. I used the 50’ rolls of welded wire and that would make 4 cages per roll, not too heavy to handle so I don’t need any help handling it (because I never get any).

The 2nd option is 4’ fencing, remesh, whatever and two 6’ or higher T posts, and you will prop the cage about a foot off the ground on each post.

As the tree grows, you can then make a much smaller 4’ cage to protect from rubbing and move the big cage to another tree.

Don’t go cheap with protection, you are literally going to pay the price either way: either up front or with lost time and more replacement trees.


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[Tree Spud]

Don’t go cheap with protection, you are literally going to pay the price either way: either up front or with lost time and more replacement trees.


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^^^ This right there. They never damage the tree in year 1 or 2, just in year 3 after you have been watching grow for 3 years and are really excited it's ready!

In all seriousness, once you get you 1st fruit growing, the deer will try and push into the cage to get at it. A tube will do nothing to protect against this and they will destroy the top of the tree.